Dev explains why Skyrim lag wont get fixed.

[Ilikemilkshake]

if its such a big problem they will look into it... maybe after they get the first portion of DLC released first though.

It wont get fixed because these problems have been there since 2009 when FO3 was released.. and they've repeatedly decided it wasnt worth fixing. (and if you read the article you'd see it pretty much cant be fixed unless they make a completely new engine.)

Wait... Fallout 3 for the PS3 lagged if you played it too long?

I played FO3 on the PS3 for hundreds of hours. I reached 20th level and wandered the wastes attempting to find every map location. My save file got embarrassingly huge (now I know why). But the game never lagged on me.

Does it matter that I have one of the older, release PS3s?

Its quite a well documented problem.
and having the older ones shouldnt make a difference (remember the older ones werent old ones back when FO3 came out) I have a 40gb ps3 and by the time i started on the DLCs the game was unplayable.
I eventually completed all the DLCs but it was a nightmare. 50% of the time was spent in under 25 fps.

 

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

On the bright side, since the game and engine is fundamentally broken and can't be fixed (and it will just get worse and the game progresses and more content is added), anyone who bought it for the PS3 should be entitled to a full refund (under UK law and the Sales of Goods Act, Skyrim on the PS3 is technically "unfit for purpose").

The game isn't broken, the console on which some play it has a memory structure that fails to work with an engine that extensive and intricate. If it was the engine, every platform should be having the problem.

Every platform does have the same problem. It is just more pronounced and easier to produce thanks to the PS3's memory architecture.

 

[Demix]

I have skyrim for the ps3 and I really haven't encountered any major issues.
Minor lag once in a long while and it's frozen ... only like 3 times (stretched across long hours of play I don't really see it as any big deal).

Then again I was able to deal with New Vegas up until lonesome road(I know it comes from Obsidian)so maybe that's my benchmark for lag.

 

[Epona]

I'm thinking that the developers would prefer to fix the problem properly, however the time it would take to do that might be the issue.

For instance, instead of having everything in 1 big save file, they could compartmentalize a bit - say have a save file for the details in a given area, like one big save file for Skyrim, then additional save files with item information for the towns. That way, it need only load the relevant save files, keeping memory requirements down. This would require a more dynamic save file format, but really it's an organisational problem, not a bug. I mean - is it a bug if I fill my memory til breaking point.

I remember on the console versions of Oblivion we had to purge every now and then, like let it clear out the memory and refresh it, otherwise the game got laggier and laggier. I imagine it's quite the same issue. If you leave an item lying around though, it won't stay forever, it gets cleaned up eventually - so I'm not sure why it's even a problem - unless that cleanup isn't doing it's job, like not de-allocating the memory when an item is destroyed. I'm inclined to think that this will be fixed by a patch, Bethesda is a big company, and if its such a big problem they will look into it... maybe after they get the first portion of DLC released first though.

I am thinking that if the developers really wanted to fix it properly, they would have. They set the release date, this isn't EA forcing BioWare to rush the game out the door. I think they don't want to invest the time and resources into fixing this and that is why they haven't. Maybe, but hopefully not, they don't have developers capable of fixing it.

See I think Bethesda is far too dependent on modders to fix their games and when they have problems on the PS3, there are no modders to do their job for them. Modders would have fixed the bugs in all of their games on the PS3 if they could but Bethesda either can't or won't.

I really do wish people would stop saying "they'll eventually fix it!". Two problems with that: 1) Their reputation suggests that they won't eventually fix it. 2) If they DO fix it and it takes them a year or two to fix it, then people who paid launch prices got ripped off

I also think it's BS to put out DLC when the game is broken.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I like Skyrim, I really do. But I'm tired of Bethesda and their crap. So I'm just going to get most of the trophies in the game, if not the platinum, and pitch it back to GameStop.

On the bright side, since the game and engine is fundamentally broken and can't be fixed (and it will just get worse and the game progresses and more content is added), anyone who bought it for the PS3 should be entitled to a full refund (under UK law and the Sales of Goods Act, Skyrim on the PS3 is technically "unfit for purpose").

The game isn't broken, the console on which some play it has a memory structure that fails to work with an engine that extensive and intricate. If it was the engine, every platform should be having the problem.

