Dissing Mass Effect Andromeda because it has diversity and equality

[Artorius]

For me, the tipping point was they made Asari have preffered pronouns.

For gods sake this is asari we are talking about.

if you Take in the lore of both ME 1 and ME2 you know that asari never really gave a toss about what they are called in the relationship. or how they are called.

 

[Imre Csete]

or you can have Iron Bull, a member of a race and ideology that has people's place in the world and jobs they are allowed to have decided at birth based on what jiggly bits they've got, start telling you how close-minded you are and your character has no choice but to take it.

Bull's PSA about trans people came at me out of left field, it was so hillarious. It was like getting dogpiled on by BioWare forum snowflakes just ingame.

How dare you think Krem is a badass warrior woman in full plate armor, you bigot. He's clearly trans, shame on you!

100% organic storytelling.

 

[SpaceDoctor]

To me, it's offensive because it isn't very realistic. I'm not comfortable talking about my legal name, or immediately bringing up that I'm transgender. When I meet new people, I usually don't bring it up right away -- or at all. And I don't know a single other transgender person who is immediately open to talking about their past, or even mentioning their old/legal name.

It just comes off as really ignorant. I appreciate the attempt, but I think it could do more harm than good, because it's sending a message that this is an OK conversation topic to have with a trans person when you first meet them. It's not.

Ok, I'm making wild assumptions here AND I'm going off-topic, but I wanted to ask: if you are confident about who you are, why would it not be an ok conversation topic?

I'm talking out of ignorance here, but I assume if you are confident about who you are it doesn't bother you if people ask you about it.

A lot of reasons. Most of us see our pasts as "dead," hence the whole "dead name" concept. Opening up about who we were pre-transition can feel really stressful or traumatic unless we explicitly trust the other person, i.e. they're also trans, they're a lover, etc. Because dead names are often used to invalidate us -- i.e. "Oh you changed your name to Joan? But you were really John before?" -- it's just really painful to bring up or talk about.

There's also the whole anti-trans discrimination thing. I live in Brooklyn, and even there, it's very common to get harassed by strangers if you get "clocked" as transgender. I know one friend who was beaten up for being trans, and it's totally common to lose a job because of it. Safety is a huge part of that, which makes outing yourself painful as well. This is a layered issue that's complicated.

I don't see that level of trust between Ryder and Hainley, they just seem like two people on the same crew. And because that layer of trust is missing, why should a trans person divulge their identity to Ryder? What if Ryder started abusing her authority? As a trans person, it makes no sense.

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

Honestly that's probably the least offensive example I've ever seen. If I had to point to a problem, I'd say it was that given its a background npc the writer was probably limited to 4-5 lines to get their point across which led to a rushed example.

The bluntness of it is kinda undercut by EVERY npc you meet dumping their reason for coming to Andromeda on you at the drop of a hat.

The game lays on the "new beginnings" theme pretty thick

To me, it's offensive because it isn't very realistic. I'm not comfortable talking about my legal name, or immediately bringing up that I'm transgender. When I meet new people, I usually don't bring it up right away -- or at all. And I don't know a single other transgender person who is immediately open to talking about their past, or even mentioning their old/legal name.

It just comes off as really ignorant. I appreciate the attempt, but I think it could do more harm than good, because it's sending a message that this is an OK conversation topic to have with a trans person when you first meet them. It's not.

It's a sacrifice of the medium and the fact that it's a world npc with like 5 lines. It's bad, but considering the other trans representation we've had lately, Bailey is down right acceptable. Is she perfect? No. Not even close. But I'd hardly call her problematic or harmful.

Frankly, trans representation is a tight rope walk anyways. Do you make it obvious and risk coming off as ignorant? Or do you make realistic, but so subtle that you wouldn't realize it unless you read through 6 pages of the codex and thus sacrifice the "representative" part of it? Representation needs to be visible, but for a group where the ideal end goal is to NOT be visible how would you talk about it?

Because as a bi dude who likes male gay characters to mack on in videogames, I've heard "the best gay representation is a gay dude who doesn't look gay act gay talk about being gay or date dudes" way too fucking often to try and argue that representation needs to be invisible for it to be "good".

I don't think explicitly outing yourself has to be done simply because of the medium. I think writers need to think outside the box. When transgender people themselves are upset about this character, that means something else should be done.

I think BioWare should read more trans fiction -- Nevada, Safe Girl to Love, books like that -- and think about how trans characters are written there and why. There's ways to leave subtle hints without being too specific. One example was to leave a note in a codex or bio file, and I like that idea a lot.

Representation should be visible, but it doesn't have to be done explicitly. Tracer in Overwatch is great because she's queer coded, and I think BioWare could learn from that.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

I wonder if Ryder could respond to that with "That's nice, but you didn't answer my question."

