You can have all the time in the world, but enough rage quits will have a player turning to another game. It sounds like a very serious issue to have in a game like this.Ryuk2 said:
Demon's Souls
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I doubt Yahtzee is the type to easily bend to pressure; lord knows I don't expect to see a FFXIII review come March.malestrithe said:
Though Japanese, I wouldn't classify this one in the JRPG genre. He doesn't hate it because it's Japanese or shares any likeness to the JRPG format (and it doesn't sound like it does), he hates it because it was designed with limited checkpoints and without difficulty settings.
He bowed to peer pressure a few times before in the past: SSBB and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. This feels like he has given into peer pressure as well.kawaiiamethist said:
Demon's Souls is the typical JRPG experience: start the game weak as a kitten, then after you gain enough levels, like 30 or 40, the monsters get easier until you move onto the next area, then you have to grind yourself silly once again until the threshold is once again reached. Eventually, after enough gameplay, you fight God. While it does not actually tell you what way to go, Demon's Souls does kind of want you to stick to one path: go to each area and go through the first part of it to kill the first area boss. While it is possible to do thing out of order, it is not really recommended.
Western RPG's are different, I am referring to post 2005 western rpgs. You are free to travel around where ever you want and do whatever you want story be damned. You are capable of killing almost anything from level one and by level 10, if you build right, it is possible to kill the rest.
Demon's Souls is a JRPG at its heart, but it is dressed up in the kit of the Western RPG.
As for the stereotypical JRPG where there is no feedback from you as to how characters progress, I have not seen that game in almost 6 years. The modern JRPG give you too much control as to how the characters progress. Not counting sequels and spinoffs all the Final Fantasies past 10 give you too much control over character progression. Sphere Grid, License Board, the upcoming Crystarium system,
Shattered Memories has a bit of the same problem Brutal Legend has by not telling you clear instructions. I don't know how to proceed.
Yahtzee, I loved this video! And I love Demon's Souls, too. Just made me laugh harder, as all the deaths are really accurate...except maybe the first one. Please tell me you got past the first skeleton?
I find that rolling to the side is the best evasive maneuver, but it all depends, really. If your up against someone with a long pointy stick, stepping back obviously won't help you as he thrusts forward. Facing a slashing weapon, though, stepping back becomes a usable option, as rolling to the side still gets you slashed.
If you were going purely for comedic effect, the video is a resounding success. But as a review, I can see why you did the 'Extra Punctuation'. Even in that column, though, I'm not sure that you mention how checkpoints do occur more often than just after you get to the boss. At least half of the stages have a checkpoint before the boss that can be unlocked...that, or once you open the boss door, the boss isn't that far from the entrance point. I find that most of the stages without checkpoints are some of the shorter stages in the game...I also think that this is intentional. Once a dragon roasts you in stage 2 (mind you, the same thing happens in the first level...maybe you should've seen it coming?) it's all too easy to run the length of the bridge without getting a scratch. Do this 3 times, and you're at the boss.
Personally, I wouldn't have wanted any more checkpoints in this game, as, odd as it sounds, it would make it too easy. More than that, it would lose a lot of the fun! Getting sent back to the beginning of the stage forces you to get better at the game - if there were checkpoints, I'd say it would be even harder to make progress, as you woudn't be getting as much experience/money (they're the same thing, another way the game is difficult - your choices are very important).
Games that make concessions to me as a player run the risk of losing my interest. Games should be challenging, and I think it's criminal that they're putting an easy mode in Megaman 10!
Back on topic, though, Demon's Souls saves every time you pick up an item, or change your equipment. So, if you have shit to do, you actually can leave the game as often as you like without needing to worry about losing progress, unlike a game with "save points" (I hate save points - being able to save whenever is a blessing).
Or, if you're a pansy (I admit, there's at least one boss that made me so mad that I did this and found out how to cheat), you can quit the game right after you die in order to re-spawn at the last point your game saved (so long as you quit before the game has a chance to save, putting you back at the start of the level). In addition, there are items and a spell (miracle, technically) that will take you back to the nexus so that you can spend your souls. Or there are NPC characters that you'll find who will take your experience and give you better armor or weapons - getting to that point with enough exp for a new weapon is progress, to me. When you die, you keep your items.
When you have to do a review within the span of a week, I doubt that you truly have time to appreciate hardly any of the games that you play, unfortunately. It also doesn't help that you admit to not reading instruction manuals, as they often explain the finer points of a game, without having to resort to tutorials (tutorials suck). Not reading the manual also gives me a reason for why you hate fighting games, as those pages show you how to do all the moves!
