Diablo III Is Broken

[Lord_Gremlin]

You have to understand: Blizzard=Activision. All they want is to milk you for money like a dumb cow you are.

 

[Atmos Duality]

What is the measure of hundreds of hours of play if it's just beating your head against an invisible wall and you're not actually enjoying yourself?

EDIT:
(Theoretically) Grind may appeal more to those who aren't aware of (or refuse to acknowledge) the concept of grind yet. Or children who are (by nature) curious and industrious.
(if that is true, then it's no surprise how Pokemon has persisted to this day)

Cannot even begin to imagine how much of my time was spent farming for exp and random drops in some of the older games I played...including Diablo 2 (which just doesn't quite hold the same appeal as it used to)

Personally, there are games I've put hundreds of hours into. In total, some of the early final fantasy titles, a handful of fighting games, and both The Matrix Online and Lord of the Rings Online, yet I wouldn't call the majority of the time spent with any of them grinding or just playing for playing's sake (though grinding is an option in all of them).

Aye. A great number of RPGs (especially older RPGs) have long play times because of their grind factor.

At some point, I realized that the RPGs that have aged the best are those that allow for the player to be creative in finding solutions. Where the player's skill in testing different setups pay off more than their willingness to just grind out a few more levels to brute-force their way through.

It's why I keep going back to play Chrono Trigger (& Chrono Cross), Suikoden 2, Final Fantasy 4-7 (and FFT). The sheer number of clever "outs" in several of those games continue to surprise me.

That's where the matter of "choice" became important to me, and I've applied it to every game I've played since. Grind as an option is fine. But mandatory grind is simply indefensible as it will ruin otherwise good gameplay.

The only major aberration in this is Terraria.

Last year, I sunk an unhealthy 400+ hours into Terraria.
Why? Because everything I can do in that game, I enjoy doing. Exploring. Building. The world is largely randomized, and there is a sense of loose progress to it all as you look for new materials and fight new monsters.

Though I reached a point where I had to stop and ask "Is this grind? Am I spending hours upon hours grabbing stone blocks so I can just convert them later?"

And the answer is kind of strange because the "grind" isn't just a coefficient of existing content (set pieces), but a byproduct of the exploratory/building nature of the game. It's strange.

I stopped playing so I could focus on my schoolwork, and partly so I wouldn't completely burn out on it (didn't help that Redigit just stopped supporting the game entirely).

I suppose it's maybe just a play style I've never really found any enjoyment in. As soon as I reach a point with a game where I see making progress or reaching the next enjoyable point as a grind, I know it's time to turn the game off.

Agreed. I will only add that it seems to become more true the older I get.
And heaven help me if I ever have children.

 

[Twilight_guy]

I find it very hard to give a crap about this issue. It's not because its not a serious issue, the problem of reward vs. effort, especially in late game when the reward and effort get more spaced out, and refining your Skinner Box is an important issue. It's because by the time you've beaten the game, twice to get into hell difficulty where things actually get to be a hard slog, Blizzard has already accomplish more with D3 then most games. This is high level whine, stuff that bothers people that get deep into the game. The casual gamer would beat the game maybe once, with a class or two and then move on, the high level guys play D3 for several hundred hours and complain that its not fun. Most games would cease being fun after 20 hours and then maybe the player could replay them later. D3 hooks players for far longer without having them want to reset and start over. This kind of complaint bothers me because its basically your most dedicated fans spewing bile all over the company they love and hate at the same time. It just such a weird relationship and it's depressing. Blizzard failed to refine there Skinner Box to the best level, despite, this obviously being a working experiment since D3 is different from D2 and there same formulas need adjustment, and even of other solid elements in play, many are willing to honestly call this a terrible game, and these are Blizzard's biggest fans and most dedicated players of D3.

Ah well. Dungeon crawlers and loot based games are always struck me doomed to peter out, not because there bad but because the formula is inherently flawed. The only reason you play is to get better loot but as you play more the time better better loot gets further and further apart as the quality of your items gets nearer and nearer the top. Eventually that gap of time will be so big that players will get bored with what is now grind and quit. You can't make a sustainable system because your sliding scale can't go to infinity. Your reason for playing is eventually snuffed out by your own efforts. If that is the only reason you're playing, and in D3 after about one play through you've seen everything and all that remains is the loot, then the game formula is doomed to failure. It might be sustainable if players play for 20 hours, 30 hours, 50 hours but the devote fans are playing for hundred of hours and note that the broken formula is broken, then blaming Blizzard. I think the issue that needs to be discussed is how to make this formula less doomed to failure rather then asking Blizzard to change its game, which is broken and unfixable at the moment.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I acknowledged that you attempted to make a point. I also acknowledged that you failed miserably. No need to be a sore loser.

