Demon's Souls

[Majere613]

I'm very cross.
How cross? It's just turned Christmas Day here, and instead of doing Christmassy things or going to bed like a good little (35-year-old) boy I'm posting a comment on this article.

Frankly, I don't give a good long defecation whether or not Demon's Souls is 'too hard'. If that's your take, fine. What I DO care about- and care very strongly- is blatant inaccuracy. I almost said 'lies', but I'm going to assume that Yahtzee actually thinks he's telling the truth.

It is emphatically NOT true that DS "wastes the player's time". If you die before reaching an Archstone, you do NOT lose all your progess. Any items you picked up are safe, including new weapons or armor. Any switches you pulled stay pulled and the doors they opened stay open. Any optional monsters like Primeval Demons or named NPCs you killed stay dead, and anyone you rescued stays rescued. In fact, DS saves your progress far more than almost any other game I've played- if you suffer a crash or power failure you'll typically lose less than 30 seconds of play time. Oh, and if you manage to get back to your bloodstain- which is, by the way, usually placed a little before the place where you actually died so you can get to it without being killed by the same thing, you get all your Souls back too, plus you'll have any you earned on the way.

There is very little pattern learning. Yes, mobs stay in the same place each time, but they react differently, sometimes in suprising ways. I don't remember a single instant-death trap where there wasn't a warning sign, not even including the bloodstains of other players and/or their visible 'ghosts'.

As for a difficulty level setting, there effectively is one- in fact there are several. Your initial class makes a lot of difference- the Royal is generally agreed to be easymode, for example. Once you've killed the first boss, you can not only pick which level to try next, but if you keep dying in combat you can quite easily farm up a few levels to make things easier.

The biggest reason I'm angry is simple. I do truly think DS was one of the best games of 2009, and I've now leant it to a notoriously picky and short-tempered friend of mine who seems to feel the same way if the number of hours he's logged on it so far are any indication. The idea that there are going to be people out there who never play it- or possibly worse, briefly try it only to die early and just assume the review was accurate and ditch it- makes me very sad. The fact that a lot of those same people are then going to go give their money to pushers of the same old shovelware instead makes me angry. And the fact that because of that, the chances of us seeing another game anything like as genuinely challenging and entertaining released outside of Japan are once again reduced makes me bloody furious.

Yahtzee, if you even read this which I'm 90% sure you won't, either give up on ZP and move into more general comedy, or actually start reviewing the bloody things properly rather than doing a half-arsed job and then writing a quarter-arsed justification for it.

Merry bloody Christmas.

 

[The Deadpool]

I could put you in a room with no idea how to defeat a boss and give them a one hit kill move that they spam that has a 90 foot wide range in a room that is only 110 feet wide for the player.

Now you don't know that pressing x b x a x b b b b c b b b b c b c b c c c c c start will kill the monster. So when it kills you it is indeed your fault. Because a mistake you made.

Spoken as someone who's clearly never played the game...

Imagine instead the monster has four attacks, all of which do more than 50% of of health worth of damage. All are telegraphed at least one second in advance. All can be dodged or blocked. That's more like the battles in Demon's Souls...

 

[theultimateend]

I could put you in a room with no idea how to defeat a boss and give them a one hit kill move that they spam that has a 90 foot wide range in a room that is only 110 feet wide for the player.

Now you don't know that pressing x b x a x b b b b c b b b b c b c b c c c c c start will kill the monster. So when it kills you it is indeed your fault. Because a mistake you made.

Spoken as someone who's clearly never played the game...

Imagine instead the monster has four attacks, all of which do more than 50% of of health worth of damage. All are telegraphed at least one second in advance. All can be dodged or blocked. That's more like the battles in Demon's Souls...

Understanding point fail. Good job.

Also curious how much money you'd like to bet on that assumption of yours. I'm looking to make a few bucks.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

"The problem with Demon's Souls isn't that it's hard, but that it purposefully wastes player's time."

Isn't that.....the whole point of games? To waste our time?

 

[Stevepinto3]

So yeah, the email address at the end should yield interesting results.

 

[Majere613]

DS was Gamespot's GOTY this year. I can't believe that I'm actually agreeing with them over Yahtzee, but I am.

In some ways, a sad day.

 

[thedrik]

Demon`s Souls didn`t waste my time. Wow. Isn`t that weird? I`m not a gamer then?