Last thing I'll say, here: maybe it's because I've played so many retro games that I can appreciate a game like Demon's Souls. When you play certain NES games, you have to beat them from start to finish in one sitting, else leave your system on for hours. Demon's Souls is pretty unforgiving, but it does give you checkpoints and saves...I'd say you get them often enough to stave off frustration. That first level is MEANT to be frustrating, though! When the game sends you to the nexus for the first time, that's not the end of the tutorial. After beating the Phalanx and gaining the ability to spend your souls on level ups - THAT is the end of the tutorial. From then on, at least for me, the game became FAR easier
I've gone on for too long, though. I watch and read your stuff for the comedy, not for serious recommendation. I just hope that your ramblings don't turn people off of a legitimately good game; one that, I would argue, can't be understood in a week.
I find that rolling to the side is the best evasive maneuver, but it all depends, really. If your up against someone with a long pointy stick, stepping back obviously won't help you as he thrusts forward. Facing a slashing weapon, though, stepping back becomes a usable option, as rolling to the side still gets you slashed.
If you were going purely for comedic effect, the video is a resounding success. But as a review, I can see why you did the 'Extra Punctuation'. Even in that column, though, I'm not sure that you mention how checkpoints do occur more often than just after you get to the boss. At least half of the stages have a checkpoint before the boss that can be unlocked...that, or once you open the boss door, the boss isn't that far from the entrance point. I find that most of the stages without checkpoints are some of the shorter stages in the game...I also think that this is intentional. Once a dragon roasts you in stage 2 (mind you, the same thing happens in the first level...maybe you should've seen it coming?) it's all too easy to run the length of the bridge without getting a scratch. Do this 3 times, and you're at the boss.
Personally, I wouldn't have wanted any more checkpoints in this game, as, odd as it sounds, it would make it too easy. More than that, it would lose a lot of the fun! Getting sent back to the beginning of the stage forces you to get better at the game - if there were checkpoints, I'd say it would be even harder to make progress, as you woudn't be getting as much experience/money (they're the same thing, another way the game is difficult - your choices are very important).
Games that make concessions to me as a player run the risk of losing my interest. Games should be challenging, and I think it's criminal that they're putting an easy mode in Megaman 10!
Back on topic, though, Demon's Souls saves every time you pick up an item, or change your equipment. So, if you have shit to do, you actually can leave the game as often as you like without needing to worry about losing progress, unlike a game with "save points" (I hate save points - being able to save whenever is a blessing).
Or, if you're a pansy (I admit, there's at least one boss that made me so mad that I did this and found out how to cheat), you can quit the game right after you die in order to re-spawn at the last point your game saved (so long as you quit before the game has a chance to save, putting you back at the start of the level). In addition, there are items and a spell (miracle, technically) that will take you back to the nexus so that you can spend your souls. Or there are NPC characters that you'll find who will take your experience and give you better armor or weapons - getting to that point with enough exp for a new weapon is progress, to me. When you die, you keep your items.
When you have to do a review within the span of a week, I doubt that you truly have time to appreciate hardly any of the games that you play, unfortunately. It also doesn't help that you admit to not reading instruction manuals, as they often explain the finer points of a game, without having to resort to tutorials (tutorials suck). Not reading the manual also gives me a reason for why you hate fighting games, as those pages show you how to do all the moves!
Last thing I'll say, here: maybe it's because I've played so many retro games that I can appreciate a game like Demon's Souls. When you play certain NES games, you have to beat them from start to finish in one sitting, else leave your system on for hours. Demon's Souls is pretty unforgiving, but it does give you checkpoints and saves...I'd say you get them often enough to stave off frustration. That first level is MEANT to be frustrating, though! When the game sends you to the nexus for the first time, that's not the end of the tutorial. After beating the Phalanx and gaining the ability to spend your souls on level ups - THAT is the end of the tutorial. From then on, at least for me, the game became FAR easier
I've gone on for too long, though. I watch and read your stuff for the comedy, not for serious recommendation. I just hope that your ramblings don't turn people off of a legitimately good game; one that, I would argue, can't be understood in a week.
