- Apr 1, 2009
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I have a feeling you worry about making too much money because it will put you in a higher tax bracket.
Democrats already proposing austerity before DNC even ends
- Thread starter Eacaraxe
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I said "rust belt, coal belt, and heartland".
Closer but no cigar...
Are they really, or do they want living wages out of service and gig economy work?
That's because you haven't given the historical background a proper think and really considered what the similarities and differences really are.
Stop me if you heard this before: a liberal party that was a fusion of popular, populist, egalitarian ideals that had become a big tent around a singular, decisive political controversy of its time, becomes allied with emergent business sectors, the key figures of those sectors, and the money that flows from them. Over the course of two decades the party becomes beholden to those interests and transitions into a technocratic, economically-regressive, party that embraces machine and quid pro quo politics as its new normal. That period, sandwiched between two economic crises that can be directly attributed to improper regulation and public corruption, aggravated race relations and was incredibly wrought by civil unrest.
Am I talking about the Republican party between the Panics of 1873 and 1893, or the Democratic party between the S&L and subprime crises?
USA
Yea, they really are IS the problem. Trump promised to bring back factory jobs from China and increase coal jobs and far too many in those regions actually BELIEVED that was a fix here. It doesn't work that way. The problem is many in those regions actually still think that is their " identity" and that they can't do anything else. They have to reskill and that will necessarily change who they think they are. We can't magically roll back time for them. Coal is dead. It isn't coming back. Factories are automated. Although many want to rail against Pelosi, back in like 2006-2007, she was laughed out of the room because she proposed basic income as a means to allow artists to be able to study art and musicians to be able to play music. She proposed basic income before it was cool. The reality is we are not going to have enough jobs after the automated revolution, which means we would really need to shift to more of an economy like France where people do not have to work as much in order to survive.
When my friends moved from Belgium to France, they told me it was like being on vacation all of the time due to how France limits the amount of hours you can work so that they can provide enough jobs for the people. That IS what we will be looking at for our future otherwise we will always have a huge gap between the " haves" vs the " have nots".
Of course they want to be able to survive and they are not wrong for that, not at all. They just have to stop living in the past and instead focus on shifting jobs away from dead industries, and that can only be done with reskilling and adapting. Far too many are set in their ways and instead of doing so they wallow in what was and what they lost and self medicate causing an entirely new problem on top of the ones they already have then we wind up with entire regions too doped up to be of much use at all anymore. AND FYI, Hillary had some really great plans for funding for the rust belt and coal.. people were just too busy listening to whatever mindless propaganda blitz at the time instead of just go read her actual plan for them. Her plan was primarily focused on funding reskilling and infrastructure jobs that would shift the entire region from the dead industries to the new ones where there are actually jobs. Her plan was a billion times better than Trumps, but people were too busy chanting " bring back coal" to notice. Those people are just as screwed now if not more for doing so. Hillary's plan was not enough though, nothing short of UBI at this point is going to be the relief people need.
Of course we learn from history, but tbh, why waste all our time discussing that when we have a character limit and it is much more beneficial for everyone to focus on the actual solutions instead? All that matters now is what we do about it.
Just remembered than in 2016, a lot of people were saying we should just let Hillary lose because a Trump presidency would energize progressives and make 2020 a year we get a progressive on the general election ballot.
Now change the dates in the above sentence to 2020 and 2024. Some people are dead set on making the same mistake forever.
Now change the dates in the above sentence to 2020 and 2024. Some people are dead set on making the same mistake forever.
I 100% agree, the same exact mistakes of 2016 are happening.
Once again, the Democrats have chosen a Corporate Overlord Democrat instead of the one running popular progressive policies that might accidentally actually help people but would fuck over the Corporate Donors so we can't have that. So they actively sabotage his chances at the primary to make sure that the old man who keeps spouting off racist remarks anytime he's not using a teleprompter and has the excitement level in the voter base of vanilla pudding wins instead.
Progressives once again tried to warn everyone "fuck around and find out" and now the Corporate Democrats are Pikachu-face shocked when they fucked around and now people are telling them that they won't vote for them.
The whooshing noise is you missing the point. I get it, you guys have massive, throbbing, morbidly tumescent hate boners for Biden. I can only hope stroking those hate boners is worth it while the rest of us suffer for your pride. Let's be real: protest voting doesn't hold anyone or anything accountable. It doesn't work.
