Dev explains why Skyrim lag wont get fixed.

[Versuvius]

The PS3 really got the shit end of the stick for this. On the PC i haven't had any game breaking bugs or performance issues. Maybe i'm lucky but seriously, i thought better of Bethesda. Buggy ass games yes, badly designed..well no not really, and now? My rage knows no bounds!

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Well so much for trying to get a platinum trophy in this game...

Call me crazy or unrealistic, but... couldn't all of these issues be avoided by starting a new character? I know as one gains higher levels, they get new armor and stuff, but doesn't that eventually max out? There's only so many different types of items in a game So maybe this would work: do half the quest lines as one character (getting half the trophies), and start a new character and do a completely different section of the game. If it's really that bad, this seems like a reasonable compromise, especially since there are so many different character classes to play as. In fact, I go so far as to say in New Vegas, they were trying to encourage that model, considering the way the trophies were set up (most of the trophies were based on finishing the main quest while allying with each different faction). I consider myself a pretty diehard Bethesda fan and I don't think I ever got very far past the 70 hour mark in any of their games so far.

 

[Epona]

So basically, it's really, really, really bad memory management.

But yeah, it's either this or loading screens. I don't think developers these days have the time and resources to make a efficient file scream mechanism, especially for such a big game.

Yes and no. It's more the devs not being given ample time to come up with an engine solution for the PS3's memory constraints relative to the 360/PC due to the split memory pool architecture inside it. Can be explained but only through random numbers as I don't have exact figures on me

Let's say a game loads 128MB of texture and other graphical data and 128MB of general purpose data at any one time before savestate of objects is taken into account.
On the 360 you'll have 256MB of RAM free for your save to play around in due to it's single memory pool (512MB unified)
On the PS3 you'll have 128MB of RAM free to use for your save data. This is due to the way in which the RAM is set up with 2 separate and discrete 256MB pools with one for textural and graphical data and one for general purpose use. You can't use the remainder of the first RAM pool to complement the second one and so you have 128MB of wasted RAM that isn't being used and a smaller amount for the save data.

This does mean that in theory you could replicate it on the 360 but the effort required would likely be enormous ie in a 3 ingame day timeframe manipulate every single object in the world and change the contents of most if not all containers and NPCs and the positions of each companion and ai routine (set them all running for home from halfway acros the map at the same time etc)

SO it's really bad memory management and yes, they had time. They set their own release date and apparently hitting the cool 11-11-11 date was the priority. Let's not fool ourselves though, this problem has been around for 3 games, I think it's safe to say that given more time they still wouldn't be able to fix it.

If you can't program the PS3 properly Bethesda, don't release games on the PS3.

A fix for it would have required an entirely new engine as it can make itself appear on any version. That the PS3's memory architecture makes it appear both more frequently and easily does not imply that the can't code for it just that the architecture is extraordinarily unsuited for that engine and type of game.

If it requires a new engine to make it run properly on the PS3 then they should have made (or licensed) one or they should have not released it on the PS3.

It's amazing to me how many people give Bethesda a pass for selling a broken and unplayable game. Any other product that breaks after 20 hours of use would be returned for a full refund and no one would be trying to place the blame elsewhere. No, it's not the fault of the PS3. The PS3 is what it is and if your game doesn't work on the PS3, it's the fault of the developers. Isn't it fraud to sell a knowingly defective product that can't be used for it's intended purpose?

 

[RagTagBand]

I haven't read the thread so forgive me but wasn't skyrim built on a new engine? or have lazy-fuckers-the-lot-of-them Bethesda once again fobbed us off with a dated, broken engine with only minor graphical and interface upgrades?

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

I haven't read the thread so forgive me but wasn't skyrim built on a new engine? or have lazy-fuckers-the-lot-of-them Bethesda once again fobbed us off with a dated, broken engine with only minor graphical and interface upgrades?

Its fundamentally the same Gamebryo engine which they've just made some changes to and renamed it the Creation engine. Most of the same code is there, and certainly the same problem with the memory.

Where would the refund come from the supplier or Bethesda, in fact would Bethesda be suseptable to UK law since it's a foreign company? I have no idea about this area of the law.

Honestly, i dont really know. I'd suspect that if you were to return it to anyone, it would be the retailer, who would then deduct that refund from whatever payment they make to bethesda for the sale... However thats just a guess. I dont actually know how it works so i could be completely wrong.

 

[Deathninja19]

Well so much for trying to get a platinum trophy in this game...

Call me crazy or unrealistic, but... couldn't all of these issues be avoided by starting a new character? I know as one gains higher levels, they get new armor and stuff, but doesn't that eventually max out? There's only so many different types of items in a game So maybe this would work: do half the quest lines as one character (getting half the trophies), and start a new character and do a completely different section of the game. If it's really that bad, this seems like a reasonable compromise, especially since there are so many different character classes to play as. In fact, I go so far as to say in New Vegas, they were trying to encourage that model, considering the way the trophies were set up (most of the trophies were based on finishing the main quest while allying with each different faction). I consider myself a pretty diehard Bethesda fan and I don't think I ever got very far past the 70 hour mark in any of their games so far.