If that game is broken on a PS3 because of the console's hardware, then Bethesda shouldn't have released Skyrim on the PS3 in the first place, and ripped off several hundreds of thousands of people. Just because the console doesn't agree with the game's engine, doesn't excuse releasing a busted game for us to buy. And if it's going to stay like this permanently, then Skyrim's PS3 sales need to be discontinued, rather than endorsing it with DLC that we PS3 users will never get to play without starting completely new.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

On the bright side, since the game and engine is fundamentally broken and can't be fixed (and it will just get worse and the game progresses and more content is added), anyone who bought it for the PS3 should be entitled to a full refund (under UK law and the Sales of Goods Act, Skyrim on the PS3 is technically "unfit for purpose").

The game isn't broken, the console on which some play it has a memory structure that fails to work with an engine that extensive and intricate. If it was the engine, every platform should be having the problem.

Every platform does have the same problem. Its just that the Ps3 is less equipped to deal with the problem, so its more apparant on that system.

If you're trying to say it isnt Bethesdas fault that the ps3s RAM architecture is the problem, while that is true, Bethesda still chose to use their engine which they know doesnt work on the system. So they should either make a new engine, or not put the game on the PS3.

As it is now they're charging full price for a product that doesnt function as it should.

 

[Wolfram23]

Orrrr they could sub divide the save files by location?? Most of the items that can be moved around are in cities or dungeons. Seems like a fairly simple fix.

Save game -> save file 1-a, 1-b, 1-c, etc created.

Load game -> save file 1-a loaded. Enter new region -> save file 1-e loaded. Etc.

 

[Epona]

I read Digital Foundry's analysis [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-ps3-skyrim-lag] of this problem on the PS3 and it's pretty bad, dropping to 0FPS at times, but apparently if you only play for a maximum of 30 minutes then save and restart your PS3, the game is just about playable.

On the bright side, since the game and engine is fundamentally broken and can't be fixed (and it will just get worse and the game progresses and more content is added), anyone who bought it for the PS3 should be entitled to a full refund (under UK law and the Sales of Goods Act, Skyrim on the PS3 is technically "unfit for purpose").

Considering that these issues have existed since FO3, why have Bethesda 1) not fixed it. or 2) bothered porting the game to the ps3 when they know that the way their game works will almost definatly cause the game to degrade to a point of unplayability?

I think the reason they haven't fix it is because they can't. Todd Howard has admitted there are some things about their engine that they just can't figure out or fix, so instead they just avoid the problem (e.g. they couldn't get ladders to work, so there are no usable ladders in their games).

As for why they bothered to release it on the PS3 in such a broken state, perhaps it just didn't get picked up by the QA team. After all, the problem only manifests after a substantial amount of time and the QA team were doing 2 hour speedruns.

You can't really expect them to test a game for as long as any customer might play it, not when they had so much to do in so little time. Remember Skyrim had to be released on all 3 platform on 11/11/11 otherwise it wouldn't be special.

That article is a very interesting read, since it gives a better explanation that i did, ive edited it into my first post just incase people dont see your post.

And okay, they cant test the game as much as millions of players can at home, but surely if this would have come up? It took me 20 hours to get my save to 6Mb (reportedly the point at which problems start happening).. surely someone must have played for at least 20 hours?
And even if they didnt these problems have been recurring since FO3. My Ps3 Goty FO3 (wow alot of acronyms there) save file ended up somewhere in the region of 24mb, and alot of the DLCs i had to struggle through at 10fps (i was determined to play what i had paid for)

If they cant fix or change the engine to solve this problem, they really shouldnt be selling a broken game.

You mean they really shouldn't sell a game on a console that is incapable of running it, I assume.

Currently nearing the 70 hour, 400 saves mark and the only lag I get is around cities I havent visited in several hours, but only last a second or two.

So you doubt the problem exists?

 

[Deathninja19]

Sorry if this has been posted before, i did a search but didnt find anything.

Here's the Link http://www.gamersmint.com/ps3-skyrim-lag-problems-unlikely-to-be-solved-dev-comments

(EDIT: For the benefit of anyone who might see this post and not read into the replies, heres another link user Jamash posted that also goes into detail and has vids of the lag in question
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-ps3-skyrim-lag
It basically proves the game is broken, they load a 65 hour save which at times gets 0 fps, then a completely new save which is completely fine)

So basically a dev who worked on FO3 and FONV has shed some light on the memory issues that are causing alot of problems for players, especially on the ps3.