If the progressive voters had showed up in the primaries, we would have a progressive candidate right now. That didn't happen and it doesn't really do any good for progressives to give up and go home because they didn't have enough votes. It means we need to work harder instead of complain about everything not being fair. If progressives are not willing to put in the work to get what we can done we will NEVER be able to get anything done. Not listening to what the few progressives we have are telling us just weakens us further and makes sure we do worse next time, not better.
- Apr 1, 2009
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Ding ding! We have a winner! We got complacent and that's on us. More people need to admit that and that continuing to stamp their feet and hold their breath is impressing exactly no one. Being a progressive entails more than just donating to Bernie's campaign and whining about the establishment.
* ahhhemm....* Is progressive* It isn't about " progressives being stupid" it is about people being stubborn when things don't always happen the way they want them to. People just need to remember there are a billion different ways to do things and the path we take to get there isn't as important as the end goal.
TBH much of the propaganda out there is just pushing these narratives drowning out what the progressives we have in congress are actually telling us we need to do right now. Instead of helping them, people are too focused on whatever " OMG so and so said this might happen so IT MUST be True." It is like saying Biden dropped the public option because some anonymous source said it might happen when he is still going around promising people he is working to make it happen and has his plan in his site for all to see. I am betting most have never even read his plans on his site. They didn't read Hillary's either though they just jumped on whatever bandwagon saying she was murdering people and stealing from charity instead of paying actual attention to what was really happening.
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I'm swiftly coming to the conclusion that for progressives like that, it's not about policy victories, it's about punishing everyone else. The establishment Dems, the Republicans, anyone who votes for either, etc. They have so few victories as a result, and even when they do get one it's not good enough for them and tastes of ash.
The Corporate Democrats sabotaged Bernie at every stage. Had it been a straight, clean fight, I'd possibly consider voting for Biden as it is clearly the will of the people to not have nice things but it wasn't. The Corporate Democrats did everything they could to make sure that Bernie was taken down (as an aside, has there ever been in a Primary in the history of politics in America that had a bunch of candidates drop out and endorse a guy that they were beating?).
Like 2016, they worked harder to take Bernie down then they ever have to take Trump down. So yeah, fuck'em. It sucks that it has come to this but I'm not about to tell The Democrats that their conduct during the Primaries is OK by falling in line. They fucked around, now they get to find out. 4 more years of Trump isn't good (although I'm not voting for him either so that's kind of a moot point) but results that tell the Corporate Democrats that they can rig everything in their favor and get away with it I absolutely feel would be just as bad for this country.
And hell, I've said this before and I'll say it again here; even after all the fuckery The DNC and Biden did to make sure he was elected, I would STILL hold my nose and vote for him if he just promised to fight for M4A (The Bernie version, not his shitactular Obamacare). That's all I want (well, there's a lot I want but I would settle for just that; I wouldn't believe him and I 100% believe he'd be lying through his teeth but I'd still vote for him just for the slim chance that he's not lying to us). But he can't even do that. Not only will he not do that, he specifically stated that he would veto it if it somehow managed to get through to his desk (I don't give a fuck about his flowery "balanced budget" bullshit lines; no one ever asks where the money to pay for these constant military budget boosts and worst case, tax the rich whatever the difference between what we'd save with M4A versus our current system but I suppose the rich are the Corporate Donors and we gotta make sure they're protected from having to pay a little more).
You still have 3 months(ish) to change my mind Biden. All I want is to hear those five words and I'm (begrudgingly) yours: "I support Medicare for All"
And protest voting does what about this exactly? Other than nothing.
So once again, I as someone who may not survive a second Trump term, am being volunteered as a blood sacrifice to satisfy your hate boner. I gotta say, it's not encouraging to see so many self-proclaimed progressives who are so eager to punish everyone when they don't get their way.
And if he does say it, you'll have an excuse ready for why it doesn't count. I've heard this song a thousand times before. Your pride is more important to you than whatever progressive values you profess.
No it isn't, the situation is more complex than that, and you need to learn to listen, least of all to people who don't just tell you what you want to hear, instead of wait your turn to repeat the same talking points you just did that you know damn well didn't work the first, second, third, or any other time.
