Demon's Souls
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I am writing this in response to the responders of this thread (as opposed to the above which was a response to the article itself, not that I expect Ben to read it). I want to say the following:
Despite the general hate a certain Australian politician has garnered from the gaming community, phranking him probably isn't going to accomplish much. Sure, it's funny to send joke letters to the guy, but that just means the guy is going to ignore comments from the community in general. Given that the Australian system seems to be "broken" here as reports show that it's ONE guy holding up an 18+ rating (a majority, or even overwhelming majority consensus of his colleagues not being sufficient) the only thing we can do here via E-mail campaigns is to try and convince him he's wrong and to back down.
Of course in the end I expect him to ignore any pleas of this sort anyway. As I have said before I suspect that the only way to get rid of him and his supporters would be to start engaging in direct political activism. This means we'd need someone capable of organizing, funding (or gathering funds for) serious rallies and public demonstrations. Should that fail, you then begin to move beyond mere demonstrations. At any rate, the way things stand now the only ones with the resources to do something like this are companies like Valve, EA, etc... and of course those companies are acting in a very greedy and short sighted fashion. EA for example is laying off people and such apparently, because some of their titles have underperformed. On the other hand, while not making as much money as they might want they are facing a bigger threat from politicians both in the US and abroad in Australia (which is what we are discussing). Their market basically being killed under them through censorship while their pinching pennies.
It's amusing that Yahtzee gave us his E-mail address, I'm probably going to send him a mail myself (which will doubtlessly be ignored), but I don't recommend using it to phrank him, and right now if you really care about the situation in Australia (and elsewhere) I'd pressure the game companies to start taking some action in return, and see what you can organize.
I mean honestly, one of the reasons why the gaming community can be ignored as a "vocal minority" is because something like /B/ - Anonymous, can have nerds show up in strength wearing Guy Fawkes masks to harass Scientologists (albeit with very little effect apparently) and that is a massive organization that is known to be pretty bloody ruthless and dangerous (Fair Game policy). Yet the gaming community (which includes a lot of those guys) can't even get something going against one bloody civil servant, never mind taking it to that level.
Despite the general hate a certain Australian politician has garnered from the gaming community, phranking him probably isn't going to accomplish much. Sure, it's funny to send joke letters to the guy, but that just means the guy is going to ignore comments from the community in general. Given that the Australian system seems to be "broken" here as reports show that it's ONE guy holding up an 18+ rating (a majority, or even overwhelming majority consensus of his colleagues not being sufficient) the only thing we can do here via E-mail campaigns is to try and convince him he's wrong and to back down.
Of course in the end I expect him to ignore any pleas of this sort anyway. As I have said before I suspect that the only way to get rid of him and his supporters would be to start engaging in direct political activism. This means we'd need someone capable of organizing, funding (or gathering funds for) serious rallies and public demonstrations. Should that fail, you then begin to move beyond mere demonstrations. At any rate, the way things stand now the only ones with the resources to do something like this are companies like Valve, EA, etc... and of course those companies are acting in a very greedy and short sighted fashion. EA for example is laying off people and such apparently, because some of their titles have underperformed. On the other hand, while not making as much money as they might want they are facing a bigger threat from politicians both in the US and abroad in Australia (which is what we are discussing). Their market basically being killed under them through censorship while their pinching pennies.
It's amusing that Yahtzee gave us his E-mail address, I'm probably going to send him a mail myself (which will doubtlessly be ignored), but I don't recommend using it to phrank him, and right now if you really care about the situation in Australia (and elsewhere) I'd pressure the game companies to start taking some action in return, and see what you can organize.
I mean honestly, one of the reasons why the gaming community can be ignored as a "vocal minority" is because something like /B/ - Anonymous, can have nerds show up in strength wearing Guy Fawkes masks to harass Scientologists (albeit with very little effect apparently) and that is a massive organization that is known to be pretty bloody ruthless and dangerous (Fair Game policy). Yet the gaming community (which includes a lot of those guys) can't even get something going against one bloody civil servant, never mind taking it to that level.
You can. I think you need some DLC for it, though the DLC is thankfully free.snowman6251 said:
Beat me to it. Being page 4 of this thread, I know no one is going to see either of our posts, but I'm going to throw my two cents in here as well regardless.Therumancer said:
While it may seem great to spam Atkinson with emails and whatnot about what a knob he is, the international escapists don't have to deal with the consequences of such an action. I applaud Yahtzee's humour in how he posted the email, but by doing so he has pretty much killed what little chance we have of actually getting the rating while Atkinson is in office because he'll read a few of the emails, and lump all gamers into one category.
The government paper he is referring to is only an opinion piece. My brother and I have sent our letters in, but even if half the population of the country send in that we want an R18 rating, it still comes down to Atkinson.
But like I said, this is a review written by Yahtzee and it's on page 4 so no one will see this. Quote me to prove me wrong if you like.
