Defining Misogynism

[Aaron Sylvester]

Misogyny is hatred of women, male chauvinism is the perspective that men are inherently better than women. Better at what? I have no idea.

Ooh, ooh, I know this one! Every single sport/physical activity (if that wasn't the most obvious one), majority of construction/engineering jobs, pretty much all extreme occupations (high-rise window cleaners, anyone?), all army/military operations, etc. Just to name a few

The best part is I can say all the above without being a chauvinist/misogynist, just like a mathematician can state "1+1=2" without people calling him a racist, sexist or something else that makes no sense.

How are they being punished by games that aren't for them existing? All joking aside, I am not "punished" by Twilight not appealing to me. There's a market for it and I'm not it. That doesn't mean movies aren't for me, it means Twilight isn't for me, and Twilight has every right to exist even though I wouldn't like watching it. Twilight is to movies as dead or alive or dragon's crown is to videogames.

You would have a point if basically every single movie out there was like Twilight and was made to appeal to idiotic twittering tween girls, and then when guys complained about there being no movies around to appeal to their interest they got shouted down and told, "YOU don't get to make demands about what movies are being made because film is a No Boys Allowed Club so get out."

But that isn't the case and so your analogy doesn't work. Moving on.

The thing about high school was less about my personal experience and more about the general attitude towards videogames predating the mid-late 2000s. It created the environment that allowed dead or alive to get all the way to 8 or whatever it's at. Which is fine. My point is that everything doesn't have to be for everyone. If you're not there, nobody is going to make things for you. So when you show up late and then get angry when people make things that aren't for you it's like "well yeah, you weren't here so we made something that wasn't for you and people liked it so we're making more."

OK, so apparently due to some leftover bitterness about people being mean to you for playing video games or some such nonsense, you are labouring under the impression that no girls ever played video games until a few years ago, which is absolute bullshit. Do you have any idea how incredibly insulting and pathetic it is to talk about all female gamers as though they only showed up five minutes ago and are suddenly "making demands"? There are female gamers on here who were playing video games years before you were even conceived, so maybe you could take a break from telling them that they "showed up late".

Your point isn't just ignorant, it's also hilariously misguided. You're basically saying that video game publishers should continue to only ever market towards their consumer demographic as it was in 1995, rather than targeting their games towards the kind of consumers that are buying games in 2013, because of ... um ... moral reasons? Loyalty to the fans who "got there first" (according to you)? Do consumers' dollars only start to count when they've been buying games for a certain amount of time? I'd be fascinated to hear the business model you have in mind.

You're mistaking me saying "this is why things are that way" for me saying I think things should be a certain way. It's nice when everyone can enjoy a game. I played through both borderlands, portal 2, and saints row with my girlfriend. I just think there's a place for games for guys, or girls, or kids, or adults too. I think its great that girls aren't weirded out by videogames anymore and I would like to see more games that everyone can enjoy. I also like all the blood and titties in god of war and the attitude that it has to be one or the other bothers me.

Feel free to take any of that out of context and put words in my mouth. I'm done.

So you think there's "a place" for games for girls (presumably that place is far enough away that they won't pass on their cooties), but you don't think that girls should be allowed to demand games that are marketed towards them, and you can't conceive of the idea that games could be made to appeal to both guys and girls? You know what, in your very own sulky words, "I'm done."

I think that what this comes down to is that you made an incredibly dumb post and are frantically trying to duck away and backpedal from it, culminating in you flouncing off in a tantrum when I persisted in calling you on your bullshit. As a female gamer who has probably been playing games much longer than you have, I guess I feel confident in saying that it's pretty insulting of you to suddenly show up and start talking about what you want to see in God of War games. You don't have the right to do that. You just haven't been playing video games for long enough.

I have a question though, if the market for female-oriented games was really that big then why didn't it take off a long time ago and why didn't we see a huge shift in females joining game development? See, you said that every single game out there is aimed at men (i.e. your Twilight quote). But if you feel that is the case, why is it the case? Why did it come to that in the first place, why don't we see a 50/50 split?
I'm sensing an underlying message that all game companies are simply stupid, all publishers are stupid and none of these guys have any clue what to do with their massive budgets. But somehow they're still making a ton of profit despite apparently ignoring an entire gender. How and why do you feel this came to be, and why is has it been so incredibly effective at making the game industry one of the biggest in the world today?
Just a few questions for you

 

[Lieju]

That having a vagina makes you inherently a 'casual' gamer?