Nope.

Nice rebuttal, there's your absolute lack of intelligence kicking in.

I'm sorry but you didn't actually make any points so I couldn't address them.

Acknowledgement this is not. And you still haven't even begun to address them.

Well they still aren't showing up.

I was also stating that the drop rates for loot aren't different between Diablo 2 and 3. So another attempt, on your part, to make a point failed. You've got an excellent record there.

Nope again, on two counts. First, wrong, you weren't stating that the drop rates for loot in D2 and D3 are the same. This is what you were stating.

I've never had to access the auction house, but I get excellent loot, your attempt at a point is therefore invalid.

This contains very little factual value, and there's very little I can deduce from this simply because of the fact that we're talking about probabilities. You may have been lucky or you may be simply lying. What you point out now is actually something that can be addressed in its truth value, and here's where you're wrong again [http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/44096/_1340960757.jpg]. In the link is a picture of a Blizzard representative stating directly that yes, the auction house is a factor in how items are dropped.

And I'm glad you mentioned D2 specifically, because this is where you can check out the unique item list [http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/normal/uswords.shtml] of D2 and compare it against the unique item list for D3 [http://d3db.com/item?c=_sword&match=1&quality=0,0,0,0,1] and see, for instance, why the vast, vast majority of legendaries dropped in D3 end up being complete garbage. The randomness in rare and magic items is cranked up too, but it's a little bit harder to see given that those were random in D2 as well. Let's just say you weren't getting level 54 loot that was weaker than level 17 loot.

Wait... are you arguing for my point? Because here you're pointing out that going to the RMAH is pointless because the loot is inferior anyways... I realize you've lost the argument, but stay on your own damn side at least.

This argument that the drop tables were the same between the games on any level other than the fact that they're random is a completely absurd and counterfactual.

However; I guess I should congratulate you on beating cancer, your ongoing struggle with ADD, and the courage it takes to come to a battle of wits completely unarmed.

I don't know about wits, but at least I come with facts on my side.

Um your facts don't support your side of the argument though. I don't need any help, especially from you.

Once again, if you don't like the auction house, DON'T USE IT. There's no one with a gun to your head forcing you to open the RMAH. So don't. You can enjoy the game without it. It's the always online DRM and lag you should be complaining about.

You seem to fail to realise that what I've been talking about barely has to do with actually using the AH. For the third time, I'm pointing out that the existence of it has effects on the gameplay whether you actually use it or not.

Actually what we've been talking about is how some people (you and the OP) feel it is absolutely necessary to use the auction house and the game cannot be enjoyed without it which is completely false. I know you've been waffling through this response, but if you want give up and talk about other points, this isn't the right thread for you anymore.

But even if I were talking about what you're trying to address, there is no need for a gun to be held to anyone's head for them to realise that hey, using the AH is immensely, dozens of times more efficient than trying your luck at the RNG machine ad infinitum. Which is a problem on another level, that being that Diablo 3 gives players exactly zero control on what items end up dropping. And on a yet another, deeper level, seeing that a character's power is defined almost completely by items, as opposed to D2 and skill levels. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Okay you posted links here stating that the items in the RMAH are worthless compared to the items of D2 so... why buy them? Once again, thanks for providing me with all the ammunition I need against you, but it was completely unnecessary.

Honestly. There was never a way to win this argument. D3 has plenty of actual flaws without choosing the stupidest and least defensible one to pick on. Why don't you choose an argument you can win? Like saying that because it wasn't available on xbox or ps3 you have to buy a pc? It's also a dumb argument but you might have a better chance there.

 

[Nimzabaat]

Yeah whining and complaining about an option that you can completely ignore doesn't seem productive. It's not like the ME3 ending that you HAD to experience if you wanted to complete the game. The bottom line is that if you have a problem with the RMAH, it's all on you. As a player you decided to click that button. You decided to use that feature. Grow up and take some responsibility for a change.

I had a feature in D3 that I really disliked. It was having to put up with general chat. So I disabled general chat. Problem solved. I didn't write a huge post about it, because I had the power to ignore it and I used that power. I have the power to ignore the RMAH, so I do.

Though I do admit, this forum has given me a lot of ideas on how to exploit stupid people who think that just because something exists, they have to use it. Great ideas indeed... (maniacal laugh)

 

[Charli]

Had fun the first 2 weeks. I suppose that's good enough for a freebie that was paid for with my continued WoW subscription.