Oh whats that? No one will read it?Adzma said:
Anyway that is the problem with the email address. Emails like "OMG UR A DICK I HATE YOU LET ME HAVE L4D2" are not going to help the Aussies. Most likely it will hurt them as he can print out some emails and say "see these are the kind of people who want that stuff". A well written letter would probably still have no effect but should be the type of thing sent in. Sadly though asking the average internet dweller to write well, especially to someone they don't like, is not going to work out well.
Ok: If you want to write letters that have an effect - or at least are annoying and waste a lot of time or money - read this.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/12/16/dont-waste-your-time-waste-theirs-a-guide-to-writing-to-ministers/
It's for the conroy internet filter, but the prinicples apply.
Key points for the lazy of clicking:
Ask multiple, tangentally related questions. (Like: If there is no R rating, does that mean Steam will be banned by the internet filter as it has RC content?). Ideally make them go to different sections or different departments: As soon as two different people need to provide responses to a ministerial the cost goes through the roof.
Don't send rude or joke emails; it costs about 1 minute as all the do is trash them.
Send questions to other ministers, as if a sitting member or minister forwards the question it MUST be answered.
if you're overseas, I recommend the 'I've just got in Australia, and am considering my options - but this R rating thing troubles me because (x). Also, can you tell me about imigration laws/how to pronounce 'G'day'? And what about these drop bears?
http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/12/16/dont-waste-your-time-waste-theirs-a-guide-to-writing-to-ministers/
It's for the conroy internet filter, but the prinicples apply.
Key points for the lazy of clicking:
Ask multiple, tangentally related questions. (Like: If there is no R rating, does that mean Steam will be banned by the internet filter as it has RC content?). Ideally make them go to different sections or different departments: As soon as two different people need to provide responses to a ministerial the cost goes through the roof.
Don't send rude or joke emails; it costs about 1 minute as all the do is trash them.
Send questions to other ministers, as if a sitting member or minister forwards the question it MUST be answered.
if you're overseas, I recommend the 'I've just got in Australia, and am considering my options - but this R rating thing troubles me because (x). Also, can you tell me about imigration laws/how to pronounce 'G'day'? And what about these drop bears?
Yahtzee would rather play a game that rewards you for time played rather than skill, aka WoW.
That's why I hate MMORPG's, it's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of time wasted.
Losing progression because of your stupid mistakes makes advancement more meaningful.
The game refuses to let you progress until you've shown some actual skill, not time wasted.
Dying is something you need to get over quick, otherwise you're not going to have fun.
Even with all the time "wasted" learning from mistakes, it's still not a "time sink".
You won't see a Soul level 100 player who didn't earn it.
Your Soul level and progression have far more skill value than your Lv.70 AoE Protection Paladin on WoW.
WoW only grants you levels based on time spent, not skill.
Action games grant you progress for trying to same 30 second sequence enough times to luck out.
Demon's Souls makes sure time spent and dumb luck alone don't get you meaningful progress in the game.
It's only hard compared to piss-poor easy games that are more concerned with getting everyone who bought the game through to the end.
The game has no obligation to have an easy mode because you don't feel like trying too hard.
You realized that with Skate 2, why not with a hardcore JRPG like Demon's Souls?
This isn't a game you'll be able to properly review with what little progress you made.
You were trying to rush through it to write a review, you failed, and had to just summary your short experience. That's not a real review, you didn't progress enough to even level up. Are you seriously going to say you reviewed a JRPG without leveling up once? How could you think you could make progress without leveling up in an RPG? You make no sense.
That's why I hate MMORPG's, it's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of time wasted.
Losing progression because of your stupid mistakes makes advancement more meaningful.
The game refuses to let you progress until you've shown some actual skill, not time wasted.
Dying is something you need to get over quick, otherwise you're not going to have fun.
Even with all the time "wasted" learning from mistakes, it's still not a "time sink".
You won't see a Soul level 100 player who didn't earn it.
Your Soul level and progression have far more skill value than your Lv.70 AoE Protection Paladin on WoW.
WoW only grants you levels based on time spent, not skill.
Action games grant you progress for trying to same 30 second sequence enough times to luck out.
Demon's Souls makes sure time spent and dumb luck alone don't get you meaningful progress in the game.
It's only hard compared to piss-poor easy games that are more concerned with getting everyone who bought the game through to the end.
The game has no obligation to have an easy mode because you don't feel like trying too hard.
You realized that with Skate 2, why not with a hardcore JRPG like Demon's Souls?
This isn't a game you'll be able to properly review with what little progress you made.
You were trying to rush through it to write a review, you failed, and had to just summary your short experience. That's not a real review, you didn't progress enough to even level up. Are you seriously going to say you reviewed a JRPG without leveling up once? How could you think you could make progress without leveling up in an RPG? You make no sense.
Whats wrong with wanting to see the end of something you paid 60 bucks for. I mean I wouldn't give Demon's Souls to my mom expecting her to see the conclusion but as a gamer I play games til the end or until I get too bored to be bothered.oldgamer said:
Anyway your whole argument is a contradiction because what the hell is Demon's Souls if not a measure of time wasted. By making you repeat the same level over and over until you do it flawlessly its not so much testing your skill as its testing your willingness to repeat ad nauseam.