Demon's Souls saves every time you change your equipment or pick up a new item...so how is it that people, including Yahtzee, find their time being wasted? For all the naysayers, if you just can't seem to get any better and proceed with a level, you can quit the game before it has a chance to save when you die. Re-load the file, it'll put you back to where you last got an item or changed a weapon, and you can try again. I found this out on the False King, where I had my first rage-quit out of the whole game (stealing levels? AND killing me? Seriously?). It took me umpteen tries to beat him, reloading every time right on his doorstep. Really, though, that level isn't all that difficult, and I might have been better off just playing through it the hard way (and gaining more experience in the process). But I digress.
Is the point of a game to see it through to the end? Yeah, I guess if all you play a game for is story, but that's not why you should play a game like Demon's Souls. You should play it because it's fun, because it's challenging. Because there is something immensely satisfying about perfectly timing a parry and stabbing a monster through the chest...or dodge-rolling to the side, getting behind the enemy, impaling it through the back on your weapon of choice, and then unsheathing your weapon from their body using your foot (which will often send the body flying off a ledge, or tumbling down a staircase). THAT is why I play Demon's Souls! For the visceral combat and the AI that doesn't take turns, just comes charging - the AI wants you dead. But this is Demon's Souls! You play through half of the game, guaranteed, as a dead person. The point, is that dying becomes commonplace and has less of a focus, allowing you to enjoy playing the game. There comes a time when you don't care whether you die anymore, you lose a lot of your fear, your trepidation, and you run headlong into enemies, knowing that you'll make some kind of progress. You learn enemy placements, what environmental hazards to avoid, which weapons are most effective, and, before you know it, you're sprinting through a level hacking and slashing your way through everything. You see it the first time you beat the Phalanx, if you go back and grind for experience to put towards the next big purchase (for me, it was put towards strength, so that I could wield a bastard sword). Playing through the same level after beating a boss, you find out, is a breeze! And it's FUN. You sprint from enemy to enemy, critical hitting every one, taking just minutes to get to the boss room. If you haven't yet beat the boss, you blast through the level so that you can earn another shot at the big baddie, so that when you finally beat him, you know that you could do it again.
I would not play Demon's Souls if I didn't enjoy it. There aren't that many gamers out there that will play a game JUST because it is difficult. This game honestly didn't make me feel like I was banging my head against a wall, as I was always accomplishing something - I could get back to my bloodstain, retrieve my souls, and spend them mid-level on some armour or weapon upgrades. That's progress. What ISN'T progress, is failing a jump in Uncharted because the camera angle's off, or not being able to find your way out of a room, as the difference between things you can grab onto and things you can't is inscrutable. Those games will do that, and they have checkpoints. To me, that is FAR more frustrating, failing at something because the game is designed poorly.
Is the point of a game to see it through to the end? Yeah, I guess if all you play a game for is story, but that's not why you should play a game like Demon's Souls. You should play it because it's fun, because it's challenging. Because there is something immensely satisfying about perfectly timing a parry and stabbing a monster through the chest...or dodge-rolling to the side, getting behind the enemy, impaling it through the back on your weapon of choice, and then unsheathing your weapon from their body using your foot (which will often send the body flying off a ledge, or tumbling down a staircase). THAT is why I play Demon's Souls! For the visceral combat and the AI that doesn't take turns, just comes charging - the AI wants you dead. But this is Demon's Souls! You play through half of the game, guaranteed, as a dead person. The point, is that dying becomes commonplace and has less of a focus, allowing you to enjoy playing the game. There comes a time when you don't care whether you die anymore, you lose a lot of your fear, your trepidation, and you run headlong into enemies, knowing that you'll make some kind of progress. You learn enemy placements, what environmental hazards to avoid, which weapons are most effective, and, before you know it, you're sprinting through a level hacking and slashing your way through everything. You see it the first time you beat the Phalanx, if you go back and grind for experience to put towards the next big purchase (for me, it was put towards strength, so that I could wield a bastard sword). Playing through the same level after beating a boss, you find out, is a breeze! And it's FUN. You sprint from enemy to enemy, critical hitting every one, taking just minutes to get to the boss room. If you haven't yet beat the boss, you blast through the level so that you can earn another shot at the big baddie, so that when you finally beat him, you know that you could do it again.
I would not play Demon's Souls if I didn't enjoy it. There aren't that many gamers out there that will play a game JUST because it is difficult. This game honestly didn't make me feel like I was banging my head against a wall, as I was always accomplishing something - I could get back to my bloodstain, retrieve my souls, and spend them mid-level on some armour or weapon upgrades. That's progress. What ISN'T progress, is failing a jump in Uncharted because the camera angle's off, or not being able to find your way out of a room, as the difference between things you can grab onto and things you can't is inscrutable. Those games will do that, and they have checkpoints. To me, that is FAR more frustrating, failing at something because the game is designed poorly.