The problem with Yahtzee is that he thinks that the way a game affects him is the way it affects everyone, like a universal rule. A lot of people appreciate this game, and a lot of people like their time wasted.

The dumb thing I`m about to say is the thing I got bashed for in the past but here I go. I found my first New Game of Demon`s Souls easy. Yeah I said it? What? Instead of wasting my time dying again and again I actually played the game like someone who owns a fucking brain. I applied the right tactics and I spent a lot of time leveling and equipping my character. I did not go to 1-2 the second moment after I beat the easiest boss of the game. So yeah, the game wasted the time I used it to level up but it was damn fun.

I also like the way the game doesn`t tell you shit, I like the way is hard to compare items and the different rune signs for stats. I like that the story is thin and you no almost nothing about the world, it lets you speculate.

People are entitled to opinions and I don`t say that Yahtzee is wrong, it is just the way he experienced the game, thus true. This is the kind of game that you either love or hate, and its developers knew that. I guess what I`m trying to say is that no review will ever be more than just an opinion. And Yahtzee is just another reviewer, he just talks faster...

 

[13752]

I'm with you on this yahtzee. I sent mmy e-mail to Michael Atkinson.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dear Mr.Atkinson

Do you not think it's perhaps time to stop living in the 30s and actually modernise and accept the changes in society? Why do you crusade against the approval of violent videogames in australia when there's only a handful of cases where children (mostly mentally troubled) can be loosely connected to videogame violence (I'd also like to point out if these flimsy allogations can be seen as valid then there's outweighing proof against this weak correlation as videogames being an outlet for violence rather than a feeder). I'm confused as to what exactly you are trying to protect people from and why you do this at the expense of so many? 18+ videogames outsell any other rating massively! It is obvious people enjoy playing them, so why put their entertainment at expense? And to what end? Violent videogames should only offend people who actually play them, not grumbling outsiders who fail to even understand what it is that is offensive about them (driven by a deluded media; see Fox News' slandering of Mass Effect: here's a link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0kdm7fg804). I honestly fail to understand how you can argue against the allowance of harmless videogames into Australia. I've always seen the rating system as a complete joke and can safely say videogames have never affected me in my life as I, unlike your supporters, can distinguish between Grand Theft Auto and reality.

As for protecting the children, well I will just say it is not the government's responsibility to parent children. that's for parents. and if they want their children to play violent videogames the state shouldn't question this.

So to summarise, your anti-violent videogame crusade puzzles me. You seem to ride of the support of a confused base of support deeply in the minority campaigning a deeply flawed and unproven belief. I doubt that my e-mail has swayed your beliefs however, but maybe I can give you food for thought.

Also I would like to quote you on a recent statement you made. "[the approval of the 18+ rating in Australia] is a question of a small number of very zealous gamers trying to impose their will on society -- and, I think, harm society," I'm sorry, but I cannot take this seriously. First of all, we are far more than a minority. Secondly, we're not imposing our will. We're not imposing anything on anybody. What YOU are doing, however, is imposing YOUR WILL on US! We're not forcing anybody to play these violent videogames you campaign against, and if they find the material questionable then they don't have to play it! But it isn't for you to say that we shouldn't play it because YOU don't like it! What kind of democracy is that I ask you!

You trouble me as being a severely backwards thinking induvidual whose failure to modernise and, quite frankly, SEE SENSE, is holding us back. I hope you begin to realise how ridiculous your campaign is.

 

[13752]

"The problem with Demon's Souls isn't that it's hard, but that it purposefully wastes player's time."

Isn't that.....the whole point of games? To waste our time?

waste time whilst providing entertainment, which Demon Souls doesn't do when you get butchered far from your checkpoint and have to backtrack all over again.

 

[yzzlthtz]

Extra Punctuation: Demon's Souls

The problem with Demon's Souls isn't that it's hard, but that it purposefully wastes player's time.

Read Full Article

It only wastes your time if you absolutely dislike playing the game. I found the prolongation of game-play fine, since there are so many ways to confront foes, and the dispatching of enemies was always a way to get better at the controls. Levels, designed from corner to corner with great love and attention to detail, are meant to be played again and again, in single player, in multiplayer PvE and PvP, at different world tendencies, and in playthrough after playthrough at increasing difficulties.
But to each his own. If you don't particularly like the combat system, then the game might be tedious. I love the action in this game, and couldn't get enough of it. There's ultimately no real tangible reward to playing a video game other than playing it, and any "reward" in a game is ultimately useless. If you feel like playing a game is a waste of your time, then you shouldn't be playing games (or that game) in the fist place.
I've played super mario 3 hundreds of times, and loved every playthrough.

