Dev admits DNF was dumbed down for consoles.

[CM156_v1legacy]

Remember Borderlands everyone?
How many weapons could you have at once?

Something like 42 and could switch between 4 at ease. And that was for consoles as well.

This saddens me, really.

 

[Aphantas]

Right. Thought. Sure.
Thoughts like "why would I ever want to carry the rocketlauncher/shrink ray/whatever exotic, situational weapon there is if the assault rifle/shotgun, sniper rifle/pistol, whatever the hell kind of combo it will be can deal with anything at any range?" perhaps.
Not limiting at all, it's "intelligent decision making".

As for "u so blind from them nostalgias", I have not played the old duke games and I find that decision awful for what is supposedly just about some dude who shoots stuff.

You would want to carry those rocket launchers or shrink rays or whatever if you think you might need it, maybe against an bigger enemy or a vehicle that can't be brought down easily by other means. This is the choice and consequence part of it, you might come against an enemy that requires extra fire-power or a long-range weapon, meaning that assault rifle/shotgun (if that combo is possible) could still not effectively hit target from long-range (something that could be vital) OR deal enough damage against an bigger enemy. Its not enough to be able to hit everyone from any range (a combo that's often impossible to pull off efficiently), you have to think of damage output and the utility of each weapon.

Being able to carry every weapon eliminates ANY thought there is to be had when it comes to combat (and any need to use those exotic weapons you mentioned), which means that even the worst possible outcome (what you mentioned) of this two-weapon system is still better than being able to carry EVERY weapon there is.

But as i have seen from many a discussions, people's problem with regenerative health, two-weapon limit and other modern systems is not one of whether its the right choice (design-wise), but whether its "old-school" enough.

The problem with the 2 weapon capacity in games is that the developer effectively chooses the weapons for you for a given situation because the weapons that are dropping (or found) at any time can tell the player what is coming next.
whenever a shrink ray is found in a level, the designer is telling the player that that would be the best weapon for whatever lies ahead since it cannot be expected that the player has kept the shrink ray from last time.
however with the ability to have all guns on standby the player must make a choice. Do I use my shrink ray now and possibly not have enough ammo later on in the game, or use more bullets and health, while risking a game over screen in the hopes of alleviating a tough situation later? every time they fight.
Sure the first time a weapon is found it is expected to be used, but after the initial tutorial encounter for the weapon, it becomes difficult to predict when it will be needed again. In this way it is possible for a shortsighted player to use up all of his shrink ray ammo mid game, and be powerless or disadvantaged against a very large enemy later on.
That is why i find limited weapon capacity in a FPS game irritating.

 

[SageRuffin]

Yay... another thread indirectly attacking console players.

No it isn't. Its about control schemes, not players. Don't be so sensitive, and read the OP.

I did read the OP, thank you. Hence me saying it's an indirect attack on console players if for no other reason than a controller obviously not having as many buttons/keys than a keyboard.

I'm not a PC gamer, so I fail to see how big a deal this truly is, for better or for worse. Though I do admit the devs probably could've had something akin to a 4-way d-pad switch system a la Metal Arms or Serious Sam or something.

And I wouldn't be so up in arms about all this if not for the fact that the common connotation behind the term is "console gamers are too stupid too grasp complex controls like a 4-way d-pad switch system; let's tone it down for the drooling idiot masses". Come on... "dumbed down for consoles"? Why not just say "simplified"? It's a more neutral term and, as such, could be good or bad depending on the situation itself.

But hey, I'm just an idiot console player, right? What the hell do I know...

 

[Sonic Doctor]

Alright, not that I'm hating on the Duke or anything but how could Duke Nukem possibly get any dumber? That's not to say they're great games, but they've never been about complicated tactics or anything.

As people have been saying, in Duke Nukem 3D, players had a ten gun arsenal at all times, well, once a player picked up a gun, the player had it for the rest of the game, all one had to do was find ammo for each gun.

Gearbox's stupid claim that "they had to dumb it down for the consoles because a multiple gun inventory wouldn't work" is bullshit.

Heck, Duke Nukem 3D was ported to consoles and it works with the 10 gun system. Gearbox was lazy and didn't want to do the work.

Because it is lacking the robust gun inventory that the player could keep all guns on them at all times, that is how the game has been dumbed down. Plus, the old Duke's melee attack was a boot kick, but for some reason they removed that and put in a normal punch attack(I'm guessing, since I haven't played the demo).

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

As I stated in another thread:

I thought I was playing Halo with pigs.

I mean, I liked the demo, I wanted to play more, but seriously, the auto regen health and 2 weapon limit needs to go.


This isn't the Duke I remembered.

Why is it every fps developer these days feels the need to incorporate self-regenerating health and the 2 weapon arsenal. Why won't these mechanics die? What the hell was wrong with health packs? Why do they feel to the need to force me to carry only 2 weapons at a time? What's the point of this mechanic, and don't tell me realism.