And it's real funny you want to talk about this now, after having been proffered the opportunity to compare Gilded Age Republicans to contemporary Democrats, when you asked what the point of historical comparison is.
All that shit you said? They know coal is going away and isn't coming back, and they also don't trust Democrats and believe Democrats have no plan forward to offer them. Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden can say whatever the fuck they want, they don't trust Democrats and for good reason. You have to have trust for campaign promises to mean anything, least of all to people with long memories and who believe in the importance of earnestness.
You know why they don't trust Democrats? Bill Clinton offered all that shit. What happened? Barack Obama offered all that shit. What happened? By the time Bill's wife came sniffing around for votes making the same exact promises except in slightly meaner language, do you think her word was worth the toilet paper it was scribbled on?
Now at this point you'll say, "buh, buh meanie Republicans won't let Democrats help those people!". I got Congressional supermajorities in both chambers of Congress under a Democratic president between 2009-10 that says otherwise, fuck off with that busted talking point. Funny how these big, ambitious sweeping bills Democrats love to talk about only surface when Democrats know they can't pass, or know they'll get poison pilled. But when something can pass, suddenly it's all "oh we need incremental reform, we need to take it slow and do it right!".
And here's the thing. Let's assume literally every word in this post is bullshit until now. Let's assume Clinton and Obama didn't fuck over middle America. Let's assume blue dogs didn't fuck over the entire country when Democrats had supermajorities in both chambers in 2009-10. Let's assume Democratic politicians were trustworthy. And let's assume rust belt and coal belt voters are actually driven by being "moderate" and "conservative", not "populist" and "desperate". Let's assume, should Biden win, something actually will be done to "help" those people.
Rust belt and coal belt voters saw what's happened in Seattle, Portland, the Bay Area, LA, NYC, DC, and Atlanta. They know, even if the promise is fulfilled, it still ends badly for them because "reskilling" and "new infrastructure and tech jobs" aren't for them. They know it's Democratic weasel-speak for "gentrification", they know what gentrification does to poor and minority communities, and they know goddamn well Democrats are the party of gentrification.
Hillary, Biden, any one of them, may as well get up on stage and say, "a vote for me is a vote for tech corporations to do to you what the coal bosses and Pinkertons tried to do to your great-granddaddies".
I'll tell you what. When all Democratic primary votes are created equal through national same-day primaries and uniform primary rules across all states, or at least unpublished results and delegate counts over a condensed primary schedule, when can have a talk about that. I don't know about you, but I didn't get a fuckin' say in this and there's been all of one Democratic primary my entire life in which my vote mattered -- 2008. Whine about not showing up to vote, I didn't get to vote until after Biden clenched the nomination.
I mean, at this point, we're just going to talk in circles. You think four more years of Trump is worse, I think that we're dealing with an Alien v Predator tagline where whoever wins, we lose. So I'm not going to vote for either of them because neither of them are willing to fight for what I want.
And as to your last sentence, you believe whatever you want about me. I would 100% vote for Biden if he came out and said he'd fight for M4A; whether you believe me or not doesn't matter to me in any way, shape, or form.
To the first point, there are degrees of loss. I'm dead fucking serious, dude: I do not know if some of my friends and family, myself included, can survive 4 more years of Trump. If you can, mazel tov! You're lucky! The rest of us? I'm not hearing a whole lot of support or even general understanding of how much more fucked our situations stand to get. If anything, we're made out to be the bad guys for scrambling for the option that's least likely to kill us. Myself and others in this thread are telling our stories of how much worse it stands to become for us and for the most part, the response from individuals like you, Gergar and Eacaraxe has been a resounding, "Meh."
As I told Gergar12, you're clearly better off than me if you're willing and able to weather another 4 years of Trump. You should appreciate that a lot more.
I don't care about that, I would gladly pay higher taxes for M4A over premiums, deductibles, and copays because it's safer. It's safer to do so because you don't have to fear getting kicked off the insurance if you lose your job, and or the insurance company finds a reason to do so.
Look we got the squad out of the 2018 elections alone, that alone is worth it to me.
The Squad are great. I love them! But they're not enough to counter-balance how much worse my life got under Trump. Again, you're better off than me and should take that for granted less.