 

[yzzlthtz]

I think the crux of the argument is: "how difficult is too difficult"?

See, some people die, lose half an hour and go "Awww man, this game sucks what a waste of my time." While some people die, lose half an hour and go "Well, I better not die again."

One may see the sparse use of checkpoints (and, btw, they ARE there. You may not respawn where you die, but you CAN open shortcuts so you die you don't have to go through the whole stage again) as a deterrement. As making the game too hard for the sake of making the game too hard. One may also see it as an incentive, to get better at the game.

Demon's Souls is scary. It's quiet, moody, desolate. You're alone and death stalks at every corner. But you're only scared if that death MEANS something.

Every encounter can lead to your death. But every encounter can also, just as easily, lead to your taking 0 damage. If you respawn five minutes earlier, death becomes MEANINGLESS. The game loses its fear, cuz all you have to do is rush headlong and use trial and error to win.

But if you respawn a HALF hour ago, you don't WANT to depend on trial and error, because that's a waste of time. The game then forces you into being careful. Survival through paranoia. You block at every turn, dodge roll at the slightless noises, so on so forth.

Demon's Souls challenge is intrisically tied into its world. Its ambiance, its immersion, is all tied into its challenge. Make the game easier and you lose all that makes the game good...

if this was facebook, i'd be clickint the "like" button

i'd also like to say, the game is never cheap. if you get your ass handed to you, your either rushing in, using the wrong tactic/equipment or you just are not at the level required yet. the games pretty open once you get passed 1-1, go elsewhere until you level.

also, the game maybe tough, but its never cheap:
-blue eyed knights can eat health, it also means that they too are vunerable for the same amout of time as you would be eating health.
-play halo3 on legendary,pump two duel wielded clips in to a brutes face and watch him kill you with three shots to the chest, thats cheap (im not saying halo3 is chheap, saying this type of mechanic for difficulty is)

Yeah, I thought the lack of checkpoints was ok and indeed making you play more carefully, but up to a certain point. DS crosses the line many times, and the more I played the more unbearable the game was becoming. I cleared 1-1, 1-2, 2-1, farmed 4-1 a lot, thought it was ok. Then I go to kill Flamelurker on 2-2, and he kills me many times, because, you know what, I am HUMAN and i may misstime a roll once every 5 fucking minutes and that's enough for him to kill you. And then I have to go through ALL THOSE FUCKING TUNNELS again, with the giant bugs that take 2 minutes each to kill, again, and again, and again, and again, it's mind-numbingly boring and tedious, I mean seriously. There is a line between "caution through paranoia" and "you know what, fuck this piece of shit game", and unless you have INHUMAN patience or are semi-comatose, you are bound to belong to the latter category. I like games that test my skill, not my patience, sorry if that's too Casual for some...

But there are checkpoints, decidedly so, in most worlds. Levels 1-1, 1-3, 2-1, 3-1, 3-2, 5-2, all the longest levels in the game, have checkpoints in the form of unlockable areas of the level, usually two or three! These are checkpoints, by every definition. This number of checkpoints far exceeds the proposed number of checkpoints, zero.

So that's not even an argument. Which is kind of funny. No?

 

[yzzlthtz]

"The problem with Demon's Souls isn't that it's hard, but that it purposefully wastes player's time."

Isn't that.....the whole point of games? To waste our time?

waste time whilst providing entertainment, which Demon Souls doesn't do when you get butchered far from your checkpoint and have to backtrack all over again.

For the love of GOD.

IT HAS CHECKPOINTS YAHTZEE WAS JUST TOO FUCKING STUPID TO FIND THEM!

OKAY? GOT IT? GOOD!

Oh and before you say "Well checkpoints should be automatic" the old Sonic games didn't need them to be out in the open, neither did Donkey Kong, suck it up.

Let us count the checkpoints:

1-1: 2
1-3: 1
2-1: 2
3-1: 3
3-2: 2
5-2: 1

lessee....11?

 

[The Deadpool]

Understanding point fail. Good job.

Oh I get the point you TRIED to make, the problem is that your attempt had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME IN QUESTION.