A question, why or how the hell did Farmville get so popular in the first place if every serious gamers would just laugh at it? While we are onto the topic, who were the biggest consumers of these extra items you can buy ingame?

And?
Games like Farmville reached people who wouldn't be interested in gaming othervise, partly because of what the perception of what a 'gamer' is.

There might be reasons women are more drawn to 'casual' games.
But that doesn't mean women are inherently drawn to the casual aspect of the game.

Or are you claiming women just aren't interested in a story-driven game, or a challenge, or action?

Most women doesn't really get encouraged to play games because there still is a social stigma around it and those prepuberscent boys screaming derogatory remarks doesn't help either. Every time people says in the western region there are 50% of girl gamers, you know they are lying because most of them are either playing casual games or playing hardcore games with male friends.

You are getting on the question about the definition of a 'gamer', now.
I mean, I have seen people argue that Yahtzee isn't a 'gamer' because he doesn't play fighting games or RTS's.
You are not only defining females as 'not proper gamers' if they play 'casual' games, but also if they play them with male friends?

I know guys who only play games with their friends, I guess they aren't real gamers?

I'm not sure what the actual statistics are, (although a lot depends on your definition) but the fact remains that 50% consumers are female, and if a lot of those don't buy games, it makes sense from a purely financial standpoint to try get them to buy your product.

I'm willing to believe in Japan, there are significantly more number of serious female gamers as there is already an evidence of popularity of DS in Japan.

I'm not following your logic here.
Are you saying mainly women play DS in Japan? Because I'm not sure how accurate that is.

At least even from the 90's there were more women in Japan working hands-on in the game industry and not sales and reception.

Source, please.

And I'm saying those gamers introduced to Farmville will probably find interest in other casual games and major Triple A titles played by their boyfriends. And they are the same group reacting angrily to every sexist images they come across.

On what do you base this claim? And what point are you trying to make?

Why do you think there has never been so much issues over depiction of girls in Duke Nukem or Heavy Rain the Rape scenario? Or maybe I'm insinuating Triple A titles can get away with their view of sexism and swept under a rug while lesser titles aren't so lucky. Has to get dragged across the dirt, huh?

Um, what?
Games like Tomb Raider aren't Triple-A now?

 

[Lionsfan]

Do you have any evidence that the sort of stuff he talks about is more prevalent now, than it has been in the past?

As far as the game aspect, what do you mean "expecting game devs to cater to them"? Again, do you have any evidence?

I wouldn't say I've necessarily seen any huge rise in it, more that I've seen a lot of the things in spades. I mean it's not like I took photo documentation of how many girls I slept with when I tried to win them over by listening to them and buying them drinks vs how many I did once I learned that acting like they're barely worth it works way better, or how many of my totally whipped friends got treated like shit and then dumped. I'm not a sociologist and I don't care enough about forum debates to catalog those kinds of things. Sorry. I'm just speaking from genuine experience. If you want, you can look up some youtube videos of women giving legitimate dating advice and you'll generally see the tone of it is either "man, do more" or "woman, expect less," both of which operate on the assumption that the man should be the one jumping through the hoops to impress the woman.

But again, this is a prevalent trend, not a definite rule.

I'm sorry, but that's really not good enough. I mean, the definitions for prevalent and trend is

1: Widespread in a particular area at a particular time.
2: Predominant; powerful.

][

1: A general direction in which something is developing or changing.

So, what you're saying is that the majority of women, and more and more everyday, are turning into these horrible fantasy creatures the video guy was describing. Quite frankly that's incredibly offensive.

You can agree with him if you want, but I think we're gonna need more than just personal anecdotes from a few people before we start agreeing with this guy.

As for the second part I mean, the dragon's crown debacle, hitman's bondage nuns, the huge amount of support drawn for Anita Sarkeesian's "tropes vs women in videogames," there's definitely a large group of women that feel some sense of entitlement to being catered to, or at very least feel disrespected when they aren't being catered to.

And don't get me wrong, this guy is probably just an angry little gnome that can't get laid. He's definitely biased and overgeneralizing. I'm just saying he's not completely inaccurate.

I feel like you're mistaking "wanting to be treated the same as other consumers" for entitlement.

I mean, is it really wrong that girl gamers want to be treated as equals to male gamers? Not to get all cliched and bring up race, but was it entitlement when black people didn't want blackface to be used in movies?