Joking aside, it's just plain bad writing. The kind where NPC just dumps exposition on you, made more awkward by the information being quite personal. Could be fixed up with adding a single line like "Tell me more about yourself. I want to know my crewmembers better" or something similar, though.

It gets a bit worse when you think more about that exchange. So the implication is, finding a new place to live after the transition was a big deal for Hainly. Big enough that she decided to fly to another galaxy. And the first line you hear from her after taking such bold step? "Hi, they used to call me Stephan."

I know writing in video games is not good overall, but... oof.

 

[MHR]

Story is a more subjective concept, especially from my perspective as I maintain ME1 was irrefutably the best written out of all. Things have gone down hill, story wise, since Drew Karpyshyn left

I wouldn't say it's the best myself, amazing introduction to the universe and absolutely amazing for the designs of the aliens being more than rubber ears and eyeshadow, but story-wise, sorta meh with the exception of a few key moments(Akuze background adding so much to some quests, Virmire if you bothered to learn about Ash and Kaiden, really made my second playthrough difficult at that point, and getting Saren to kill himself). However I will agree that Karpyshian leaving largely spelled the end of Mass Effect for me.

I maintain that story-wise, ME2 is the best simply because it was very much a character-focused story and I'm a sucker for suicide mission plots. ME2's launch trailer if I'm remembering right is still the most viewed of EA's main channel and Mass Effect's official.

Yeah, it's certainly a matter of preference.

It's also entirely possible that my attitude towards the story of ME2 was hindered by my expectations going in.

2's main plot being a steaming pile may've had something to do with that also.

2's plot didn't have a world-ending disastrous threat threatening to unravel reality as we know it, but at least it wasn't ME:3. And I'm not talking about that ending. Yeah, worlds are being actively fucked, billions are dying, but that's still all anyone can talk about. Walk around any hubtown, and everyone has a sob story about how they're sad their worlds are ending. Every day people on Earth are dying by the millions, and yet, you're off taking an advanced military warship to fart around random star systems scanning for some stranger's special luggage they lost because they're sad without it.

The collectors seemed like a sidequest threat that spanned over an entire game, but at least it wasn't as tiresome as 110% doomtime ME3.

 

[mavkiel]

It really is sad how terrible the characters look. I'd go out on a limb and say perhaps 1/10th of the human characters look ok. Most look like they fell off the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

 

[CaitSeith]

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

I wonder if Ryder could respond to that with "That's nice, but you didn't answer my question."

Joking aside, it's just plain bad writing. The kind where NPC just dumps exposition on you, made more awkward by the information being quite personal. Could be fixed up with adding a single line like "Tell me more about yourself. I want to know my crewmembers better" or something similar, though.

It gets a bit worse when you think more about that exchange. So the implication is, finding a new place to live after the transition was a big deal for Hainly. Big enough that she decided to fly to another galaxy. And the first line you hear from her after taking such bold step? "Hi, they used to call me Stephan."

I know writing in video games is not good overall, but... oof.

And what it hurts more is that the series has done NPC deeply personal background reveals much better in the past games. Wrex didn't go "I became a mercenary because I killed my dad / Clan Leader in self-defense" on the first conversation. Even Steve Cortez was better handled than this.

 

[Terminal Blue]

if you Take in the lore of both ME 1 and ME2 you know that asari never really gave a toss about what they are called in the relationship. or how they are called.

"Anthropocentric bag of dicks".

 

[mxfox408]

Diversity is good, but not when its rammed down peoples throats to a point of being racist. Mass Effect Andromeda has crippled its character editor and made it very difficult to even create an attractive female. It would seem they are sexist, since they also happen to change the model character who was pretty attractive to something not even resembling her, while leaving the male counterpart intact with the model he was created after. So are they sexist against attractive women? possibly. Would it be correct to make that assumption? I think it should be asked. Also Bioware has quite a few SJW type activists currently under their employment, and the anti white Gameplay designer is just one of them.

Original vs. Final

if this does not question the stance Bioware is taking here, then I don't know what will.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So are they sexist against attractive women?

The idea that the default Sara Ryder is some ghastly mutant too ugly to be endured is honestly kind of depressing. It's a fairly strong argument for the "preteen boys are still gaming's loudest demographic" stance.

On the trans character...she's absolutely shoehorned in, but to the same extent all the tertiary characters are. That's basically the writing for all of them. Tiny exposition dumps. What makes it stand out isn't the painful exposition, which is practically rote (and, in fairness to the game, pretty standard for the genre as a whole outside of the strongest outliers). It's the fact that the character's exposition includes "I'm trans". I believe it's literally the only transgender character in the game, and naturally you'd never know without them saying "I AM TRANS", so you have this awkward dump. If there was one black character in the game and he answered a question with "BTW I AM BLACK" it would feel equally strange, but he'd never need to do that, because "being black" is visually evident and does not require exposition.