It's like my saying "imagine a game where all enemies kill you in one hit, and whenver you die you return to stage one with no levels or items or anything. And it's 30 hours long. But you get 1 dollar for every 1 step you took before dying. Would that then be a waste of time?"

Sure, I've shown that a game can have long checkpoints and not waste your time, BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE GAME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. Thus, it would have been a wasted point.

1-1: 2

Nitpick. don't remember the game well enough to talk about the rest, but 1-1- has 3 checkpoints...

 

[yzzlthtz]

Understanding point fail. Good job.

Oh I get the point you TRIED to make, the problem is that your attempt had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME IN QUESTION.

It's like my saying "imagine a game where all enemies kill you in one hit, and whenver you die you return to stage one with no levels or items or anything. And it's 30 hours long. But you get 1 dollar for every 1 step you took before dying. Would that then be a waste of time?"

Sure, I've shown that a game can have long checkpoints and not waste your time, BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE GAME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. Thus, it would have been a wasted point.

1-1: 2

Nitpick. don't remember the game well enough to talk about the rest, but 1-1- has 3 checkpoints...

Hmmm...there are kind of 3 yes, you're right, but only a given 2 of these are necessarily relevant to progressing to the boss, so I counted 2.

 

[theultimateend]

Oh I get the point you TRIED to make, the problem is that your attempt had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME IN QUESTION.

It's like my saying "imagine a game where all enemies kill you in one hit, and whenver you die you return to stage one with no levels or items or anything. And it's 30 hours long. But you get 1 dollar for every 1 step you took before dying. Would that then be a waste of time?"

Sure, I've shown that a game can have long checkpoints and not waste your time, BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE GAME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. Thus, it would have been a wasted point.

I love the use of caps. Good way to point out that you haven't the slightest clue why you are upset. Generally speaking when you scream in a discussion you aren't worth discussing with.

But I'll point it out regardless. Did I ever say I was talking about the game? Did I mention that my point was literally carbon copy of how this particular game played out?

No infact I was just pointing out how your point doesn't always validate the issue. Sure it IS someone's fault if they die in a game but that doesn't get the game off the hook.

But going into that point further would be a waste of my time. When you learn to grow up and figure out how formatting works better than caps lock (or held shift) get back to me.

It was cute though. I like the big boy pants posting style.

 

[The Deadpool]

Hmmm...there are kind of 3 yes, you're right, but only a given 2 of these are necessarily relevant to progressing to the boss, so I counted 2.

Ahh, but backtracking is involved, especially if you want to loot the Dragon Roost at higher levels. So all three count.

Also, 2-2 and 5-1 have quite a few shortcuts that allow one to avoid most of the stage, even on the first playthrough, without having to unlock anything. 4-1 has that too, but I'm 90% sure it's unintentional...

I love the use of caps. Good way to point out that you haven't the slightest clue why you are upset. Generally speaking when you scream in a discussion you aren't worth discussing with.

But I'll point it out regardless. Did I ever say I was talking about the game? Did I mention that my point was literally carbon copy of how this particular game played out?

No infact I was just pointing out how your point doesn't always validate the issue. Sure it IS someone's fault if they die in a game but that doesn't get the game off the hook.

But going into that point further would be a waste of my time. When you learn to grow up and figure out how formatting works better than caps lock (or held shift) get back to me.

It was cute though. I like the big boy pants posting style.

Never quite understood why kids nowadays think caps= screaming. It's WRITING. NOTHING means screaming in WRITING.

Caps are used for EMPHASIS. See how your eyes were drawn quickly to the captalized portion of the post? That's its JOB.

And, if in a discussion about the validity of Demon's Souls as a form of entertainment, and Yahtzee's thoughts on the matter, you feel like making a point that has no bearing on EITHER subject, then it's hardly MY fault. Perhaps you should find a more fitting topic to make your post...

 

[yzzlthtz]

What really disappoints me about Yahtzee's observations is how absolute he is about them. Along comes a game that defies all the tropes of spoon feeding the player and no ramifications, a game that goes out of its way to never break character for any mechanics, and he finds one arbitrary notion to harp on while ignoring the fact that a game came along that defied so many of the standard rules of accessibility and difficulty, and multiplayer, rules he himself has harped on in the past. Not an iota of recognition, just "I'm too busy to waste my time on this". I'll always respect him as an entertainer, but as a gamer and a reviewer, he sometimes fails to endear me.