For those too lazy to go to the article i'll try and sum it up as best as i understand it:
Basically everytime you interact with something, the game makes a note of that change, whether its picking up an apple to murdering a guard, This is why save files increase so much over the course of the game (mine is currently at 15mb).

This is a problem because the game continuously keeps track of and loads everything in the game world even when you're not in the area, so all of your changes are draining ram meant for actually just playing the game.. meaning you lag.

He explains this probably wont be fixed, because like in FO3 and FONV its an engine issue, they'd have to completely redesign the game.. which wont happen in a patch.

The PS3 is also particularly susceptible because unlike the 360 which has 512mb ram which can be used for anything, the ps3 has divided ram, half for graphics half for processing. Meaning that a patch isnt going to fix the PS3 problems, and the game will stay broken for anyone who's put any time into it.

Considering that these issues have existed since FO3, why have Bethesda 1) not fixed it. or 2) bothered porting the game to the ps3 when they know that the way their game works will almost definatly cause the game to degrade to a point of unplayability?

I love Bethesdas games, especially Skyrim but i dont understand why they keep putting out fundamentally broken games and getting away with it.

Where would the refund come from the supplier or Bethesda, in fact would Bethesda be suseptable to UK law since it's a foreign company? I have no idea about this area of the law.

The thing that annoys me is that why isn't there more of an outcry about this, I mean you are lucky if you bought a non-PS3 version but people fail to understand if we let Bethesda get away with this then that gives them free reign to this this in the future and on another platform. This is a huge thing affecting all gamers but people are ignoring it because they got what they wanted so fuck everyone else.

These articles explain my point better:

http://www.gamesradar.com/high-horse-when-gaming-community-not-selfish-self-destructive-mess/

http://www.gamesradar.com/high-horse-broken-ps3-skyrim-was-inevitable-inexcusable-and-may-be-your-fault/

 

[Versuvius]

The PS3 really got the shit end of the stick for this. On the PC i haven't had any game breaking bugs or performance issues. Maybe i'm lucky but seriously, i thought better of Bethesda. Buggy ass games yes, badly designed..well no not really, and now? My rage knows no bounds!

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Well so much for trying to get a platinum trophy in this game...

Call me crazy or unrealistic, but... couldn't all of these issues be avoided by starting a new character? I know as one gains higher levels, they get new armor and stuff, but doesn't that eventually max out? There's only so many different types of items in a game So maybe this would work: do half the quest lines as one character (getting half the trophies), and start a new character and do a completely different section of the game. If it's really that bad, this seems like a reasonable compromise, especially since there are so many different character classes to play as. In fact, I go so far as to say in New Vegas, they were trying to encourage that model, considering the way the trophies were set up (most of the trophies were based on finishing the main quest while allying with each different faction). I consider myself a pretty diehard Bethesda fan and I don't think I ever got very far past the 70 hour mark in any of their games so far.

 

[Epona]

So basically, it's really, really, really bad memory management.

But yeah, it's either this or loading screens. I don't think developers these days have the time and resources to make a efficient file scream mechanism, especially for such a big game.

Yes and no. It's more the devs not being given ample time to come up with an engine solution for the PS3's memory constraints relative to the 360/PC due to the split memory pool architecture inside it. Can be explained but only through random numbers as I don't have exact figures on me

Let's say a game loads 128MB of texture and other graphical data and 128MB of general purpose data at any one time before savestate of objects is taken into account.
On the 360 you'll have 256MB of RAM free for your save to play around in due to it's single memory pool (512MB unified)
On the PS3 you'll have 128MB of RAM free to use for your save data. This is due to the way in which the RAM is set up with 2 separate and discrete 256MB pools with one for textural and graphical data and one for general purpose use. You can't use the remainder of the first RAM pool to complement the second one and so you have 128MB of wasted RAM that isn't being used and a smaller amount for the save data.

This does mean that in theory you could replicate it on the 360 but the effort required would likely be enormous ie in a 3 ingame day timeframe manipulate every single object in the world and change the contents of most if not all containers and NPCs and the positions of each companion and ai routine (set them all running for home from halfway acros the map at the same time etc)

SO it's really bad memory management and yes, they had time. They set their own release date and apparently hitting the cool 11-11-11 date was the priority. Let's not fool ourselves though, this problem has been around for 3 games, I think it's safe to say that given more time they still wouldn't be able to fix it.