But I honestly thought nothing could get as grindy as farming gold on WoW.

I wwaaaass wroooooooong.


So now I'm happily fishing/digging/herbing my way through Azaroth knowing that the pay off is not quite as awful as kicking Inferno to bloody pieces of mulch for hours with no adequate results.

If I wanted 'Grind gold/gear - THE GAME' I'll just stop raiding/pvping/having fun in MMO's...
And before Diablo 2 purists flood me with 'that's the entire point' this has been argued to end on MMO champion, go there. That argument is moot.

 

[geizr]

My basic problem with D3 is that it kicks your teeth in, but doesn't give you a reason to go through that sort of punishment. The game doesn't give you a reason to actually do anything in it. There's nothing to look forward to. Sure, there are rare spawn monsters, events, and dungeon areas, but there's nothing that you get out of doing them other than to say that you did them. You don't even always get an achievement for it (not that I'm a big achievement hunter).

Not only is the random loot mostly useless, it's often nonsensical. Very often, I've seen items drops that are specific to one class but have abilities and stats that are used by another class that can't even use that particular type of item (belts and weapons are usually the worst for this). Further, the random loot has a ridiculously large downward variance such you can be in Act 2, Inferno and be getting drops that are more appropriate to Act 3/4, Nightmare or Act 1/2, Hell. You're out there getting your shit pushed-in with a telephone pole by some of these elites, and you're handed a drop that's more appropriate to a character at level 52, instead a level 60 working his way through Inferno. Even worse, the item is still not that useful even to the level 52, and may have the non-sense problem that it's specced for a class that can't even use the item.

Once you go through that enough times, you just no longer feel any sense of reward at all for anything. You get to the point you half-way don't even look at the drops, not even the rare yellow drops. You just identify them, head to the vendor, and blindly click the mouse on every item in your inventory.

Also, if you really want to talk about the drop in players, the real thing to understand is that the most severe drop-off occurred at a very specific point in the game's life, the release of patch 1.0.3. The changes that occurred in the game after 1.0.3 just made the game completely pointless. Immediately after the release of that patch, the number of public games went from 20k at peak to just under 2k at peak, and has trickled downward since (last I saw, we were at just a little over 900 at peak). Nowadays, most people just pop on for a few minutes to check the AH for a deal and then log off. They don't even bother to play the game.

Yes, D3 is a short-term financial success because so many of us were stupid enough to buy into it. However, it is difficult for me to shake the feeling that Blizzard may have traded away long-term corporate viability for this short-term gain, because I've read a number of voices expressing that they have little to no interest in buy anymore games from Blizzard, and they are certainly not interested in any potential expansion for D3. Of course, only time will tell on that. We all know gamers aren't very good at sticking to their guns when you dangle a new game in front of them.

 

[Mike Kayatta]

Yeah whining and complaining about an option that you can completely ignore doesn't seem productive. It's not like the ME3 ending that you HAD to experience if you wanted to complete the game. The bottom line is that if you have a problem with the RMAH, it's all on you. As a player you decided to click that button. You decided to use that feature. Grow up and take some responsibility for a change.

"The Auction House isn't simply an add-on, it's literally a game changer. Because players have full access to hundreds of thousands of items they'd statistically never interact with during natural play, enemies in the game have to accommodate by providing a challenge equivalent to superior gear. And it's not just about item level; it's about options. Stacking certain stats, and designing your gear set with an encompassing strategy (as opposed to the "this is the best helmet I've found, these are the best boots"-type scavenging otherwise required) is a colossal boon to any aspiring Nephalem. In fact, the advantage is so substantial that the game's difficulty is adjusted to it by necessity, thereby reinforcing, if not demanding, the Auction House's use to remain competitive against the A.I."

So, to sum this up for you, the point is that the Auction House (nowhere does this mention the RMAH) can not be ignored. It's essentially required to even attempt a pass through Inferno (and realistically speaking, Nightmare). Saying that "choosing to click that button" is somehow the fault of the player is the same as telling someone playing ME3 that they merely chose to use cover, so if they don't like how it works, then they should just stand out in the open mid-firefight instead.

And, as far as me growing up and taking responsibility "for a change," do we ... know each other? Or are you referring to a similar post you skimmed and took issue with?