And really, with all the controversies about the ME3 ending, or Dante being changed in DMC, or the increase in piracy, you think girl gamers are being entitled?

 

[Lionsfan]

Misogyny is hatred of women, male chauvinism is the perspective that men are inherently better than women. Better at what? I have no idea.

Ooh, ooh, I know this one! Every single sport/physical activity (if that wasn't the most obvious one), majority of construction/engineering jobs, pretty much all extreme occupations (high-rise window cleaners, anyone?), all army/military operations, etc. Just to name a few

The best part is I can say all the above without being a chauvinist/misogynist, just like a mathematician can state "1+1=2" without people calling him a racist, sexist or something else that makes no sense.

The only one that's objectively quantifiable is sports. Everything else is just your subjective opinion

 

[vid87]

I was watching a few related videos out of curiosity and I thought this video hit some interesting points.

"Women can't hear what men haven't said." As much I support the hell out of this sentiment, I feel like a big problem is that men don't know how to articulate their side of things - see the "men's movement" and all their hate-mongering.

 

[Lieju]

As you pointed out, most vagina's play's towards the "casual" gaming market. In fact that is where most of the female gamer's, and the market for female gamer's reside in.
Some examples:

I would rather stab myself in the eye with a rusty spork than play any of those games,

Clearly your vagina is malfunctioning and sending signals to your brain telling you you actually want to play games.

This is unnatural and wrong for womenfolk.

Seriously, though, even if we assume (for the sake of this silly argument) that women will just inherently flock towards games about fashion and raising babies, why would those games need to be shovelware?

You could very easily fit those themes into a complex gameplay and narrative.

 

[Legion]

I mean, is it really wrong that girl gamers want to be treated as equals to male gamers? Not to get all cliched and bring up race, but was it entitlement when black people didn't want blackface to be used in movies?

It depends on the line of argument used. I see so many different or contradictory concerns that it really isn't possible to use the term "girl gamers" when it comes to discussing changes.

1) Some people are unhappy with there being "sexy" female characters at all.
2) Some people are unhappy with there being too many "sexy" female characters, but not enough "non-sexy" female characters (The Triple A gaming market in general).
3)Some people are unhappy with "sexy" female characters, but only when they are nothing else (Rachel from Ninja Gaiden 2).
4) Some people are unhappy with some "sexy" female characters being in a game, but only if there is not a variety of other types of women in the game as well.

Issues 2,3 and 4 I'd say are perfectly valid concerns, but I would say point number 1 does come from a false sense of entitlement. As it normally comes from the line of argument that sexualising women in any shape or form is automatically bad.

That women don't like it, despite the fact that many women are perfectly okay with it. As is seen by the fact that there are so many cosplays of these characters and the voice actresses are clearly happily to be associated with a game that has them.

The kind of people who oppose "sexy" women games entirely are not all that common, but sometimes the arguments seem to bleed together, or people contradict themselves, which is where arguments quite often start.

 

[Legion]

1) Some people are unhappy with there being "sexy" female characters at all.

Are they really, or are you just strawmanning/misinterpreting? Because I hear this cry of "oh, people are saying that female characters should never, ever allowed to be sexy in video games" all the time, but I've never actually been able to find these people or these demands that there shouldn't ever be any sexy female characters in video games. Not once. Feel free to point me in the direction of people who are actually saying this, but until then I'm going to assume that it's just an oversimplification or deliberate exaggeration of what Type 2/3/4 people are saying.

Note: I did not say they demanded they don't exist, I said they are unhappy with them. So actually, your reply could be considered a strawman, effectively as you are "attacking" a statement I never said. Although I am not going to make accusations as I am pretty sick of people using buzzwords as counter-arguments.

The accusations of Skullgirls being sexist is an example of it. The characters are "sexy". They are also quite horrifying when it comes down to it, they also have back-stories, motivation, agency and are strong and capable.

If somebody were to complain that they are too sexualised, I'd say fair enough, even though it doesn't bother me personally, if somebody didn't want to play the game as they prefer not to play games with "sexy" female characters, I'd say fair enough, as people have the right to not play whatever they like.

But to complain that the game itself is sexist because of it, strikes me as an example of my first point. As the characters have agency, personalities, motivations and a lot more than just being "T+A".

As I said in my last paragraph, peoples arguments bleed together. Some people complain that it's yet another example of a game using sex sells and that's the issue (which again, is fair enough), some people argue against the game itself.

