Demon's Souls
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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If he doesn't believe the things he says on those videos, or in these articles, remind me to never play poker with him. Game reviewing was never an exact science so Yahtzee isn't necessarily any less credible than any other game journalist that I know of.VioletZer0 said:
While being a fan of Demon's Souls, I can't help but say that all these hate against Yahtzee is just... wrong, and unjustified.
So what if he doesn't get the game? So what if he's not playing it right? I can understand for someone who's on a tight schedule, this game can get tedious and one would not have the patience to truly enjoy and see the game for what it is. That's not his fault, that's just how it is, and it's disappointing.
What I will say is, he's not playing the game right. The game is not even THAT hard, you just need to learn from your mistakes. It's not a game designed to kill your character. It's a game designed to VALUE your characters life, something you don't do in normal games.
Take Uncharted 2 for example. I would do alot of things to Nathan Drake that could get him killed, e.g. running blindly into gunfires or experimenting with a cliff, falling off. But his death would have no impact on my being.
Demon's Souls however, I have come to learn that you can't play the game like that. Once you die, all your unspent progress dies with you on your second death. You learn to be cautious in approaching this creepy, yet atmospheric world. You learn to choose when to strike, and when to take on the defense as if your life depends on it. The adrenaline rush that you get when a black phantom invades your world is a rush like no other. No other games have given me that kind of gut-retching feeling when my character dies with 70000 souls, and the immersion of exploring an unknown area filled with demons, with dangers lurking over any turns is just fantastic. It keeps you at the edge of your seat fearing for your (character's) life.
However I do have to clarify, like others have said, that Yahtzee has not been conveying the right message:
- The game is not cheap - you learn from every death, and all deaths are avoidable unless you're careless, or just not up to par with your level/equipment (like all RPGs).
- The game does not waste your time - YOU waste your own time if you keep dying from the same mistake, without the initiative to learn WHY you're dead. And even if you DO die, you still get a second chance to regain your loss.
- The game is not difficult - it is HARDER than most games; but with an attentive mind, you'll find that the game merely challenges your intellect, not your gaming skill.
- The game is not out to GET you - there are all sorts of signs and hints regarding the dangers around you. Chances are, if there isn't any, the previous victims would have left you a clue in the form of bloodstain or message.
- And finally - you're a one man army against a world filled with Demons. You're supposed to feel like your life is in danger and threatened at every turn. If you just play games to pass time and is not into the experience, then this game is not for you.
In closing, I'm just disappointed Yahtzee didn't get to see the game for what it is. We really have no right to get angry at Yahtzee just because he doesn't get it (Although he did spread a few false information about the game). Yahtzee, I heartily suggest that at your own leisure, take your time with this game and try it again with a more attentive mind. It is not the game that keep killing you, but your lack of willingness to discover your downfall. If you don't have time, then by all means, please just forget about it.
Demon's Souls has really changed how I see video games as an entertainment medium. Sure, many games are fun and memorable, but Demon's Souls... the connection you have with the game is ecstatic - it's a virtual horror experience, starring you.
So what if he doesn't get the game? So what if he's not playing it right? I can understand for someone who's on a tight schedule, this game can get tedious and one would not have the patience to truly enjoy and see the game for what it is. That's not his fault, that's just how it is, and it's disappointing.
What I will say is, he's not playing the game right. The game is not even THAT hard, you just need to learn from your mistakes. It's not a game designed to kill your character. It's a game designed to VALUE your characters life, something you don't do in normal games.
Take Uncharted 2 for example. I would do alot of things to Nathan Drake that could get him killed, e.g. running blindly into gunfires or experimenting with a cliff, falling off. But his death would have no impact on my being.
Demon's Souls however, I have come to learn that you can't play the game like that. Once you die, all your unspent progress dies with you on your second death. You learn to be cautious in approaching this creepy, yet atmospheric world. You learn to choose when to strike, and when to take on the defense as if your life depends on it. The adrenaline rush that you get when a black phantom invades your world is a rush like no other. No other games have given me that kind of gut-retching feeling when my character dies with 70000 souls, and the immersion of exploring an unknown area filled with demons, with dangers lurking over any turns is just fantastic. It keeps you at the edge of your seat fearing for your (character's) life.
However I do have to clarify, like others have said, that Yahtzee has not been conveying the right message:
- The game is not cheap - you learn from every death, and all deaths are avoidable unless you're careless, or just not up to par with your level/equipment (like all RPGs).
- The game does not waste your time - YOU waste your own time if you keep dying from the same mistake, without the initiative to learn WHY you're dead. And even if you DO die, you still get a second chance to regain your loss.
- The game is not difficult - it is HARDER than most games; but with an attentive mind, you'll find that the game merely challenges your intellect, not your gaming skill.
- The game is not out to GET you - there are all sorts of signs and hints regarding the dangers around you. Chances are, if there isn't any, the previous victims would have left you a clue in the form of bloodstain or message.
- And finally - you're a one man army against a world filled with Demons. You're supposed to feel like your life is in danger and threatened at every turn. If you just play games to pass time and is not into the experience, then this game is not for you.
In closing, I'm just disappointed Yahtzee didn't get to see the game for what it is. We really have no right to get angry at Yahtzee just because he doesn't get it (Although he did spread a few false information about the game). Yahtzee, I heartily suggest that at your own leisure, take your time with this game and try it again with a more attentive mind. It is not the game that keep killing you, but your lack of willingness to discover your downfall. If you don't have time, then by all means, please just forget about it.