 

[LazyAza]

Yep Blizzard basically broke the fundamental core of what makes a loot based rpg satisfying to begin with. By the time anyone gets to inferno the game goes from "oh boy I hope I get something cool" to "ah crap I can't progress at all until I upgrade... guess I better grind for gold for several hours... yay"

So it's not surprising at all most people have eventually just said fuck this and left the game. I eventually did too after getting to the end of Act 2 on inferno (after many expensive upgrades) and just being sick and tired of dying not because my skills were lacking or my gear wasn't amazing but because the game was designed to make every single new encounter so brutally unfair that the only way to succeed was to go grind some more and hope to be able to afford even better gear that got increasingly rarer.

I do hope Blizzard realizes their mistake in the inevitable expansion pack because if they don't I really can't see myself returning to the game ever again.

 

[shellshock3d]

All of you are complete whiners. (Also if you've played 200 hours already that's a whole lot, over 2 hours on average per day.) I love the game. I didn't buy it when it first came out because I didn't have the money, but I played my boyfriend's copy for a bit and then decided it was worth it and bought the game myself. We play together and are halfway through hell difficulty on our characters. I personally only used the auction house once to see what it was like and to buy the dye I wanted and have never used it since. I don't feel the need to. Why should you feel the need to visit the auction house? If you get to inferno and are constantly dying, then you need to grind some more. I love the story and the characters. I love everything about it. Maybe I like it because I never played Diablo II and you all are just butthurt because it doesn't have the stuff you liked but I like it and I'm going to continue playing it and yeah while I may quit after I level up a few characters, it's one of those games I can come back to after a few months and keep playing.

 

[Nimzabaat]

Yeah whining and complaining about an option that you can completely ignore doesn't seem productive. It's not like the ME3 ending that you HAD to experience if you wanted to complete the game. The bottom line is that if you have a problem with the RMAH, it's all on you. As a player you decided to click that button. You decided to use that feature. Grow up and take some responsibility for a change.

"The Auction House isn't simply an add-on, it's literally a game changer. Because players have full access to hundreds of thousands of items they'd statistically never interact with during natural play, enemies in the game have to accommodate by providing a challenge equivalent to superior gear. And it's not just about item level; it's about options. Stacking certain stats, and designing your gear set with an encompassing strategy (as opposed to the "this is the best helmet I've found, these are the best boots"-type scavenging otherwise required) is a colossal boon to any aspiring Nephalem. In fact, the advantage is so substantial that the game's difficulty is adjusted to it by necessity, thereby reinforcing, if not demanding, the Auction House's use to remain competitive against the A.I."

So, to sum this up for you, the point is that the Auction House (nowhere does this mention the RMAH) can not be ignored. It's essentially required to even attempt a pass through Inferno (and realistically speaking, Nightmare). Saying that "choosing to click that button" is somehow the fault of the player is the same as telling someone playing ME3 that they merely chose to use cover, so if they don't like how it works, then they should just stand out in the open mid-firefight instead.

And, as far as me growing up and taking responsibility "for a change," do we ... know each other? Or are you referring to a similar post you skimmed and took issue with?

No, sorry Mike, that wasn't intended as a personal attack on you or anything. I've just been arguing this same point with someone else who wasn't able to defend their point of view effectively or maturely. That individual even made a couple of great arguments about how items dropped in the game are often better than what people buy on the Auction House.

I do stand beside the fact that you can play the entire game without ever opening the Auction House (real money or otherwise). I played the hell (no pun intended) out of Diablo 2 with the expansion without ever buying an item online. I intend to do the same with D3. Your post is slamming an option that can be ignored. Now it may not be easily ignored but it's still up to the player.

I do like the comment about ME3, because a lot of the time in ME3 I was "choosing" to run, while my Shepard was "choosing" to take cover behind an invisible pixel and get shot in the back

 

[Atmos Duality]

Yeah whining and complaining about an option that you can completely ignore doesn't seem productive. It's not like the ME3 ending that you HAD to experience if you wanted to complete the game. The bottom line is that if you have a problem with the RMAH, it's all on you. As a player you decided to click that button. You decided to use that feature. Grow up and take some responsibility for a change.

So, "responsible" now means "Spend hundreds of hours grinding for loot in a video game".
Gotcha.

Pardon me for being a tad confused here, but that statement in the context I'm reading it just sounds hilarious.

 

[Nimzabaat]

Yeah whining and complaining about an option that you can completely ignore doesn't seem productive. It's not like the ME3 ending that you HAD to experience if you wanted to complete the game. The bottom line is that if you have a problem with the RMAH, it's all on you. As a player you decided to click that button. You decided to use that feature. Grow up and take some responsibility for a change.

So, "responsible" now means "Spend hundreds of hours grinding for loot in a video game".
Gotcha.