Demon's Souls isn't unfair. I might have used profanity when playing, but any faults were my own. The point I want to stress, though, is that there are rarely any points at which you aren't making progress. I can't say the same for a lot of games; Demon's Souls gives you incentive to reach the place where you died, as you will get back all your experience, making a new total. Every enemy that you kill gives you souls, so that, even when you die, you are gaining experience upon reaching your bloodstain. Now look at a game like Uncharted, one which has a lot of critical acclaim, just like Demon's Souls: during any battle, as you go about killing enemies, if you don't kill ALL of them, you have to try all over again, from the start, with nothing to show for it. Unlike Demon's Souls, you don't keep any ammunition you may have picked up, you don't have a chance of regaining any experience from killing the enemies once more...nothing. The only thing keeping you going is reaching the next scene, where you will presumably see some kind of movie before slogging through the same boring fights again in between the next one (or between platforming segments, where, again, you gain nothing. Falling into the same hole five times gives you no experience other than frustration, often at the terrible camera or lack of distinction between things that are grabbable and things that aren't).
Do you see the difference? Dying doesn't matter in Demon's Souls, because, even if it is a cheap death, there's always a chance that you will reach your bloodstain and regain all of your experience. Or, the items that you find will stay with you, even if you die. Compare that to anything else, where, if you have some kind of rare drop and die before you save, that item is lost forever. Not so in Demon's Souls.
Stop saying it's not fair! If you think that Uncharted or Metal Gear Solid or pretty much anything else is a good game when matched up against Demon's Souls, you are clearly blinded by all of the pretty cutscenes. How is it fair when you die in another game, but when you die in Demon's Souls (common place), suddenly death is unacceptable?
Do you see the difference? Dying doesn't matter in Demon's Souls, because, even if it is a cheap death, there's always a chance that you will reach your bloodstain and regain all of your experience. Or, the items that you find will stay with you, even if you die. Compare that to anything else, where, if you have some kind of rare drop and die before you save, that item is lost forever. Not so in Demon's Souls.
Stop saying it's not fair! If you think that Uncharted or Metal Gear Solid or pretty much anything else is a good game when matched up against Demon's Souls, you are clearly blinded by all of the pretty cutscenes. How is it fair when you die in another game, but when you die in Demon's Souls (common place), suddenly death is unacceptable?
Thank you for posting that. I know theres a lot of people who criticize Yahtzee's review; but few actually point on why it wasnt a well researched topic. I understand you as a reviewer (Yahtzee) wants to review as many games as possible to appease everyone, but if your not particularly great at that style of game (even if Demons Souls is admittedly one of the hardest RPGs by fans worldwide); then you shouldnt pick it up.The Deadpool said:
I thought the ZP was hilarious, but the review just wasnt that great. Then again I always laugh at people who die over and over. I just hope your T.V/Console/Controller was kept intact even after all of those deaths.
It's so strange to watch and read to reviews while constantly having the exact same opinion on the matter; IWBTG was fun because you could immediately recover yourself from the beginning of the screen. That was alright, because the game would flow while you weren't frustrated. In any game, the flow is the most important thing ever and it seems so few developers understand this. When you have to fucking restart all over again in Demon's Souls the game doesn't flow, and you get frustrated. Mirror's Edge didn't have it because you didn't knew where to go the first time around. Looking around in a game where you are supposed to run? No flow. In Resonance of Fate you had to learn and grind your ass off before you could get to the next chapter. No flow. God of War II? Puzzles, stops the amazing action and flow. (for you haters, GoW III did improve drastically in quality) Far Cry 2? No waypoints in a giant world. I could go on forever.
Actually, when you die, you get sent back, but you can save at any point, quit, and come back still where you were.
I rally hate it when you give bad reviews to good games (causing countless others to agree, and rip on a game they never played in these comments; Monster Hunter Tri comes to mind), but to hell with it, I don't come here for reviews glowing with praise, I come here for Yahtzee.
I rally hate it when you give bad reviews to good games (causing countless others to agree, and rip on a game they never played in these comments; Monster Hunter Tri comes to mind), but to hell with it, I don't come here for reviews glowing with praise, I come here for Yahtzee.