One particular user who goes into every thread about the subject, purely to complain about it would be my example.

 

[Lionsfan]

I mean, is it really wrong that girl gamers want to be treated as equals to male gamers? Not to get all cliched and bring up race, but was it entitlement when black people didn't want blackface to be used in movies?

It depends on the line of argument used. I see so many different or contradictory concerns that it really isn't possible to use the term "girl gamers" when it comes to discussing changes.

1) Some people are unhappy with there being "sexy" female characters at all.
2) Some people are unhappy with there being too many "sexy" female characters, but not enough "non-sexy" female characters (The Triple A gaming market in general).
3)Some people are unhappy with "sexy" female characters, but only when they are nothing else (Rachel from Ninja Gaiden 2).
4) Some people are unhappy with some "sexy" female characters being in a game, but only if there is not a variety of other types of women in the game as well.

Issues 2,3 and 4 I'd say are perfectly valid concerns, but I would say point number 1 does come from a false sense of entitlement. As it normally comes from the line of argument that sexualising women in any shape or form is automatically bad.

That women don't like it, despite the fact that many women are perfectly okay with it. As is seen by the fact that there are so many cosplays of these characters and the voice actresses are clearly happily to be associated with a game that has them.

The kind of people who oppose "sexy" women games entirely are not all that common, but sometimes the arguments seem to bleed together, or people contradict themselves, which is where arguments quite often start.

Like boots said, I don't think I've ever seen Number 1, and about this part of your response:

Note: I did not say they demanded they don't exist, I said they are unhappy with them

the guy I was responding to, he was saying that more and more women are demanding that publishers bow down to their whims.

 

[Uhura]

1) Some people are unhappy with there being "sexy" female characters at all.
......
I would say point number 1 does come from a false sense of entitlement.

This part is confusing me. Why is merely being unhappy about it linked with a false sense of entitlement? I mean, if they are just unhappy about it but don't demand anything, why would they have a false sense of entitlement?

 

[Legion]

1) Some people are unhappy with there being "sexy" female characters at all.
......
I would say point number 1 does come from a false sense of entitlement.

This part is confusing me. Why is merely being unhappy about it linked with a false sense of entitlement? I mean, if they are just unhappy about it but don't demand anything, why would they have a false sense of entitlement?

Poor wording on my part I guess. I chose the word "unhappy" because a lot of other words would come across as loaded or judgemental.

I meant people acting as though they have the right to say that developers "should not" do X with their game. I don't mean people who are demanding they stop, I mean people who are suggesting that they are wrong to do what they want with their own product.

Criticism is fine. Saying that that it's bad that they exist, when they are quite easily avoidable, is quite another.

 

[Catrixa]

Huh. A dude met some bitchy women, then made a YouTube video on it, eh? Seems like a thing. You know, I've met some asshole men, too. I guess I can copy-paste my experience onto all men (except specific ones I like, because they are OK, obviously) and rant about it on YouTube for 15 minutes. I'm pretty sure I can find some sources no one has heard about and claim they're credible, too. And anything is a fact if you say "This is a FACT!" after it three times (it can't be any less, or people might question you). Also, it looks like all propaganda is true again. This is good to know, because coming up with opinions (wait, crap, these aren't opinions, these are facts, my bad) is easy when I don't have to think about them. Huh. How many viewers does this guy have? I think I've got a camera around here somewhere...

This made me smile =)

OT: it took me a good 3 minutes to realize this isn?t satire??
I mean the skull in the background , the armchair, the smoking ?? all this was missing is a bear skin rug.


anyway this should be required viewing for anyone who even thinks of talking to this guy ? Christ??.

(Or maybe this is just a brilliant piece of viral marketing for a new command and conquer game )

Thank you, I like making people smile !

...And if this is viral marketing for a new C&C... Day 1 purchase. I haven't played a game that had me clutching my sides laughing for hours in ages... Now I want to play Red Alert 2 again... (wonder where my disks went...)

 

[lacktheknack]

OT: A misogynist is anyone, man or woman, who is in a state of believing women to be inferior to men.

Misogyny is an attribute of any action, artistic expression, etc, that conforms to the mentality that women are inferior to men.

It's possible to perform misogynistic actions without being a misogynist.

For example, if you are trying to hire one person, and you receive an application from a man and a woman, then by hiring one, you are doomed to perform a misogynist or misandric action. Even if you select the male candidate because he has more experience and schooling, your selecting him was a misogynistic action, because it fits the mindset that women are worth less than men.