The point is that we shouldn't have to restart we should be able to play for however long we want. I appreciate where you're coming from, I love Bethesda but if a company releases a broken product it is their fault not the consumers and Bethesda should be doing all they could to fix this or replace defective products.

Through the years I've constanly had problems with Bethesda products but I remained an apologist but this is the straw that broke the camel's back, I'm not defending Bethesda anymore they are in the wrong here and I'm not gonna fall for their shit anymore.

 

[Imper1um]

Come over to the Dark (X360) Side, Luke.

But, seriously. This is a case of someone allocating memory without clearing it. Its a memory leak. The memory gets allocated over and over without being cleared, and the GC can't do its job.

Its not about WHAT the game is tracking, its HOW it clears out the old information that it was tracking, but is no longer using. That dev just has no idea how to debug memory leak issues.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Bethesda is the only company that does what they do so I'm NOT going to ***** about it.

To this day I'll pop in Fallout 3 or Fallout:NV (or Skyrim) and once in a while (like 6-8 hours of play) it will start to lag. New Vegas actually still freezes up on me once in a while. But I just reboot my system every time instead of like, returning it to gamestop or throwing it out the window. Why? Because there are no games (except for the prequals) like Fallout 3, New Vegas or Skyrim. And they are some of the only games I think are worth/more than the $60 - $80 I pay for them. Can it be a problem, sure but what do you think Valve games don't have any immersion breaking problems? Or Ubisoft(those guards still twitch when I assassinate them)? etc etc.

Even at the worst of times glitches or lags I've experienced in FO3,NV or Skyrim have never been game breakers. Sure they break immersion a little but for fucks sake reboot, give it a few minutes and you'll forget all about it.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

Considering that these issues have existed since FO3, why have Bethesda 1) not fixed it. or 2) bothered porting the game to the ps3 when they know that the way their game works will almost definatly cause the game to degrade to a point of unplayability?

Because it's not a universal problem. Everyone's acting like it's some HUGE thing and that EVERY PLAYER ON THE PS3 CAN'T EVEN PLAY THE DAMN GAME!

No... no, that's not true. While IGN did a poll, only 51% of people experience lag, and only a small fraction of them experienced it so bad they had to restart the game. Even a smaller fraction said the game was "unplayable".

You simply have to do some developer magic to get it to work right... but it's not as bad as you'd make it out to be... or anyone, really.

The point is, For alot of people the game doesnt function properly. Im aware that not everyone is experiancing problems but the people that are have paid good money for a product that doesnt work for them. And Bethesda has known about these problems for years, yet they still continue to ship their games... if it were any other industry they wouldnt get away with it.

 

[Deathninja19]

Where would the refund come from the supplier or Bethesda, in fact would Bethesda be suseptable to UK law since it's a foreign company? I have no idea about this area of the law.

Honestly, i dont really know. I'd suspect that if you were to return it to anyone, it would be the retailer, who would then deduct that refund from whatever payment they make to bethesda for the sale... However thats just a guess. I dont actually know how it works so i could be completely wrong.

Yeah no problem, with these kinds of laws there's so many loopholes and smallprint that unless there's a class action lawsuit or something of the like to prove that this is a defective product I'm sure there will be a way for the supplier or retailer to refuse to replace the game especially so long after buying this. I got this problem a week after buying this but stupidly I waited for a patch that may never come.

 

[Swyftstar]

While I'm not excusing Bethesda, I don't think Sony should get a pass on this one either. Not having enough RAM is just silly. Not having cross game chat is annoying and this isn't the first game to exhibit issues because of it. DC Universe Online used to crash religiously because of the low memory problem. Also, when I'm online on my PS3, it will occasionally freeze or tell me there isn't enough memory so the web page is being replaced with a blank screen.
For Bethesda's part, releasing this game when there is a known issue, without at least a warning is shady.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Nice to have it confirmed that they knowingly sold me a broken game. Fuck you too, Bethesda.

 

[Deathninja19]

Wait... Fallout 3 for the PS3 lagged if you played it too long?

I played FO3 on the PS3 for hundreds of hours. I reached 20th level and wandered the wastes attempting to find every map location. My save file got embarrassingly huge (now I know why). But the game never lagged on me.

Does it matter that I have one of the older, release PS3s?

No I think like me you just got lucky there, in fact I had no idea there was a fallout problem until people started to compare it to this.

 

[Gazisultima]

Typical PC user, always thinking you are above others, displaying an arrogance I've never actually seen before. People can choose to buy whatever system they like for gaming. Just because you can afford a rig that can play modern games doesn't make you better than others. God this is my current pet peeve with the gaming community. It's pathetic.

And I do genuinely feel sorry for PS3 gamers. They have it rough

EDIT: It didn't quote, so I apologise to the decent PC gamers out there who aren't stuck up their own arses, which I know is the majority

 

[GaltarDude1138]

The only lag I'm really concerned with is when I bring up the menu and my controls suddenly go dead for about 3 seconds and I can't select anything. It's annoying as hell and it happens whenever I bring up the menu.

I bet it's a console thing, too...

 

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

Considering that these issues have existed since FO3, why have Bethesda 1) not fixed it. or 2) bothered porting the game to the ps3 when they know that the way their game works will almost definatly cause the game to degrade to a point of unplayability?

Because it's not a universal problem. Everyone's acting like it's some HUGE thing and that EVERY PLAYER ON THE PS3 CAN'T EVEN PLAY THE DAMN GAME!

No... no, that's not true. While IGN did a poll, only 51% of people experience lag, and only a small fraction of them experienced it so bad they had to restart the game. Even a smaller fraction said the game was "unplayable".

You simply have to do some developer magic to get it to work right... but it's not as bad as you'd make it out to be... or anyone, really.

Every single copy no matter the system has the potential for the exact same issue. Playstyle will be the main determininator as to when you experience it though and how you can minimise the impact it will have. That is undisputable fact backed up by developers who have worked on the engine based entirely around the way in which savegames and object data is both stored and loaded in engine.

Other minor thing is this a framerate issue not lag which is a fundamentally different thing altogether.

 

[Buizel91]

Glad i use the 360 then...i had lag for about 30 seconds then everything was fine again...and has been for a good week now.

Still, you would think it would be a pretty simple problem to fix...someone said it earlier by having it save in sub sections, so when you move to a new area (i assume like dragon age, only with bigger area's) then that area and the items/enemies/whatever else load up...and repeated for whenever you enter a new area of the world, sure it's a piss take but at least it would be playable on PS3.

Unrelated note

Yeh Bro! You tell them about that rainfall!

 

[Deathninja19]

Well so much for trying to get a platinum trophy in this game...

Call me crazy or unrealistic, but... couldn't all of these issues be avoided by starting a new character? I know as one gains higher levels, they get new armor and stuff, but doesn't that eventually max out? There's only so many different types of items in a game So maybe this would work: do half the quest lines as one character (getting half the trophies), and start a new character and do a completely different section of the game. If it's really that bad, this seems like a reasonable compromise, especially since there are so many different character classes to play as. In fact, I go so far as to say in New Vegas, they were trying to encourage that model, considering the way the trophies were set up (most of the trophies were based on finishing the main quest while allying with each different faction). I consider myself a pretty diehard Bethesda fan and I don't think I ever got very far past the 70 hour mark in any of their games so far.

The point is that we shouldn't have to restart we should be able to play for however long we want. I appreciate where you're coming from, I love Bethesda but if a company releases a broken product it is their fault not the consumers and Bethesda should be doing all they could to fix this or replace defective products.

Through the years I've constanly had problems with Bethesda products but I remained an apologist but this is the straw that broke the camel's back, I'm not defending Bethesda anymore they are in the wrong here and I'm not gonna fall for their shit anymore.

I'm not going to be an apologist for Bethesda, and I'll concede that they probably should have just used a new engine (I was VERY disappointed when I found out that the "Creation Engine" was just an updated GameBryo engine). But the problem with you and many people is that you make it sound like it's the VAST majority who have game breaking issues. They don't. The vast majority have glitches, sure, but they are no where near "game breaking".

I've actually been incredibly impressed with Bethesda products. I've never had a glitchy one, and with the exception of the occassional crash or backwards flying dragon (aka, not too bad), I've encountered few.

I know that I'm not a minority because of statistics and polls my friend. search IGN for the simplest one. Other people have done them too though, and it's clear that while annoying issue crop up, they aren't "game breaking".

I'm sorry that you seem to have such bad luck though.

I can see where you are coming from and I'm honestly glad you were lucky but as I said it doesn't matter how many people this effects what matters is that this is a real proven problem and the fact is people are letting Bethesda get away with it.

In the future when you buy the next Bethesda game there is a possibility that you will experience a game breaking glitch just because you are letting the company get away with such messy and plain broken game design. I'm sorry but you need to realise that just because a company isn't screwing you over now doesn't mean they will screw you over in the future.

 

[karloss01]

Wow. I'm on 360 with 165 hours and I've only had serious lag occur once. It was

Spoiler

the final mission in the Thieves Guild, in the cave with the pretty sparkilies

and I simply restarted my console and no lag since. I always assumed the PS3 had superior hardware to the 360. Guess I was wrong.

Same here, wonder if anyone else had the same problem on the 360?

 

[Epona]

While I'm not excusing Bethesda, I don't think Sony should get a pass on this one either. Not having enough RAM is just silly. Not having cross game chat is annoying and this isn't the first game to exhibit issues because of it. DC Universe Online used to crash religiously because of the low memory problem. Also, when I'm online on my PS3, it will occasionally freeze or tell me there isn't enough memory so the web page is being replaced with a blank screen.
For Bethesda's part, releasing this game when there is a known issue, without at least a warning is shady.

LOL, what?

Blame Sony because Bethesda can't make their games work well on the PS3? Sony may share some of the blame, they should have told Bethesda to fix it before they allowed it on the PS3 but Bethesda's incompetence is not Sony's fault.

If you tried to make a game for the Wii and it lagged really bad, would you really blame Nintendo?