Demon's Souls
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I still don't get why people have a problem with this game.
I found after I got a hang of it that it really wasn't hard at all.
Then again I am a person who blind runs on the hardest difficulty in any game I play so that might be why.
I found after I got a hang of it that it really wasn't hard at all.
Then again I am a person who blind runs on the hardest difficulty in any game I play so that might be why.
Sure you could put difficulty levels in, sure the game doesn't need to be needlessly cruel (like when Yurt kills every NPC in the nexus and you have no idea he's going to do that), but really, this is the game they wanted to make and wanted people to play. They carved this for the niche market of insane people (like myself) who like a near masochistic level of challenge, it's like the old roguelikes.
This is an issue i take with a lot of reviewers today. Instead of taking the game as it is, they take it as what they wanted it to be. Just like a sculptor would make whatever statue he or she wanted it to be then subject it to review. One could clearly list everything you don't like about the statue, but you can't complain that the statue SHOULD have had hands because that's just how the other statues are - it's art.
I'm not saying to have to like the game, or even that you should! You offered your reason for dislikes and no one can fault opinion, but the unfortunately named From Software team made the game how they wanted. They knew it was hard, and that's what they wanted to do. They knew they would be alienating a lot of potential players, but they still did it, and I applaud them for sticking to their guns and created something that wasn't made for the soul (haha) purpose of making stacks of money.
In my opinion Demon's Souls is a rare gem and we aren't going to see many more games like it.
I think part of the problem is developers KNOW everyone picks medium so they make medium actually kind of easy so that most people can get through it without much trouble.
This is an issue i take with a lot of reviewers today. Instead of taking the game as it is, they take it as what they wanted it to be. Just like a sculptor would make whatever statue he or she wanted it to be then subject it to review. One could clearly list everything you don't like about the statue, but you can't complain that the statue SHOULD have had hands because that's just how the other statues are - it's art.
I'm not saying to have to like the game, or even that you should! You offered your reason for dislikes and no one can fault opinion, but the unfortunately named From Software team made the game how they wanted. They knew it was hard, and that's what they wanted to do. They knew they would be alienating a lot of potential players, but they still did it, and I applaud them for sticking to their guns and created something that wasn't made for the soul (haha) purpose of making stacks of money.
In my opinion Demon's Souls is a rare gem and we aren't going to see many more games like it.
Maybe I'm an old and jaded fogey, but I usually pick "hard" unless I know the game is more difficult than usual. Games these days really aren't hard and I get bored on "medium". This is especially true in RTS and FPS games since your skills generally transfer from game to game as they're all very similar.theexhippy said:
I think part of the problem is developers KNOW everyone picks medium so they make medium actually kind of easy so that most people can get through it without much trouble.
I can see what you mean, it just wasn't the game for me but I just do not see the point in not having the save option and pause. Those are the things that really get me, because those are what made it so annoying for me. I don't mind dieing in game, I mind doing things over again when it would make sense to let people save when they know a hard boss is coming. It makes sense to let people pause when they have to go and do something, such as taking the dog out, do the washing up or answer the phone. You see these two small things would have made me less annoyed with the game.
I'm a huge fan of Demon's Souls and had a great laugh at the ZP episode... not just Yahtzee's usual wit but his misadventure is a perfect chronicle of almost every newbie mistake possible between the start of the game and the second boss battle. A lot of the problems had with the game seem to be of the "why didn't you just do this? or that?" variety ... aside from ignoring his shield (everybody starts with one and its use is explained in the tutorial) they're all among the huge reams of stuff that From Software left buried for players to find out for themselves or through hints on the ground etc. Sticking lizardmen with pickaxes right around blind corners is only one example of how From didn't pull any punches when they made the game.