I assumed Duke Nukem Forever would pay homage to the forgotten, arcadey, over-the-top first person shooters of the past. I was looking forward to climbing up a ladder backwards, holding an rpg, kicking with both legs at the same time. I was looking forward to experimenting with cool weapons on my own terms. But no, it's just another generic, brown, halo clone with a shrink ray. Thanks gearbox.

Ugh.

Halo didn't even have regen health:

YOUR SHIELDS REGENARTED, BUT YOU STILL HAD A SET HEALTH LIMIT THAT DID NOT REGENERATE.

And Halo is the furtherest FPS from "brown".

You fight in Purple alien ships, green meadows and canyans, cities, deserts, jungles, etc.

And as I stated here:

Blame 3D Realms, not Gearbox. Gearbox have had Duke for a few months, 3D Realms have been working on it for 14 years.

This.

Borderlands let you carry over 42 guns at once, this is NOT gearboxs fault.

 

[Rad Party God]

Fallout 3 and New Vegas
Oblivion
Mass Effect 1 and 2
Grand Theft Auto IV
Borderlands (what developer made this one, again?)
Timesplitters
Mafia 2
Bully
Turok 2
Goldeneye
Ratchet and Clank
Half-Life 2
Any Zelda game (the 3D ones even let you have four mapped to keys at a time if you include the sword).
Duke Nukem 3D
Perfect Dark

A small sample of games on consoles that let you have more than two weapons. I'm not even interested in Duke Nukem Forever, but I'm finding this blame being put on consoles nothing more than scapegoating tactics.

Anyone want to add to this list? Make it massive.

Doom 1, 2 & 3
Painkiller
Serious Sam
Half-Life (for the PS2)
Manhunt
Max Payne 1 & 2
MDK 1 & 2
God of War series (not an FPS, but still a console exclusive with lots of weapons)
Stranger's Wrath
Devil May Cry series
Metal Gear series
Silent Hill series (heck, not even an action game and it let you carry more than 10 weapons)
Shadow Man 2 (I remember having more than 30 weapons, I loved that Nail Gun)
Crysis 1, Warhead & 2 (it has a weapon limit itself, but not blatantly 2 weapons)
Far Cry series
BioShock (one of the most important games on this generation and it certainly had more than 2 weapons)
Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2
Bulletstorm (it even had a mighty boot for God's sake!)
Resident Evil series (ANY Resident Evil game)

And those are the ones I can come up with right now.

 

[Stavros Dimou]

Alright, not that I'm hating on the Duke or anything but how could Duke Nukem possibly get any dumber? That's not to say they're great games, but they've never been about complicated tactics or anything.

As people have been saying, in Duke Nukem 3D, players had a ten gun arsenal at all times, well, once a player picked up a gun, the player had it for the rest of the game, all one had to do was find ammo for each gun.

Gearbox's stupid claim that "they had to dumb it down for the consoles because a multiple gun inventory wouldn't work" is bullshit.

Heck, Duke Nukem 3D was ported to consoles and it works with the 10 gun system. Gearbox was lazy and didn't want to do the work.

Because it is lacking the robust gun inventory that the player could keep all guns on them at all times, that is how the game has been dumbed down. Plus, the old Duke's melee attack was a boot kick, but for some reason they removed that and put in a normal punch attack(I'm guessing, since I haven't played the demo).

It's not Gearbox's claim,it's 3D Realms's claim.

 

[Woodsey]

Yay... another thread indirectly attacking console players.

No it isn't. Its about control schemes, not players. Don't be so sensitive, and read the OP.

I did read the OP, thank you. Hence me saying it's an indirect attack on console players if for no other reason than a controller obviously not having as many buttons/keys than a keyboard.

Its not an indirect attack on console players because gamepads can't cope with weapon switches as well as a mouse wheel. That is saying absolutely nothing about console players.

"But hey, I'm just an idiot console player, right? What the hell do I know..."

Oh, shut up. You obviously have some inferiority issues you need to work on. Maybe he used the words "dumbed down" because he didn't expect anyone to have such a massive issue over something so irrelevant.

 

[Inconspicuous Trenchcoat]

Gearbox made an excuse in the OP's link something like, well, we're already using the D-pad for Duke Vision, Holo Duke etc. Couldn't they just make up and down cycle through Duke's utility and skills, and left and right cycle weapons? Or just do a selection wheel.

Watching TB play through the demo disappointed me a bit. Duke did not seem very BAMF. He felt... too frail for Duke. The only 2 weapon thing didn't help. Duke carries as many weapons as he pleases...

The dev said only having two weapons brought interesting choice into the gameplay. Well, having an entire arsenal at your whim does the same thing, AND if choice equals good gameplay as you say, then an entire armory is also more fun!

Who cares about "balance" in an over the top single player campaign. Borderlands wasn't "balanced," and it was still great fun.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Haha, this is a terrible excuse. Metroid Prime has more than two weapons (and a "weapon wheel"-type thing) and it doesn't even have a second analog stick.

 

[Alexander Cunningham]

I give it a week after release before crazed mod teams bring infinite weapons carriage.