Pardon me for being a tad confused here, but that statement in the context I'm reading it just sounds hilarious.

You mean that Diablo 3 turned out just like Diablo 2? Yes, that literally drives me insane with laughter.

So you think that being responsible is spending real money on a virtual item that may be acquired in a loot drop from the next creature you kill or chest you open? As opposed to playing the game and showing a little bit of patience? You'd rather pay a couple of hundred dollars (if some of those posters are accurate) to get a virtual item that will be forgotten when Diablo 4 or (in my case) Borderlands 2 comes out? I know, I know, when I say it like that it just sounds stupid...

 

[Atmos Duality]

You mean that Diablo 3 turned out just like Diablo 2? Yes, that literally drives me insane with laughter.

Eh...it's not quite as bad as Diablo 2.
I could complete pre-1.10 D2 with mediocre/shitty items as most characters by myself.

(then Blizzard had to be dicks and make Runewords the End-All-Be-All equipment. Either that or you'd get stuck in Chaos Sanctuary dealing with fun-tastic immunities)

If nothing else, I could fire up a LAN game with my dad or sis and rock Hell Mode no-questions-asked.

So you think that being responsible is spending real money on a virtual item that may be acquired in a loot drop from the next creature you kill or chest you open? As opposed to playing the game and showing a little bit of patience? You'd rather pay a couple of hundred dollars (if some of those posters are accurate) to get a virtual item that will be forgotten when Diablo 4 or (in my case) Borderlands 2 comes out? I know, I know, when I say it like that it just sounds stupid...

Oh it IS stupid. I've been against cash-for-digital-items since it became an option.
I completely agree with that.

What you call "patience", well, I say that after spending 200 hours playing a game and being unable to complete it solely because of low drops rates...that's insane.

Insanely bad game design.
It's artificial difficulty, and it sucks.

(Incidentally, I too, am looking forward to Borderlands 2. And Torchlight 2)

 

[Artemis923]

I did 12 years of Diablo 2. It's one of my favorite games of all time; it took everything I loved about the first one and expanded and improved it.

D3 comes out...and I hate it. I mark it as one of the biggest disappointments in my gaming experience, and the end of my loyalty to Blizzard.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

Hearing this does not surprise me, my brother stopped playing it the moment he finished it and told me he prob won't play it again for ages.

This is why when I needed a Diablo type game, I installed Titan Quest and its expansion. Because when I played D3 on my brothers computer for a while, I got bored and it didn't feel like Diablo to me.

I am having fun with Titan quest, picked it up cheap at a local store, plus I love Greek Mythology.

 

[GAunderrated]

I did 12 years of Diablo 2. It's one of my favorite games of all time; it took everything I loved about the first one and expanded and improved it.

D3 comes out...and I hate it. I mark it as one of the biggest disappointments in my gaming experience, and the end of my loyalty to Blizzard.

This is my exact feelings and it's really sad. It even got me to take my pre-order off HoS. Even if they released warcraft 4 (been dying for a release) I don't think I will ever trust blizzard the same way again.

 

[IDS3Remix]

Can't wait for Diablo 4 to hit shelves, or the Expansion to Diablo 3. Regardless of how hard people complained, and how fast it got dropped, it will sell in droves, because gamers never seem to learn, or care when a publisher/developer gets away with shit like this. I don't see ActiBliz caring either. Isn't Diablo 3 still the best sold PC game in recent years, if not ever? They already made their money, they don't have a reason to support it at this point, unless they're losing money from it... If that happens, QUICK FIX!

 

[VonBrewskie]

In the end Diablo 3 is simply one thing, a terrible failure from all angles. The world just needed to understand that, which took time. When Diablo 3 appeared everyone was like... nice.
Now, some months later, it's not much less a failure than Bioshock 2 or Crysis 2.

I personally couldn't stand literally anything from this game anymore already during the levelling of my second character.
Don't feel like going into detail anymore, I'm just waiting for the game I waited for from the start, Torchlight 2.

Yeah. Here's hoping TL2 comes through with the win. I played D3 obsessively for a couple of months. Got three characters to Act 2 Inferno. Then I just...got bored man. There was little to no incentive to play Inferno with my friends, and the invincible mobs I often ran into made the fun factor drop dramatically. The smoothness of the game was lost, and I just lost interest and started playing other stuff.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Don't worry. Torchlight 2 and Borderlands 2 will fill the hole this game has left you guys with.

At first I was really excited for Diablo 3, then I was on the fence when I heard about the always online, then I completely lost interest when I heard about the auction house.