It's possible to avoid going back to the hub after beating the first boss in favor of pressing on in the first world, but the hub visit opens up new areas to explore as an alternate to that horrible bridge level, NPC's to level you up and improve weapons, and most importantly the couple of items that let you start doing real multi-player co-op instead of just seeing ghosts wandering around or watching replays of people dying. Not that those aren't amusing... I love the chance to see someone make a fatal mistake in real-time, and touching bloodstains in areas where I have no idea how someone could possibly find a way to die.
Aside from making it annoying to review, I think the die-and-restart part of Demon's Souls was incredibly well done. It's nothing innovative, just the return of good old-fashioned videogame playing. You shall not pass an area until you're good enough to do it in one go like a proper hero, end of story. When you finally get through a place you will have truly deserved it, there's no chance that you win just by fluke. Also, the levels are very well designed for replays. Their end-to-end lengths are very short if you learn them and have done the requisite checking of every nook and cranny for treasure, shortcuts, and ambushes. You can lose an hour's work in one bad move, but your bloodstain is generally within 5 minutes walking distance at the very worst if you go get your souls right away without distractions (which is a good idea since goofing off and dying will cause them to disappear). In some cases the shortcuts aren't obvious, they may not be new pathways you open by unlocking doors etc. In one place you can simply sneak a near-beeline through 2/3 of the level, in another you just need to make a non-obvious jump down from a parapet.
It's possible to avoid going back to the hub after beating the first boss in favor of pressing on in the first world, but the hub visit opens up new areas to explore as an alternate to that horrible bridge level, NPC's to level you up and improve weapons, and most importantly the couple of items that let you start doing real multi-player co-op instead of just seeing ghosts wandering around or watching replays of people dying. Not that those aren't amusing... I love the chance to see someone make a fatal mistake in real-time, and touching bloodstains in areas where I have no idea how someone could possibly find a way to die.
BTW this (and the similar bit in the episode) is absolutely false. While alive your character can see blue runes on the ground that let you summon another player's phantom to help you with the level and boss fight. Also you can be invaded by other players in red phantom form and have to fight them to the death. Really good XP if you win, free revive for them if you lose. The probability of invasion is what makes this game really awesome, once that red message that you've been invaded shows up you have to be ready for an attack from virtually any quarter at any time.
Aside from making it annoying to review, I think the die-and-restart part of Demon's Souls was incredibly well done. It's nothing innovative, just the return of good old-fashioned videogame playing. You shall not pass an area until you're good enough to do it in one go like a proper hero, end of story. When you finally get through a place you will have truly deserved it, there's no chance that you win just by fluke. Also, the levels are very well designed for replays. Their end-to-end lengths are very short if you learn them and have done the requisite checking of every nook and cranny for treasure, shortcuts, and ambushes. You can lose an hour's work in one bad move, but your bloodstain is generally within 5 minutes walking distance at the very worst if you go get your souls right away without distractions (which is a good idea since goofing off and dying will cause them to disappear). In some cases the shortcuts aren't obvious, they may not be new pathways you open by unlocking doors etc. In one place you can simply sneak a near-beeline through 2/3 of the level, in another you just need to make a non-obvious jump down from a parapet.
I'm so tempted to email [email protected] and ask him if the Jews in Nazi Germany were just a vocal minority? I mean, apparently it's OK to oppress minorities (vocal or otherwise).
You can have all the time in the world, but enough rage quits will have a player turning to another game. It sounds like a very serious issue to have in a game like this.Ryuk2 said:
I doubt Yahtzee is the type to easily bend to pressure; lord knows I don't expect to see a FFXIII review come March.malestrithe said:
Though Japanese, I wouldn't classify this one in the JRPG genre. He doesn't hate it because it's Japanese or shares any likeness to the JRPG format (and it doesn't sound like it does), he hates it because it was designed with limited checkpoints and without difficulty settings.
He bowed to peer pressure a few times before in the past: SSBB and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. This feels like he has given into peer pressure as well.kawaiiamethist said:
Demon's Souls is the typical JRPG experience: start the game weak as a kitten, then after you gain enough levels, like 30 or 40, the monsters get easier until you move onto the next area, then you have to grind yourself silly once again until the threshold is once again reached. Eventually, after enough gameplay, you fight God. While it does not actually tell you what way to go, Demon's Souls does kind of want you to stick to one path: go to each area and go through the first part of it to kill the first area boss. While it is possible to do thing out of order, it is not really recommended.
Western RPG's are different, I am referring to post 2005 western rpgs. You are free to travel around where ever you want and do whatever you want story be damned. You are capable of killing almost anything from level one and by level 10, if you build right, it is possible to kill the rest.
Demon's Souls is a JRPG at its heart, but it is dressed up in the kit of the Western RPG.
As for the stereotypical JRPG where there is no feedback from you as to how characters progress, I have not seen that game in almost 6 years. The modern JRPG give you too much control as to how the characters progress. Not counting sequels and spinoffs all the Final Fantasies past 10 give you too much control over character progression. Sphere Grid, License Board, the upcoming Crystarium system,
Shattered Memories has a bit of the same problem Brutal Legend has by not telling you clear instructions. I don't know how to proceed.
Yahtzee, I loved this video! And I love Demon's Souls, too. Just made me laugh harder, as all the deaths are really accurate...except maybe the first one. Please tell me you got past the first skeleton?
I find that rolling to the side is the best evasive maneuver, but it all depends, really. If your up against someone with a long pointy stick, stepping back obviously won't help you as he thrusts forward. Facing a slashing weapon, though, stepping back becomes a usable option, as rolling to the side still gets you slashed.
If you were going purely for comedic effect, the video is a resounding success. But as a review, I can see why you did the 'Extra Punctuation'. Even in that column, though, I'm not sure that you mention how checkpoints do occur more often than just after you get to the boss. At least half of the stages have a checkpoint before the boss that can be unlocked...that, or once you open the boss door, the boss isn't that far from the entrance point. I find that most of the stages without checkpoints are some of the shorter stages in the game...I also think that this is intentional. Once a dragon roasts you in stage 2 (mind you, the same thing happens in the first level...maybe you should've seen it coming?) it's all too easy to run the length of the bridge without getting a scratch. Do this 3 times, and you're at the boss.
Personally, I wouldn't have wanted any more checkpoints in this game, as, odd as it sounds, it would make it too easy. More than that, it would lose a lot of the fun! Getting sent back to the beginning of the stage forces you to get better at the game - if there were checkpoints, I'd say it would be even harder to make progress, as you woudn't be getting as much experience/money (they're the same thing, another way the game is difficult - your choices are very important).
Games that make concessions to me as a player run the risk of losing my interest. Games should be challenging, and I think it's criminal that they're putting an easy mode in Megaman 10!
Back on topic, though, Demon's Souls saves every time you pick up an item, or change your equipment. So, if you have shit to do, you actually can leave the game as often as you like without needing to worry about losing progress, unlike a game with "save points" (I hate save points - being able to save whenever is a blessing).
Or, if you're a pansy (I admit, there's at least one boss that made me so mad that I did this and found out how to cheat), you can quit the game right after you die in order to re-spawn at the last point your game saved (so long as you quit before the game has a chance to save, putting you back at the start of the level). In addition, there are items and a spell (miracle, technically) that will take you back to the nexus so that you can spend your souls. Or there are NPC characters that you'll find who will take your experience and give you better armor or weapons - getting to that point with enough exp for a new weapon is progress, to me. When you die, you keep your items.
When you have to do a review within the span of a week, I doubt that you truly have time to appreciate hardly any of the games that you play, unfortunately. It also doesn't help that you admit to not reading instruction manuals, as they often explain the finer points of a game, without having to resort to tutorials (tutorials suck). Not reading the manual also gives me a reason for why you hate fighting games, as those pages show you how to do all the moves!
Last thing I'll say, here: maybe it's because I've played so many retro games that I can appreciate a game like Demon's Souls. When you play certain NES games, you have to beat them from start to finish in one sitting, else leave your system on for hours. Demon's Souls is pretty unforgiving, but it does give you checkpoints and saves...I'd say you get them often enough to stave off frustration. That first level is MEANT to be frustrating, though! When the game sends you to the nexus for the first time, that's not the end of the tutorial. After beating the Phalanx and gaining the ability to spend your souls on level ups - THAT is the end of the tutorial. From then on, at least for me, the game became FAR easier
I've gone on for too long, though. I watch and read your stuff for the comedy, not for serious recommendation. I just hope that your ramblings don't turn people off of a legitimately good game; one that, I would argue, can't be understood in a week.
I find that rolling to the side is the best evasive maneuver, but it all depends, really. If your up against someone with a long pointy stick, stepping back obviously won't help you as he thrusts forward. Facing a slashing weapon, though, stepping back becomes a usable option, as rolling to the side still gets you slashed.
If you were going purely for comedic effect, the video is a resounding success. But as a review, I can see why you did the 'Extra Punctuation'. Even in that column, though, I'm not sure that you mention how checkpoints do occur more often than just after you get to the boss. At least half of the stages have a checkpoint before the boss that can be unlocked...that, or once you open the boss door, the boss isn't that far from the entrance point. I find that most of the stages without checkpoints are some of the shorter stages in the game...I also think that this is intentional. Once a dragon roasts you in stage 2 (mind you, the same thing happens in the first level...maybe you should've seen it coming?) it's all too easy to run the length of the bridge without getting a scratch. Do this 3 times, and you're at the boss.
Personally, I wouldn't have wanted any more checkpoints in this game, as, odd as it sounds, it would make it too easy. More than that, it would lose a lot of the fun! Getting sent back to the beginning of the stage forces you to get better at the game - if there were checkpoints, I'd say it would be even harder to make progress, as you woudn't be getting as much experience/money (they're the same thing, another way the game is difficult - your choices are very important).
Games that make concessions to me as a player run the risk of losing my interest. Games should be challenging, and I think it's criminal that they're putting an easy mode in Megaman 10!
Back on topic, though, Demon's Souls saves every time you pick up an item, or change your equipment. So, if you have shit to do, you actually can leave the game as often as you like without needing to worry about losing progress, unlike a game with "save points" (I hate save points - being able to save whenever is a blessing).
Or, if you're a pansy (I admit, there's at least one boss that made me so mad that I did this and found out how to cheat), you can quit the game right after you die in order to re-spawn at the last point your game saved (so long as you quit before the game has a chance to save, putting you back at the start of the level). In addition, there are items and a spell (miracle, technically) that will take you back to the nexus so that you can spend your souls. Or there are NPC characters that you'll find who will take your experience and give you better armor or weapons - getting to that point with enough exp for a new weapon is progress, to me. When you die, you keep your items.
When you have to do a review within the span of a week, I doubt that you truly have time to appreciate hardly any of the games that you play, unfortunately. It also doesn't help that you admit to not reading instruction manuals, as they often explain the finer points of a game, without having to resort to tutorials (tutorials suck). Not reading the manual also gives me a reason for why you hate fighting games, as those pages show you how to do all the moves!
Last thing I'll say, here: maybe it's because I've played so many retro games that I can appreciate a game like Demon's Souls. When you play certain NES games, you have to beat them from start to finish in one sitting, else leave your system on for hours. Demon's Souls is pretty unforgiving, but it does give you checkpoints and saves...I'd say you get them often enough to stave off frustration. That first level is MEANT to be frustrating, though! When the game sends you to the nexus for the first time, that's not the end of the tutorial. After beating the Phalanx and gaining the ability to spend your souls on level ups - THAT is the end of the tutorial. From then on, at least for me, the game became FAR easier
I've gone on for too long, though. I watch and read your stuff for the comedy, not for serious recommendation. I just hope that your ramblings don't turn people off of a legitimately good game; one that, I would argue, can't be understood in a week.
Demon's Souls saves every time you change your equipment or pick up a new item...so how is it that people, including Yahtzee, find their time being wasted? For all the naysayers, if you just can't seem to get any better and proceed with a level, you can quit the game before it has a chance to save when you die. Re-load the file, it'll put you back to where you last got an item or changed a weapon, and you can try again. I found this out on the False King, where I had my first rage-quit out of the whole game (stealing levels? AND killing me? Seriously?). It took me umpteen tries to beat him, reloading every time right on his doorstep. Really, though, that level isn't all that difficult, and I might have been better off just playing through it the hard way (and gaining more experience in the process). But I digress.
Is the point of a game to see it through to the end? Yeah, I guess if all you play a game for is story, but that's not why you should play a game like Demon's Souls. You should play it because it's fun, because it's challenging. Because there is something immensely satisfying about perfectly timing a parry and stabbing a monster through the chest...or dodge-rolling to the side, getting behind the enemy, impaling it through the back on your weapon of choice, and then unsheathing your weapon from their body using your foot (which will often send the body flying off a ledge, or tumbling down a staircase). THAT is why I play Demon's Souls! For the visceral combat and the AI that doesn't take turns, just comes charging - the AI wants you dead. But this is Demon's Souls! You play through half of the game, guaranteed, as a dead person. The point, is that dying becomes commonplace and has less of a focus, allowing you to enjoy playing the game. There comes a time when you don't care whether you die anymore, you lose a lot of your fear, your trepidation, and you run headlong into enemies, knowing that you'll make some kind of progress. You learn enemy placements, what environmental hazards to avoid, which weapons are most effective, and, before you know it, you're sprinting through a level hacking and slashing your way through everything. You see it the first time you beat the Phalanx, if you go back and grind for experience to put towards the next big purchase (for me, it was put towards strength, so that I could wield a bastard sword). Playing through the same level after beating a boss, you find out, is a breeze! And it's FUN. You sprint from enemy to enemy, critical hitting every one, taking just minutes to get to the boss room. If you haven't yet beat the boss, you blast through the level so that you can earn another shot at the big baddie, so that when you finally beat him, you know that you could do it again.
I would not play Demon's Souls if I didn't enjoy it. There aren't that many gamers out there that will play a game JUST because it is difficult. This game honestly didn't make me feel like I was banging my head against a wall, as I was always accomplishing something - I could get back to my bloodstain, retrieve my souls, and spend them mid-level on some armour or weapon upgrades. That's progress. What ISN'T progress, is failing a jump in Uncharted because the camera angle's off, or not being able to find your way out of a room, as the difference between things you can grab onto and things you can't is inscrutable. Those games will do that, and they have checkpoints. To me, that is FAR more frustrating, failing at something because the game is designed poorly.
Is the point of a game to see it through to the end? Yeah, I guess if all you play a game for is story, but that's not why you should play a game like Demon's Souls. You should play it because it's fun, because it's challenging. Because there is something immensely satisfying about perfectly timing a parry and stabbing a monster through the chest...or dodge-rolling to the side, getting behind the enemy, impaling it through the back on your weapon of choice, and then unsheathing your weapon from their body using your foot (which will often send the body flying off a ledge, or tumbling down a staircase). THAT is why I play Demon's Souls! For the visceral combat and the AI that doesn't take turns, just comes charging - the AI wants you dead. But this is Demon's Souls! You play through half of the game, guaranteed, as a dead person. The point, is that dying becomes commonplace and has less of a focus, allowing you to enjoy playing the game. There comes a time when you don't care whether you die anymore, you lose a lot of your fear, your trepidation, and you run headlong into enemies, knowing that you'll make some kind of progress. You learn enemy placements, what environmental hazards to avoid, which weapons are most effective, and, before you know it, you're sprinting through a level hacking and slashing your way through everything. You see it the first time you beat the Phalanx, if you go back and grind for experience to put towards the next big purchase (for me, it was put towards strength, so that I could wield a bastard sword). Playing through the same level after beating a boss, you find out, is a breeze! And it's FUN. You sprint from enemy to enemy, critical hitting every one, taking just minutes to get to the boss room. If you haven't yet beat the boss, you blast through the level so that you can earn another shot at the big baddie, so that when you finally beat him, you know that you could do it again.
I would not play Demon's Souls if I didn't enjoy it. There aren't that many gamers out there that will play a game JUST because it is difficult. This game honestly didn't make me feel like I was banging my head against a wall, as I was always accomplishing something - I could get back to my bloodstain, retrieve my souls, and spend them mid-level on some armour or weapon upgrades. That's progress. What ISN'T progress, is failing a jump in Uncharted because the camera angle's off, or not being able to find your way out of a room, as the difference between things you can grab onto and things you can't is inscrutable. Those games will do that, and they have checkpoints. To me, that is FAR more frustrating, failing at something because the game is designed poorly.
Demon's Souls isn't unfair. I might have used profanity when playing, but any faults were my own. The point I want to stress, though, is that there are rarely any points at which you aren't making progress. I can't say the same for a lot of games; Demon's Souls gives you incentive to reach the place where you died, as you will get back all your experience, making a new total. Every enemy that you kill gives you souls, so that, even when you die, you are gaining experience upon reaching your bloodstain. Now look at a game like Uncharted, one which has a lot of critical acclaim, just like Demon's Souls: during any battle, as you go about killing enemies, if you don't kill ALL of them, you have to try all over again, from the start, with nothing to show for it. Unlike Demon's Souls, you don't keep any ammunition you may have picked up, you don't have a chance of regaining any experience from killing the enemies once more...nothing. The only thing keeping you going is reaching the next scene, where you will presumably see some kind of movie before slogging through the same boring fights again in between the next one (or between platforming segments, where, again, you gain nothing. Falling into the same hole five times gives you no experience other than frustration, often at the terrible camera or lack of distinction between things that are grabbable and things that aren't).
Do you see the difference? Dying doesn't matter in Demon's Souls, because, even if it is a cheap death, there's always a chance that you will reach your bloodstain and regain all of your experience. Or, the items that you find will stay with you, even if you die. Compare that to anything else, where, if you have some kind of rare drop and die before you save, that item is lost forever. Not so in Demon's Souls.
Stop saying it's not fair! If you think that Uncharted or Metal Gear Solid or pretty much anything else is a good game when matched up against Demon's Souls, you are clearly blinded by all of the pretty cutscenes. How is it fair when you die in another game, but when you die in Demon's Souls (common place), suddenly death is unacceptable?
Do you see the difference? Dying doesn't matter in Demon's Souls, because, even if it is a cheap death, there's always a chance that you will reach your bloodstain and regain all of your experience. Or, the items that you find will stay with you, even if you die. Compare that to anything else, where, if you have some kind of rare drop and die before you save, that item is lost forever. Not so in Demon's Souls.
Stop saying it's not fair! If you think that Uncharted or Metal Gear Solid or pretty much anything else is a good game when matched up against Demon's Souls, you are clearly blinded by all of the pretty cutscenes. How is it fair when you die in another game, but when you die in Demon's Souls (common place), suddenly death is unacceptable?
Thank you for posting that. I know theres a lot of people who criticize Yahtzee's review; but few actually point on why it wasnt a well researched topic. I understand you as a reviewer (Yahtzee) wants to review as many games as possible to appease everyone, but if your not particularly great at that style of game (even if Demons Souls is admittedly one of the hardest RPGs by fans worldwide); then you shouldnt pick it up.The Deadpool said:
I thought the ZP was hilarious, but the review just wasnt that great. Then again I always laugh at people who die over and over. I just hope your T.V/Console/Controller was kept intact even after all of those deaths.