That's not to say there's no skill involved but if you're at least somewhat competent at the game try the level enough times to memorize every nook and cranny and undead warrior and eventually you will make the it through the level.
Its just like any other game. Trail and error until victorious. The only difference is if you fuck up you have to redo more. That's not entertainment in my eyes so much as its frustration.
Obviously I don't know what other people wrote to him but knowing the internet I have a feeling he's getting some, if not many messages along those lines, and like I said, that's only counterproductive.Freebird95 said:
Your humble acolytes are ready to do your will oh noble Yahtzee!
the messages are sent!
email him!
[email protected]
entitle: 'The "Vocal Minority" Speaks Out'
the messages are sent!
email him!
[email protected]
entitle: 'The "Vocal Minority" Speaks Out'
just wanted to say how much i liked this letter. i think it's to-the-point and intelligently written. and cheers for sticking up for australia.qbanknight said:
technically this law doesn't affect me directly, since i don't live in aus at the moment. but i hate that my home country is the only one with this really stupid, unnecessary and above all else unfair law
Yes, but what's wrong with the fps template of trying the same 30 seconds, I mean ok the luck thing annoys me, but if they did that with skill rather than luck it would be better. A "redo tis half an hour bit until you've memorised it" bit is purely about time spent, not skill. Also what's wrong with difficulty levels, if someone wants to see the end of a game regardless (well not completely) of skill then what's wrong with that. As long as they don't get "rewarded" with a 100 soul level then it's fine.oldgamer said:
There is a difference between "purposefully wasting peoples time" and "requiring patience."
"Purposefully wasting peoples time" is what MMOs do. They make you grind out the same monsters over and over and over again for money or levels. They do this so it extends your play time and they can milk you for your subscription fee (granted, Demon's Souls also has an element of this, but grinding and farming is typically tangential to actual game progression).
Demon's Souls merely requires patience. The difference between the player who succeeds at Demon's Souls and the player who ragequits is whether they realize what Demon's Souls is trying to make you do. Survive. The dearth of checkpoints is a design choice. The reason for the checkpoint system is that they want dying to be a BAD THING. They want you to be careful and deliberate in your actions. I say all of this as guy who plays PC games all the time. I'm a quicksave addict - I use it all the time instinctively. Want to know what saving all the time does? It makes games piss easy. You run in rambo-style, because you don't care if you die, you have a save from five seconds before you ran in. There is no penalty. There is no risk. Therefore there is no tension.
If Yahtzee fails at Demon's Souls, I will not be one to claim that Yahtzee is a man who is bad at video games. He merely has no patience. His article clearly provides evidence of this. When he died, instead of slowing down and being even more careful, he sped up. He became increasing more frustrated, and of course, continued to fail.
Ultimately, the problem with Yahtzee is that he failed to realize that the problem is not with Demon's Souls, it is with him. He blamed the game instead of saying "what could I do to get past this." Demon's Souls is nothing if not fair. If you die, it was because you made a mistake. If you succeed it was because you did something right. Ultimately, YOU are the deciding factor as to whether the game is difficult. I died so many times while playing yesterday, because I kept making mistakes. I was using the wrong equipment, or I stepped on the wrong place, or I made a bad decision. When I stopped making mistakes is when I succeeded. It was my victory over myself.
I've played so-called "difficult" games on the PC and console both. But the thing is, they are never "difficult" so much as "cheap." You can play the same section over and over again, with the only way to win is by some miracle or stroke of luck. An example is Call of Duty 4 on Veteran difficulty. It didn't take me long to realize that it never really mattered how good at the game I was. It was just one big clusterfuck of perfectly thrown grenades or 100% accurate gunfire. When I got through a level, I never felt like "Yes, I did it. I succeeded." It was more like "Damn I was lucky."
Veteran CoD4 had many checkpoints, and so the only way to make CoD4 more difficult was to make the enemies unfair. Demon's Souls is also difficult game, but is so in a different way. The challenge is in the strict nature of the game world. If I had to choose between unfair enemies and lots of checkpoints opposed to fair enemies with few, I choose the latter.
I have to agree with what Yahtzee says about the difficulty level. I am along time PC gamer only now picking up an Xbox controller and I recently discovered that shooters are bloody difficult. The mouse and keyboard seems so natural to me, because that is what I have always used. I used to be downright scary using that combo in shooters and I am only slightly better than incompetent using the xbox. But the challenge is enjoyable, and thus I still play.
I don't think that Demon's Souls would be fun, I don't have much time for gaming any more and my frustration level with games has ALWAYS been low. Games are a release for me, a minor escape from reality where my carefully constructed godlike character can really do some damage and has some Serious Latitude for Action. (Unlike real life where things like assault weapons based problem solving is frowned upon).
I don't think that Demon's Souls would be fun, I don't have much time for gaming any more and my frustration level with games has ALWAYS been low. Games are a release for me, a minor escape from reality where my carefully constructed godlike character can really do some damage and has some Serious Latitude for Action. (Unlike real life where things like assault weapons based problem solving is frowned upon).