I'm not sure I get the point your trying to make there so I'm going to argue with what I percieve your point to be.

You are hiring for a job and have two applicants, a man and a woman. You select the candidate with the most relavent experience and education for the job.
I don't understand what that has to do with misogyny. That decision isn't based in the idea that men are inherintly better than women but that the particular applicant was more qualified for the position.


An example of misogyny would be:
You are hiring for a job and have two applicants, a man and a woman. Both are qualified for the position but you hire the man because you believe that the woman will not perform as well at the job as the man due to her gender.

The first example completely trivialises the actual issue of misogyny in the workplace and in the hiring process.

I hadn't thought about the trivialization aspect.

Dangit, there went my method of deflecting unfair claims of "YOU'RE A MISOGYNIST".

 

[SeanSeanston]

Seems to me that all too often...

1. If a man dislikes women, he is a misogynist.

2. If a man likes things about women and is attracted to some of them because he enjoys their company and finds them to be enjoyable people to be around or do things with, he is also a misogynist who is probably "objectifying" them, and has secret designs on raping them if only that pesky law would stop getting in the way (like virtually all men of all kinds who have ever lived, BTW, natch).

3. If a man ignores women, he is also a misogynist.

I really wish that was genuinely at odds with how it feels a lot of the time

Meanwhile, misandry is often not even treated as a real word. Oh well.

And to use that idea of job applicants to illustrate how it feels even better...

Situation 1: A company isn't hiring a lot of women.
Obvious conclusion: The company is being SEXIST against women! It's not hiring them, because it doesn't think women can do a good job.

Situation 2: A company is hiring a disproportionately HIGH amount of women.
Obvious conclusion: The company is clearly being sexist... because they're only being hired so they can be SEXUALLY HARASSED!

Seriously, I don't want to live on this planet anymore, as they say.

EDIT:

You are hiring for a job and have two applicants, a man and a woman. You select the candidate with the most relavent experience and education for the job.
I don't understand what that has to do with misogyny. That decision isn't based in the idea that men are inherintly better than women but that the particular applicant was more qualified for the position.

Of course, the problem wouldn't even arise somewhere like Germany where if a man and a woman are competing for the same job and are equally qualified... it is ILLEGAL to hire the man -_-.

And in a country where there are more unemployed men than women.

GG, Feminism.

Wow, Western women sure do have few opportunities ¬_¬.

 

[aba1]

I was watching a few related videos out of curiosity and I thought this video hit some interesting points.

"Women can't hear what men haven't said." As much I support the hell out of this sentiment, I feel like a big problem is that men don't know how to articulate their side of things - see the "men's movement" and all their hate-mongering.

To be honest the only hateful feelings I have ever seen towards anything in the mens movements is towards feminism and to be fair many of the feminist ideologies out right hold back or stop many of the rights or prejudices men fight for/against, even still most just disagree with their ideologies which tend to range from womens issues first to only women matter. So no I wouldn't call them hate mongering at best frustrated with a very specific opposing ideology.

 

[itsthesheppy]

Do we really need five pages to come to a general consensus that this guy is a tool?

 

[aba1]

Note: I did not say they demanded they don't exist, I said they are unhappy with them. So actually, your reply could be considered a strawman, effectively as you are "attacking" a statement I never said. Although I am not going to make accusations as I am pretty sick of people using buzzwords as counter-arguments.

Oh, my mistake. Go un then, find examples of people who are unhappy that sexy girls exist in video games at all.

The accusations of Skullgirls being sexist is an example of it.

No, that's an example of people complaining about the design of characters in a single game. More importantly, it's a complaint about over-sexualization, not sexiness. Believe it or not, there's more to being "sexy" than upskirts and improbably massive boobs.

Sorry to hop in on this I just thought it was worth noting that sexy is a state of being sexual while sexualization is the process. So while they are not the same thing they do apply in the same context. As in a sexualized person will be sexy and backwards a sexy person will be sexualized as they both are different states of the same thing and one leads to the other and backwards.

 

[Callate]

If those sexist actions/conceptions stem from contempt, hatred or anger at women or their status as fully realised human beings and/or their status as the equals of men, that's misogyny.

But ascribing those feelings as the motivation of those actions without some kind of evidence really isn't helpful. Reserving for oneself the right to describe actions as misogyny without any interest in the perpetrator's intention is more likely to close conversations than open them up. Too often it's getting used less as an accurate and helpful description than as a "<you/they> are wrong, I win" to end discussion before it begins or render something off the table before it even receives examination.