Demon's Souls has really changed how I see video games as an entertainment medium. Sure, many games are fun and memorable, but Demon's Souls... the connection you have with the game is ecstatic - it's a virtual horror experience, starring you.
Sadly I have not got a PS3, so I cannot play this game, but my basic point was that sometimes developers don't understand the line between a hard game and something that is just annoying. I mean I've played some really annoying games in my time and found myself qutting them because it just gets too much.VioletZer0 said:
I've tried it whilst round a friend's house and found myself just shaking my head muttering something along the lines of 'no, I'm not going through that entire section again just because the makers didn't want to put decently spaced save points in!'.
That the main issue I have with any game like Demon's souls. It's all well and good to make a hard game, but make it fair when you know that many players will die tons of times. Don't make them had to repeat sections over and over again. Perhaps make the game pause when the player enters the menu, because not doing it is just a completely evil move.
A game can be hard, but as stated before make it fair, make it something that doesn't make people seeth in sheer rage and glare daggers at the screen.
Hmm is the difficulty in the game like in mario (3); where if you die at bowser you would have to re-doo the castle, or would it be more like you'd have to do all the levels up to the castle again?
Also difficulty with just editing the health bars of monsters aren't really fix to much. if it's an monster that's easy to beat can take alot of hits and little strategy it just becomes boring..
When i think about it mario games implemented a mid lvl checkpoint later on.. a games not hard because you have to run for 30 mins to get to the point where you died last 'cause that's the hard part of the map..
Also difficulty with just editing the health bars of monsters aren't really fix to much. if it's an monster that's easy to beat can take alot of hits and little strategy it just becomes boring..
When i think about it mario games implemented a mid lvl checkpoint later on.. a games not hard because you have to run for 30 mins to get to the point where you died last 'cause that's the hard part of the map..
A good counter-example is a game like NetHack (Or any roguelike really), where when you die you start the entire game over. As in all progress made erased, saves deleted. But it's not frustrating, because you learn from your mistakes, you get better, and most importantly, the game is randomly generated, so you don't have to trudge through the exact same crap you just did - every level is always going to be different, so restarting means a totally different game.
A game like I Wanna Be the Guy works because even when it cheapshots you, you really don't lose that much progress - you might spend half an hour trying to clear a single obstacle, but you'll have died and restarted possibly hundreds of times during that period, so really you've just been working on the same 10-15 second section dozens upon dozens of times. It sounds frustrating, but it really isn't because you never really feel like you're actually repeating tedious content - if you absolutely can't clear it, you can just quit and come back later and you'll still be more or less in the same spot, rather than having to clear through a half hour slog of boring stuff to get to that one hard part.
A game like I Wanna Be the Guy works because even when it cheapshots you, you really don't lose that much progress - you might spend half an hour trying to clear a single obstacle, but you'll have died and restarted possibly hundreds of times during that period, so really you've just been working on the same 10-15 second section dozens upon dozens of times. It sounds frustrating, but it really isn't because you never really feel like you're actually repeating tedious content - if you absolutely can't clear it, you can just quit and come back later and you'll still be more or less in the same spot, rather than having to clear through a half hour slog of boring stuff to get to that one hard part.
Some of the points are about half an hour away from each other and I believe that is asking a bit much from players, you cannot really say that having to go through that amount again isn't annoying. Also, the lack of an easy, normal and hard mode makes the game even worse of those who haven't played games that much.VioletZer0 said:
In my view a game shouldn't force you into do-overs too much, because it gets boring after that. Also, the whole 'oh you fell for a trap and have to start again' thing is not really fair, it is cheap. So is the whole no pause thing, that is just plain rude, suppose you have to stop playing for a few moment, then what?
The game has good design and combat, but it really is not a fair game, you can normally pause most games, online not counted for understandable reaons. Before you try it, Demon's Souls is not an online game because the other players are not actively fighting with you or against you.
Well, some points took me half an hour to get to, because I was being extremely careful not to get hit by a death trap. Also, thank you for correcting me on the whole diffculty thing because I did not know I thst, I just started a new game. Thing is I didn't get far in the game because I quit it, as stated before there are some people who just get annoyed by the amount of dieing that is done and the amount of death traps, which are cheap shots in my mind.VioletZer0 said:
Also, on the subject of diffculty I'd like to say this. You cannot throw the old 'I'm a casual gamer and I found it easy' thing around because people are good at different things. I'm not good at getting my butt kicked because of some stupid death trap and then having to start an area again. I'm not the idea of person that can forgive a game with some truly bad designs, such as no pausing.
I'm playing Dragon Age:Origins on hard mode and I'm getting killed at times, but I can forgive that, you know why? Because that game will let me save before I go into what I know is a harsh fight, it lets me save then try again from a point not that far away, with all my health and alike.
Demon's Souls does not do this, it plays a very nasty trick on you that is unfair. That's the thing, I'm saying the game is unfair and hard, but I don't mind hard games, I mind it when the game starts to become unfair.
This is why I love Dragon Age's regenerating health. Every fight you start from pretty much the same position (once you build a decent reserve of injury kits) and so the game can throw everything it can at you. It's a sprint, not a marathon. I think games would be vastly improved by folliwng this tack, Ninja Gaiden 2 and Resistence sort of did it, but I can't think of any other game with slowly regenerating health unlike CoD/Halo "hide behind a rock for 30 seconds"Hallowed Lady said: