Devs Had to Demand Female Focus Testers for The Last of Us

[UberPubert]

-snip-

How can all criticism be important and yet your five hundred grandmothers not be important test subjects? I have it on good authority they have lots of spending money and free time for hobbies, so why not let them test for the Last of us? How can the opinions of people outside of the target audience always be valid until they're the ones that have dictated the trends we currently see in gaming? Why - specifically - do females of any age have to be tested, why not just let gamers who may be of whatever gender do it?

Play-testing a genre game with your target audience is just to make sure the people you're relying on to buy your product actually like it. If other demographics also enjoy it that's fine, but you can't expect them to buy it if they aren't interested in the first place and if you change it to appeal to them you run the risk of alienating the audience you originally made and marketed the game for with the projected sales figures turning into a big question mark. When AAA publishers say they're "branching" out into other demographics with their next game, they mean they want the next dead space to draw in the gears of war crowd, not to appeal more to general audiences everywhere.

 

[Dr.Panties]

Ew! Eeeeew! Girls germs all over my game! That is just, like, SO gross!

(Ew!)

 

[Lilani]

How can all criticism be important and yet your five hundred grandmothers not be important test subjects? I have it on good authority they have lots of spending money and free time for hobbies, so why not let them test for the Last of us? How can the opinions of people outside of the target audience always be valid until they're the ones that have dictated the trends we currently see in gaming? Why - specifically - do females of any age have to be tested, why not just let gamers who may be of whatever gender do it?

Everything comes with a point of reasonability. Unless you're going to argue there is literally no middle ground between ONLY testing white heterosexual males between the ages of 18-30 and ONLY testing 500 grandmothers, I think you know full well what I'm getting at here. And unless you're going to argue there is absolutely no potential for difference between how a male might react to something and how a female might, I think you also know full well there is a value in it.

And I think there is evidence of this that already exists. If 2K Games had tested male and female focus groups on the Bioshock Infinite cover, do you really think the females would have so unanimously preferred relegating Elizabeth to the back cover? Do you really think both males and females are equally enamored with playing as only a white 30-something male with brown hair and stubble?

Play-testing a genre game with your target audience is just to make sure the people you're relying on to buy your product actually like it. If other demographics also enjoy it that's fine, but you can't expect them to buy it if they aren't interested in the first place and if you change it to appeal to them you run the risk of alienating the audience you originally made and marketed the game for with the projected sales figures turning into a big question mark. When AAA publishers say they're "branching" out into other demographics with their next game, they mean they want the next dead space to draw in the gears of war crowd, not to appeal more to general audiences everywhere.

Don't you think there's a paradox going on when it's very clear the goal of AAA games as of late has been to cast the widest net to get the most money, yet the net they're aiming for with demographics is actually very limited? Women are becoming a larger and larger portion of the market, and while men may still make up the majority they're going to have to learn to deal with us one way or another. If they haven't learned how to make a game that can't appeal to both at once (which shouldn't really be that hard, it's been done so many times now), then they'd better start figuring out how because we aren't going anywhere and the more they pretend we don't exist the more money they're losing out on.

I see only playtesting males as a self-perpetuating problem. You only playtest with males, so the changes you make are geared toward male sensibilities and are completely unchecked by any other opinions, which limits the game's appeal even more. If you've got a specific demographic in mind then fine, but AAA publishers want big sales, and systematically shutting out 30-40% of the gaming population is only shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Nowhere Man]

Way to go Naughty Dog! Screw these publishers and research firms that still cater to the "girls have cooties, gaming is just for boyz" mentality. What are we in 4th grade? I can't wait for this game and it'll more than likely be my last console game so I hope and expect it to be damn good.

 

[EHKOS]

That box art thing...it sounds like they're describing Bioshock Infinite's. Seriously, Elizabeth is on the back.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Good on Naughty Dog for trying to ensure that their focus groups represent the demographics they're selling to so they can improve their game, but this isn't about equality. The Last of Us is a game females might enjoy. Not every game should be focus tested using 50/50 males and females out of principle whether or not it is marketed to one demographic rather than the other.

 

[Techno Squidgy]

...smack a woman on the ass as she walks by because it will "improve her mood and make her feel good about herself"

I've got to remember that one. Might help in court

OT:
Naughty Dog appear to be the game industry's own paragon of virtue at this point. I wonder if they actually are as well, and not just keeping up appearances.

 

[Reaper195]

Naughty Dog just keep proving how awesome they are. Even when the story in Uncharted 3 wasn't better than 2...it was still more fun than the second (Only mired by lack of better story).

 

[Legion]

Unnamed research firm?

How is that considered a valid enough source to warrant a claim such as this? This is no different from the unnamed publishers who Jim mentioned in his video a couple of weeks ago. No names or companies are mentioned in regards to who actually said or done these things, so as far as news reporting goes, it has no validity.

If it is true, I understand the reaction, and agree that it is completely wrong, but as it stands, I don't understand the knee-jerk responses to completely unverified sources.

 

[6_Qubed]

Honestly is this really that suprising? I mean considering that the gender ratio of people who buy any given game is probably something like 9:1 in favor of males, is it really surprising that a market research firm decided to go with the (vastly) larger audience? They're hired to gauge sales potential, after all, not uphold gender equality.

Be that as it may though, it seems odd that, assuming one is aiming for largest possible market, one would deliberately shut out potential customer bases solely on the grounds that their contribution is unlikely. Not insubstantial, mind you, but merely unlikely? This is supposed to be a research firm, dammit, not a fucking horse race.

Let's take sex/gender politics out of it for a second, in as much as we can. Using your example, if the percentage of gamers in a given demographic compared to the entire market is only one out of every ten, would it not then make sense to make one out of every ten testers a representative of that demographic?

But we can't truly take the politics out of it, can we. Considering the metric fuckton of sexism shit dropped on gaming and geek culture recently, why would a company deliberately expose themselves to this kind of bad press? It makes no fucking sense!

Female gamers might be rare, but that's not the same thing as nonexistent. I don't know many gamer girls, but I do know a few, and denying the whole lot any sort of representation is what got us all into this mess in the first place.

 

[UberPubert]

Everything comes with a point of reasonability. Unless you're going to argue there is literally no middle ground between ONLY testing white heterosexual males between the ages of 18-30 and ONLY testing 500 grandmothers, I think you know full well what I'm getting at here. And unless you're going to argue there is absolutely no potential for difference between how a male might react to something and how a female might, I think you also know full well there is a value in it.

And I think there is evidence of this that already exists. If 2K Games had tested male and female focus groups on the Bioshock Infinite cover, do you really think the females would have so unanimously preferred relegating Elizabeth to the back cover? Do you really think both males and females are equally enamored with playing as only a white 30-something male with brown hair and stubble?

I knew what you were getting at but I still don't think you're grasping that the difference of target audiences between focus tested white male gamers and the elderly is no more inadmissible than that of average female gamers. What appeals to male gamers in the video games they love just might never appeal to female gamers: Even if Isaac were actually a promiscuous young independent latino woman it still wouldn't change the fact you spend the majority of Dead Space without dialogue and covered head to toe in armor while blowing limbs off of things that should be dead. Changing the box art of Bioshock Infinite isn't going to change that it's still a story told from the perspective of a man about a woman in a game about ideals, prejudice, and shooting people in the face with their zappy hands. Female gamers might still not like that, and neither will their grandmothers, but that's not going to change the content of the game on any level besides the superficial.

Don't you think there's a paradox going on when it's very clear the goal of AAA games as of late has been to cast the widest net to get the most money, yet the net they're aiming for with demographics is actually very limited? Women are becoming a larger and larger portion of the market, and while men may still make up the majority they're going to have to learn to deal with us one way or another. If they haven't learned how to make a game that can't appeal to both at once (which shouldn't really be that hard, it's been done so many times now), then they'd better start figuring out how because we aren't going anywhere and the more they pretend we don't exist the more money they're losing out on.

I see only playtesting males as a self-perpetuating problem. You only playtest with males, so the changes you make are geared toward male sensibilities and are completely unchecked by any other opinions, which limits the game's appeal even more. If you've got a specific demographic in mind then fine, but AAA publishers want big sales, and systematically shutting out 30-40% of the gaming population is only shooting themselves in the foot.

AAA Publishers have a lot of problems but they're only pandering towards a certain demographic because they continue to shell out money year after year for their games, regardless of the quality of the content. There's a lot of things wrong with that, none of it I think is specifically because there weren't more females in play-testing sessions. Play-testing with males isn't a problem to publishers because they keep buying their games, so how could they possibly think something is wrong? There's not a "Stagnation of ideas" line graph they can turn to let them know when they need to mix things up, all they see are the sales numbers (which have yet to truly fail - after all, is Bioshock infinite really going to tank because of it's box art?). They'd only be shooting themselves in the foot if there was a guarantee they could make more money while spending less by switching to making games aimed at female gamers (or both) and then refused to do it, while they continued to lose money while aiming at male gamers exclusively. But it's never that simple, so it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Aramis Night]

This is all fine and well here and there. But i think if this practice was implemented on a large scale industry wide it could have some pretty bad consequences. There does come a point where you have to acknowledge that different groups of people like different things and this is especially true between the genders. Same with things different groups do not like which is also true between men and women in general. The problem with compromise is it often causes both sides to be less than 100% thrilled with what they wind up with since they only get 50% of what they wanted.

I'm not trying to say that women shouldn't have games that cater to their tastes. I just think it may be a better idea to focus on them completely from the beginning of a games development if you want to make a game for them. I think that some of the backlash from some defensive male gamers is based on fear that what appeals to them in a game may be diluted by attempting to bring in too much female input. At the same time i think its a little disingenuous for gaming companies to claim to want to get more female input on games that are already pretty much done, before women's viewpoints are taken into account. At that point its not as though any big leaps in game design are likely to take place. Maybe cosmetics at most.

Now of course i understand the goal is to be able to sell both groups the same product to increase sales. At least that is what the game companies are hoping for. For them its potentially more money for the same amount of work. Anyone remember when the music industry was trying to push rock/rap on everyone? I don't see this overall working out much better in the long run. People just tend to like different things and combining genres and tastes always run the risk of alienating those you try to cater to.

This doesn't mean that games wont be made that appeal to both men and women. That already happens all the time. Some things are just universally admired and enjoyed. Sometimes they were made more for men/boys(bioshock seems to be the current example) and other times they were intended for women/girls(MLP as evidenced by many on these forums).

 

[rbstewart7263]

That box art thing just angers me.

I consider the box art bit for bioshock and the last of us to be very tiny anthills that people want to make a big thing about. But good on ND for polling the other half of the gaming demographic.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Unnamed research firm?

How is that considered a valid enough source to warrant a claim such as this? This is no different from the unnamed publishers who Jim mentioned in his video a couple of weeks ago. No names or companies are mentioned in regards to who actually said or done these things, so as far as news reporting goes, it has no validity.

If it is true, I understand the reaction, and agree that it is completely wrong, but as it stands, I don't understand the knee-jerk responses to completely unverified sources.

You got a point. In fact this is like the third or fourth time that Naughty dog has come around and been like "look at us STANDING FOR EQUALITY!!! " Makes one wonder if there just fluffing there feathers for the free publicity.lol

But I trust naughty dog and Ive always rooted for them. I remember back when you escapist hipsters were calling them misogynist because of uncharteds nathan drake. Now look at you? LICKING THERE BOOTS!!!!! lol

 

[rbstewart7263]

Everything comes with a point of reasonability. Unless you're going to argue there is literally no middle ground between ONLY testing white heterosexual males between the ages of 18-30 and ONLY testing 500 grandmothers, I think you know full well what I'm getting at here. And unless you're going to argue there is absolutely no potential for difference between how a male might react to something and how a female might, I think you also know full well there is a value in it.

And I think there is evidence of this that already exists. If 2K Games had tested male and female focus groups on the Bioshock Infinite cover, do you really think the females would have so unanimously preferred relegating Elizabeth to the back cover? Do you really think both males and females are equally enamored with playing as only a white 30-something male with brown hair and stubble?

I knew what you were getting at but I still don't think you're grasping that the difference of target audiences between focus tested white male gamers and the elderly is no more inadmissible than that of average female gamers. What appeals to male gamers in the video games they love just might never appeal to female gamers: Even if Isaac were actually a promiscuous young independent latino woman it still wouldn't change the fact you spend the majority of Dead Space without dialogue and covered head to toe in armor while blowing limbs off of things that should be dead. Changing the box art of Bioshock Infinite isn't going to change that it's still a story told from the perspective of a man about a woman in a game about ideals, prejudice, and shooting people in the face with their zappy hands. Female gamers might still not like that, and neither will their grandmothers, but that's not going to change the content of the game on any level besides the superficial.

Don't you think there's a paradox going on when it's very clear the goal of AAA games as of late has been to cast the widest net to get the most money, yet the net they're aiming for with demographics is actually very limited? Women are becoming a larger and larger portion of the market, and while men may still make up the majority they're going to have to learn to deal with us one way or another. If they haven't learned how to make a game that can't appeal to both at once (which shouldn't really be that hard, it's been done so many times now), then they'd better start figuring out how because we aren't going anywhere and the more they pretend we don't exist the more money they're losing out on.

I see only playtesting males as a self-perpetuating problem. You only playtest with males, so the changes you make are geared toward male sensibilities and are completely unchecked by any other opinions, which limits the game's appeal even more. If you've got a specific demographic in mind then fine, but AAA publishers want big sales, and systematically shutting out 30-40% of the gaming population is only shooting themselves in the foot.

AAA Publishers have a lot of problems but they're only pandering towards a certain demographic because they continue to shell out money year after year for their games, regardless of the quality of the content. There's a lot of things wrong with that, none of it I think is specifically because there weren't more females in play-testing sessions. Play-testing with males isn't a problem to publishers because they keep buying their games, so how could they possibly think something is wrong? There's not a "Stagnation of ideas" line graph they can turn to let them know when they need to mix things up, all they see are the sales numbers (which have yet to truly fail - after all, is Bioshock infinite really going to tank because of it's box art?). They'd only be shooting themselves in the foot if there was a guarantee they could make more money while spending less by switching to making games aimed at female gamers (or both) and then refused to do it, while they continued to lose money while aiming at male gamers exclusively. But it's never that simple, so it hasn't happened yet.

I agree with the statement that if we want women in games lets ask them what they want and develop for a woman in mind from the beginning. Lets not be shocked or horrified if they dont want to play the same things we do but with boobs(gears of boobs call of boobs etc) I mean as long as were all happy and treated with respect thats all that counts.

I know there will be those that will say "well women like to play more this than this kind of genre so there must be alot of sexism in that genre" 5 years from now but whatever.

So that 47% percent of women in games what do they play more of on average?

 

[astrav1]

Hopefully they won't fuck this game up like they did with Uncharted 3. That was an unfortunate game.

 

[UberPubert]

So that 47% percent of women in games what do they play more of on average?

If I had to guess it'd mostly be RPGs and other more socially oriented games. I don't think it has as much to do with malleable protagonists having a changeable sex as people say, just that the gameplay (more dialogue heavy, interesting story, not that much of a focus on combat) is universally more appealing; stuff like Skyrim and even Mass Effect (which I also like).

 

[rbstewart7263]

So that 47% percent of women in games what do they play more of on average?

If I had to guess it'd mostly be RPGs. I don't think it has as much to do with malleable protagonists having a changeable sex as people say, just that the gameplay (more dialogue heavy, interesting story, not that much of a focus on combat) is universally more appealing; stuff like Skyrim and even Mass Effect (which I also like).

Id agree as legend of zelda is also a common pick amongst the womenz. Id say that immersion into another world is probably the main factor over testing your skills which is what would appeal to your "common" man.(ie: your twitch shot in cod etc)

 

[Ulquiorra4sama]

My love for Naughty Dog only continues to grow.

Shine on, you crazy hounds.