There is real misogyny out there, including in the culture in which I live and participate; I don't dispute that. There is also behavior that's ignorant, chauvinistic, and/or sexist without it being reasonable to describe it as "woman-hating"- which is what misogyny means. I genuinely think that if it keeps being used so broadly and indiscriminately, while it may be great for blog posts that seek only to preach to the choir, such conversations are going to exclude a great many of the people who could actually make things better.

 

[SeanSeanston]

To be honest the only hateful feelings I have ever seen towards anything in the mens movements is towards feminism and to be fair many of the feminist ideologies out right hold back or stop many of the rights or prejudices men fight for/against, even still most just disagree with their ideologies which tend to range from womens issues first to only women matter. So no I wouldn't call them hate mongering at best frustrated with a very specific opposing ideology.

Yeah, I think the problem is that if a man ever questions anything that's painted with the horse**** "gender equality" or "women's rights" tags, then he's automatically a "sexist" or "misogynist" (Why are they so quick to assume these things anyway? Do they secretly hate themselves and assume that other people also find women so easy to dislike?) no matter how much evidence he has or how much sense he's making.

Also it doesn't help that "gender equality" usually means making things better for women so that they're AT LEAST as good for women as for men, REGARDLESS.

It's almost like: "Why don't we talk about men's problems?"
"LOL, men don't have problems."
"Yes... that is kind of one of the problems I was referring to."

As though men's lives will always take care of themselves automatically no matter what. Which leads me to another contradiction of Feminism where it seems to suggest at the same time... that men and women are equally capable, except that women require lowered entry standards and tons of help (from men and only men) in order to compete with men. Ehhrmm... what in the Christ?

Another thing that bothers me is all of this congratulatory ****e for women who manage to do anything more complicated than tying their shoelaces. "Women in Business" and all this crap.
I'm sorry... you just told me that women could do things just as well as men... now you expect me to be impressed that a woman did something that millions of men do every day?
That just sounds insulting to women, not to mention unfair that it assumes things are so very easy for men and we're justified in highering our expectations for men.
Doesn't exactly seem to help, if people being seen equally is indeed one's goal... and I doubt it is the goal of many of these disingenuous wretches.

It's like men are meant to view women equally, AND pity them at the same time.

Not to mention how Feminists always seem to interpret things traditionally associated with women as being automatically terrible and worthless/shameful, with a woman's worth being determined by how similar to a traditional man she manages to be (without, obviously, the associated danger or lack of sympathy).
Hence why Men Only things are wrong (the men keeping the best stuff for themselves as usual), and Women Only things are perfectly fine because... Christ, who the **** would want that? It must be terrible: it's for women! -_-
(And/or the obvious alternative of pitying them and just letting them have their damn X, Y or Z)

This really "grinds my gears" as it were ¬_q

It's like they tell you all your life to treat people equally... then if you ever do apply the same standards to women as you do to men (within reason, even), YOU'RE the sexist. It's sexist to treat the sexes the same, all of a sudden.

I guess the main problem is that nobody cares about men... ESPECIALLY men. Or, you know, that the blatantly obvious double standards and sexism against men is just suppressed/ridiculed so people don't even honestly give it a chance. Maybe more women would care then, I dunno; some of the more prominent people involved with men's rights seem to be women.

 

[SeanSeanston]

There is real misogyny out there, including in the culture in which I live and participate; I don't dispute that. There is also behavior that's ignorant, chauvinistic, and/or sexist without it being reasonable to describe it as "woman-hating"- which is what misogyny means. I genuinely think that if it keeps being used so broadly and indiscriminately, while it may be great for blog posts that seek only to preach to the choir, such conversations are going to exclude a great many of the people who could actually make things better.

Indeed... and I think it's important to keep things in perspective:

The mere fact that there IS misogyny, is not proof of some kind of mass society-wide problem.

If you think of just about any viewpoint possible, SOMEBODY almost certainly has it. It may be unfortunate... or it may even be an inevitable result of the diversity of human experience, which may be a good thing in certain amounts... but you're not going to eradicate any opinion whatsoever, nor is there any real need to.

Same for modern Feminism itself: if people just ignored the whackos, they wouldn't matter. Maybe they'd even say something now and then that would lead to an interesting thought.