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU TYPE THIS?

 

[crono738]

Wait, what?... They dumbed down the amount of weapons due to controller restraints? I remember Resistance: Fall of Man have a weapon wheel that worked quite well. As for the mighty boot... I'm assuming thats some kind of kick?. Like the one in Bulletstorm maybe?.... What the hell..

This. Saying that the amount of weapons you can carry is restricted by controller buttons is bullshit. Hell, Red Faction 1 & 2 didn't have this problem on the PS2/Xbox.

 

[Spygon]

Sorry what? consoles can not change between more than two weapons is total bullshit.Duke nukem 3d on the playstation allowed you to change between multiple weapons and that had even less buttons.

 

[Ultra_Caboose]

I can't really say that was the best decision... Hell, I don't play PC games, but I've played enough shooters to know my way around a menu wheel. I can understand the gameplay choice from a strategic perspective, having to carefully weigh your options before switching weapons, but Duke Nukem is definitely not a game that should be so limiting.

The only part that bugs me is that the dev's are just doing this to follow trends. They make a good point talking about balancing the challenge of a level when a character has 2 guns as opposed to all of them, but all that really requires is limiting powerful ammo or dropping more powerful enemies in with the rest of the group. Doom 3, while not the best shooter, allowed you to carry every weapon you came across and just decided to hand out powerful ammunition in rare drops, making your overpowering arsenal much more limited. It's not below Duke Nukem to have the same kind of set-up.

At this point, I think that Gearbox is just getting assaulted by marketing. The investors have waited 14 years for one game, pumping millions of dollars into it, so now they want to ensure that the game can be played by as many people as possible. Dumbed down controls and weapon selection is just another one of those "Do what the profitable guys are doing" schticks, and unfortunately it's there to stay.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

Snip

It's not Gearbox's claim,it's 3D Realms's claim.

Nowhere in the OP's post or in the link, does it say that it is 3D Realm's claim. Since the claim was from a Dev, and 3D Realms actually isn't in existence anymore(if I remember correctly), Gearbox picked up the game and finished it. So it is a Gearbox Dev that is saying it, he said that they had to dumb it down.

Again, I will say that Gearbox is lazy and didn't take an extra month to add a simple gun loadout screen so that players could have all 10 or however many guns on them at all times.

 

[Snotnarok]

I had zero interest in the game when I heard your health regens. Probably turning the game from an awesome Serious Sam run and gun game to, hide behind a wall sucking your thumb.

 

[SageRuffin]

Stuff and stuff.

How is it irrelevant? I'm one of many console players. The thread is about DNF being "dumbed down" for consoles.

Sure, the lack of a weapon wheel or d-pad switch system mechanic doesn't make a lot sense. Trust me, I understand that - Bulletstorm, Serious Sam... hell, fucking Ninja Gaiden 2, an action game, made it work. But like I said, I wouldn't be so up in arms about the term if not for the common - I repeat, the common - connotation.

Or did you forget I said that?

 

[Sonic Doctor]

Gearbox made an excuse in the OP's link something like, well, we're already using the D-pad for Duke Vision, Holo Duke etc. Couldn't they just make up and down cycle through Duke's utility and skills, and left and right cycle weapons? Or just do a selection wheel.

Mass Effect 2 used a bumper button with a load out menu for picking of the weapon to switch to, plus it had used one of the four side buttons as a cycle button, press it and it switches to the next button in line.

I don't see why they couldn't use something similar. I wonder what the bumper buttons are used for, possibly "Wiggling the Duke's ears".

 

[Hyper-space]

The problem with the 2 weapon capacity in games is that the developer effectively chooses the weapons for you for a given situation because the weapons that are dropping (or found) at any time can tell the player what is coming next.
whenever a shrink ray is found in a level, the designer is telling the player that that would be the best weapon for whatever lies ahead since it cannot be expected that the player has kept the shrink ray from last time.
however with the ability to have all guns on standby the player must make a choice. Do I use my shrink ray now and possibly not have enough ammo later on in the game, or use more bullets and health, while risking a game over screen in the hopes of alleviating a tough situation later? every time they fight.
Sure the first time a weapon is found it is expected to be used, but after the initial tutorial encounter for the weapon, it becomes difficult to predict when it will be needed again. In this way it is possible for a shortsighted player to use up all of his shrink ray ammo mid game, and be powerless or disadvantaged against a very large enemy later on.
That is why i find limited weapon capacity in a FPS game irritating.

What you are talking about is simply one possible outcome of having a two-weapon limit, meaning in light of DNF still not being out yet, it carries as much validity as saying that being able to carry 10 weapons or more means the player would end up with tons of ammo for the exotic weapons because you only had to use it once or twice.

Simply put, your scenario implies knowledge of how the game is and how their design-choices will pan out, which is false considering that the game is unreleased.

 

[Vibhor]

I sincerely hope the game gets critically panned for gameplay so that any developer would think twice before ruining old school run and gun games(I am waiting for a "realistic" version of painkiller to happen, then I can announce the end of the world)