If you can't program the PS3 properly Bethesda, don't release games on the PS3.

A fix for it would have required an entirely new engine as it can make itself appear on any version. That the PS3's memory architecture makes it appear both more frequently and easily does not imply that the can't code for it just that the architecture is extraordinarily unsuited for that engine and type of game.

If it requires a new engine to make it run properly on the PS3 then they should have made (or licensed) one or they should have not released it on the PS3.

It's amazing to me how many people give Bethesda a pass for selling a broken and unplayable game. Any other product that breaks after 20 hours of use would be returned for a full refund and no one would be trying to place the blame elsewhere. No, it's not the fault of the PS3. The PS3 is what it is and if your game doesn't work on the PS3, it's the fault of the developers. Isn't it fraud to sell a knowingly defective product that can't be used for it's intended purpose?

 

[RagTagBand]

I haven't read the thread so forgive me but wasn't skyrim built on a new engine? or have lazy-fuckers-the-lot-of-them Bethesda once again fobbed us off with a dated, broken engine with only minor graphical and interface upgrades?

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

I haven't read the thread so forgive me but wasn't skyrim built on a new engine? or have lazy-fuckers-the-lot-of-them Bethesda once again fobbed us off with a dated, broken engine with only minor graphical and interface upgrades?

Its fundamentally the same Gamebryo engine which they've just made some changes to and renamed it the Creation engine. Most of the same code is there, and certainly the same problem with the memory.

Where would the refund come from the supplier or Bethesda, in fact would Bethesda be suseptable to UK law since it's a foreign company? I have no idea about this area of the law.

Honestly, i dont really know. I'd suspect that if you were to return it to anyone, it would be the retailer, who would then deduct that refund from whatever payment they make to bethesda for the sale... However thats just a guess. I dont actually know how it works so i could be completely wrong.

 

[Deathninja19]

Well so much for trying to get a platinum trophy in this game...

Call me crazy or unrealistic, but... couldn't all of these issues be avoided by starting a new character? I know as one gains higher levels, they get new armor and stuff, but doesn't that eventually max out? There's only so many different types of items in a game So maybe this would work: do half the quest lines as one character (getting half the trophies), and start a new character and do a completely different section of the game. If it's really that bad, this seems like a reasonable compromise, especially since there are so many different character classes to play as. In fact, I go so far as to say in New Vegas, they were trying to encourage that model, considering the way the trophies were set up (most of the trophies were based on finishing the main quest while allying with each different faction). I consider myself a pretty diehard Bethesda fan and I don't think I ever got very far past the 70 hour mark in any of their games so far.

The point is that we shouldn't have to restart we should be able to play for however long we want. I appreciate where you're coming from, I love Bethesda but if a company releases a broken product it is their fault not the consumers and Bethesda should be doing all they could to fix this or replace defective products.

Through the years I've constanly had problems with Bethesda products but I remained an apologist but this is the straw that broke the camel's back, I'm not defending Bethesda anymore they are in the wrong here and I'm not gonna fall for their shit anymore.

 

[Imper1um]

Come over to the Dark (X360) Side, Luke.

But, seriously. This is a case of someone allocating memory without clearing it. Its a memory leak. The memory gets allocated over and over without being cleared, and the GC can't do its job.

Its not about WHAT the game is tracking, its HOW it clears out the old information that it was tracking, but is no longer using. That dev just has no idea how to debug memory leak issues.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Bethesda is the only company that does what they do so I'm NOT going to ***** about it.

To this day I'll pop in Fallout 3 or Fallout:NV (or Skyrim) and once in a while (like 6-8 hours of play) it will start to lag. New Vegas actually still freezes up on me once in a while. But I just reboot my system every time instead of like, returning it to gamestop or throwing it out the window. Why? Because there are no games (except for the prequals) like Fallout 3, New Vegas or Skyrim. And they are some of the only games I think are worth/more than the $60 - $80 I pay for them. Can it be a problem, sure but what do you think Valve games don't have any immersion breaking problems? Or Ubisoft(those guards still twitch when I assassinate them)? etc etc.

Even at the worst of times glitches or lags I've experienced in FO3,NV or Skyrim have never been game breakers. Sure they break immersion a little but for fucks sake reboot, give it a few minutes and you'll forget all about it.