I'd say it was earnest but poorly implemented tokenism. Be nice if some creative writers found a way to get an interesting trans character into a game whose sole purpose for existing wasn't to say "HELLO I AM A TRANS PERSON AND I AM IN THIS GAME" before exiting stage left, but I suspect we'll be waiting a long time.

 

[mxfox408]

I quite liked a comment in this youtube video, I think it sums the whole situation up beautifully:
Don't you know, being PROGRESSIVE makes up for shitty animations, shitty voice acting, a shitty story, and shitty gameplay? If you don't like it, you're just intolerant.

This Dialog is shitty as hell "we are all going to be friends and Prosper right? you bet we are" wtf kind of shit is that? never heard a Krogen sound so fucken weenie in my life.

 

[Worgen]

I must spend too much time on One Angry Gamer(website owned and run by "GameJournoPros" whistleblower William Usher) when I can honestly say that I firmly believe that the people working on Andromeda were purely hired because of diversity quotas.

And it probably says something even worse about me when I can say sincerely that I believe that's the biggest reason Andromeda is going to be shit.

I'm so sure that it being the first game for an offshoot studio had nothing to do with that. I mean thats why cod ghost is seen as the worst cod game, it was too diverse. >.>

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

I wonder if Ryder could respond to that with "That's nice, but you didn't answer my question."

Joking aside, it's just plain bad writing. The kind where NPC just dumps exposition on you, made more awkward by the information being quite personal. Could be fixed up with adding a single line like "Tell me more about yourself. I want to know my crewmembers better" or something similar, though.

It gets a bit worse when you think more about that exchange. So the implication is, finding a new place to live after the transition was a big deal for Hainly. Big enough that she decided to fly to another galaxy. And the first line you hear from her after taking such bold step? "Hi, they used to call me Stephan."

I know writing in video games is not good overall, but... oof.

I mean, sure, but that's also the style of exposition given by literally every other world NPC.

 

[Redryhno]

So are they sexist against attractive women?

The idea that the default Sara Ryder is some ghastly mutant too ugly to be endured is honestly kind of depressing. It's a fairly strong argument for the "preteen boys are still gaming's loudest demographic" stance.

To be fair, if you seriously think there's nothing wrong with her face, proportions, or animations compared to M'Ryder or even her model, then I'm not sure I can trust you if you say the sky is blue. But she is a mutant of some sort, either she wandered in from Moe Neverland or someone fucked up hard. Not to mention, who gives a fuck if preteen boys are the loudest demographic? Everyone is a preteen boy in one way or another and last time I heard someone say they liked the uncanny valley, it was a fetish.

I mean, sure, but that's also the style of exposition given by literally every other world NPC.

Sure, but you've got conflicting signals. One is that every NPC does it, the other is that this specific NPC talked about not wanting people to remember Stephan and wanting a fresh start as who they really are before mouthing off that, surprise, they actually do want everyone to remember Stephan and wanting a fresh start is bullshit.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I mean, sure, but that's also the style of exposition given by literally every other world NPC.

Sure, but you've got conflicting signals. One is that every NPC does it, the other is that this specific NPC talked about not wanting people to remember Stephan and wanting a fresh start as who they really are before mouthing off that, surprise, they actually do want everyone to remember Stephan and wanting a fresh start is bullshit.

"Wanting a fresh start" and "never speaking of a thing again" aren't necessarily connected. I mean, if she'd left out the bit with her name, would you be complaining about this person mentioning her dead-end tube-rat job because she wanted to get a fresh start?

Because I've talked to people who've wanted a fresh start after ending a bad job or relationship, and yeah, they still talk about it. And, I mean, Ryder, Pathfinder who brings hope, hero of the Nexus, did ask...

Spoiler: That said...

That this is the extent of trans representation in the game and that it was marketed as a positive is sad. Like, if there were other trans characters running around with a bit more development, a random trans world NPC who's just like the rest of the world NPCs wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

To be fair, if you seriously think there's nothing wrong with her face, proportions, or animations compared to M'Ryder or even her model, then I'm not sure I can trust you if you say the sky is blue. But she is a mutant of some sort, either she wandered in from Moe Neverland or someone fucked up hard.

There's nothing wrong with her face, proportions or animations that haven't been duplicated across the entire Bioware library since they began making "cinematic" games.

I mean, IMAGINE a popular RPG with jank-ass animations...


And then we have Sara Ryder...

Oh my lord she's too hideous to be endured. I need to wipe the beard sweat from my fingers so I can pen an angry missive to Bioware. How can they forsake their male audience by foisting this beast on us?

Everyone is a preteen boy in one way or another

...

If you say so.

 

[Redryhno]

To be fair, if you seriously think there's nothing wrong with her face, proportions, or animations compared to M'Ryder or even her model, then I'm not sure I can trust you if you say the sky is blue. But she is a mutant of some sort, either she wandered in from Moe Neverland or someone fucked up hard.

There's nothing wrong with her face, proportions or animations that haven't been duplicated across the entire Bioware library since they began making "cinematic" games.

I mean, IMAGINE a popular RPG with jank-ass animations...


Oh my lord she's too hideous to be endured. I need to wipe the beard sweat from my fingers so I can pen an angry missive to Bioware. How can they forsake their male audience by foisting this beast on us?

Everyone is a preteen boy in one way or another

...

If you say so.

When did I ever say literally anything about the animations or expressions in ME2? Though I do love how you use a still image in comparison to the video when you're talking about janky animations, really gets the point across and doesn't in any way look silly.

Also, why in the everliving fuck is it always "EWW, STINKY NECKBEARDS CAN'T HANDLE LESS THAN PERFECT WOMEN" when it comes to complaints of a Bioware game anymore? I mean, it's not like people that liked Mass Effect were putting their hopes on the series actually delivering something worthwhile again after 3/4's of ME3's bullshit and were let down, once again, by a company that used to have some manner of pride in their work to not release something in this state. And again, I am sick and tired of having to repeat myself in this exact conversation, so I think I'll bold it and put it in big colorful letters this time around to maybe have it stick:

I NEVER SAID A DAMN THING ABOUT HER BEING EITHER HIDEOUS OR UGLY, SIMPLY THAT HER FACIAL PROPORTIONS ARE COMPLETELY OFF AND SHE LOOKS NOTHING LIKE HER REAL-LIFE MODEL WHEN COMPARED TO THE MALE RYDER.

There a chance we can have a conversation about the animations and the mo-cap in this game without immediately throwing a hissy fit and throwing tired insults that lost the last remaining specks of their luster at least 3 years back? Maybe we start from the weird perspective of the other side maybe being more than just a stereotype that only sees women as whatever the buzzword of the week is? Is it that much to ask?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

When did I ever say literally anything about the animations or expressions in ME2? Though I do love how you use a still image in comparison to the video when you're talking about janky animations, really gets the point across and doesn't in any way look silly.

I believe it was user redryhno who, exactly one post ago, chose to also ***** about "her face and proportions". And also notably restricted the complaints to this one character, rather than simply throwing a blanket over the game(s) and having a chuckle at the animations in all of them.

I NEVER SAID A DAMN THING ABOUT HER BEING EITHER HIDEOUS OR UGLY, SIMPLY THAT HER FACIAL PROPORTIONS ARE COMPLETELY OFF AND SHE LOOKS NOTHING LIKE HER REAL-LIFE MODEL WHEN COMPARED TO THE MALE RYDER.

I don't know why a character's resemblance to their model matters in the slightest. There's nothing really "off" about her proportions. She looks like a normal human being, save for those uncanny valley moments ALL the characters experience where poor/unfinished animations make them look like melting candlesticks.

There a chance we can have a conversation about the animations and the mo-cap in this game without immediately throwing a hissy fit and throwing tired insults that lost the last remaining specks of their luster at least 3 years back? Maybe we start from the weird perspective of the other side maybe being more than just a stereotype that only sees women as whatever the buzzword of the week is? Is it that much to ask?

For someone who wants the conversation to be elevated...

But she is a mutant of some sort, either she wandered in from Moe Neverland or someone fucked up hard.

...you should probably tone down your "amusing hyperbole". Otherwise I don't know where you want to set the bar.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

To be fair, if you seriously think there's nothing wrong with her face, proportions, or animations compared to M'Ryder or even her model, then I'm not sure I can trust you if you say the sky is blue. But she is a mutant of some sort, either she wandered in from Moe Neverland or someone fucked up hard.

There's nothing wrong with her face, proportions or animations that haven't been duplicated across the entire Bioware library since they began making "cinematic" games.

I mean, IMAGINE a popular RPG with jank-ass animations...


And then we have Sara Ryder...

Oh my lord she's too hideous to be endured. I need to wipe the beard sweat from my fingers so I can pen an angry missive to Bioware. How can they forsake their male audience by foisting this beast on us?

Everyone is a preteen boy in one way or another

...

If you say so.

A still image in place of animation. Here, let me help a bit.


Also, still doesn't change the fact that FemRyder still looks nothing like her model while MaleRyder does.

Also, one cringy scene compared to literal hours. What a comparison.