Dissing Mass Effect Andromeda because it has diversity and equality

[RaikuFA]

So, I've read about that shoehorned trans character in Andromeda. I'm a fervid SJW, but even I have to admit that was so badly shoehorned it could almost be offensive.

Human beings really have a way to turn everything, even the most positive things, into something that makes you pissed.

So what am I supposed to do? If I praise the inclusivity of ME:A, I also praise how badly and tokenistically it was done. If I complain about how badly it was done, it sends a message that developers shouldn't try progress and inclusivity.

Question, what maks you a SJW?

Also I think you should think "I love that a trans character was added in but did it have to feel so forced? I didn't feel any heart from it." I'm not you, I can't tell you how to think but I hope that helped.

 

[Nature Guardian]

[

Question, what maks you a SJW?

The fact I got called a SJW a lot on the internet.

So I just take my detractors by surprise by calling myself a SJW first. Really gives them no arguments.

Also I think you should think "I love that a trans character was added in but did it have to feel so forced? I didn't feel any heart from it." I'm not you, I can't tell you how to think but I hope that helped.

I mean, it just feels like you should complain because it's badly done, but if you complain about that you're just telling them not to try anymore.

Heck, I don't even personally care about adding trans characters. I just love the idea that everyone can find a character to relate to in a way; that nobody feels excluded.

 

[SpaceDoctor]

I mean, it just feels like you should complain because it's badly done, but if you complain about that you're just telling them not to try anymore.

Heck, I don't even personally care about adding trans characters. I just love the idea that everyone can find a character to relate to in a way; that nobody feels excluded.

I think "this is nice in theory, but bad in execution" is a pretty standard criticism that works well for this kind of thing. If a studio won't listen, or writers immediately take it personally, then they're probably doomed from the start.

 

[RaikuFA]

[

Question, what maks you a SJW?

The fact I got called a SJW a lot on the internet.

So I just take my detractors by surprise by calling myself a SJW first. Really gives them no arguments.

Also I think you should think "I love that a trans character was added in but did it have to feel so forced? I didn't feel any heart from it." I'm not you, I can't tell you how to think but I hope that helped.

I mean, it just feels like you should complain because it's badly done, but if you complain about that you're just telling them not to try anymore.

Heck, I don't even personally care about adding trans characters. I just love the idea that everyone can find a character to relate to in a way; that nobody feels excluded.

Not really. There's a reason constructive criticism exists. Going "lol it sucks" dosen't help. Going "it felt shallow, you could have improved it a lot more. Maybe by talking with some trans people to see how their families reacted, how they came to the realization they're actually a diffrent gender" is criticism they should listen to because it helps them down the road.

 

[Redryhno]

So, I've read about that shoehorned trans character in Andromeda. I'm a fervid SJW, but even I have to admit that was so badly shoehorned it could almost be offensive.

Human beings really have a way to turn everything, even the most positive things, into something that makes you pissed.

So what am I supposed to do? If I praise the inclusivity of ME:A, I also praise how badly and tokenistically it was done. If I complain about how badly it was done, it sends a message that developers shouldn't try progress and inclusivity.

Well, do you want more inclusive characters, or do you want it done right? If you just care about them being there, then praise it, personally I'll think you're just a poser like many are when it comes to this topic, but it's your right.

Or, you can make it perfectly clear WHY you don't like this and if it means less characters in the future, then

A) The writer and/or company were never interested in being inclusive in the first place, so win-win, you get less obviously shoehorned diversity points only in there to pretend they're interested in being inclusive, and others that don't particularly like it don't have to have it shoved in their face.

B) They improve and you get more than "My name is Shaunda and I used to have a dick but I don't anymore because I was able to leave and not have everyone remember my old name of Shawn" character introductions and less massive retcons of lore for a character to fit(personally this is my win). Again a win-win, you get what you want, the writer gets what you want, and it can be held up as the new standard of inclusive characters while not being obnoxious until the next standard can be reached and improved.

C) You get a writer/etc. meltdown calling you all manner of -isms, -phobic, etc. and you get ot have a good laugh because they obviously don't know what the fuck they're doing.

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

Honestly that's probably the least offensive example I've ever seen. If I had to point to a problem, I'd say it was that given its a background npc the writer was probably limited to 4-5 lines to get their point across which led to a rushed example.

The bluntness of it is kinda undercut by EVERY npc you meet dumping their reason for coming to Andromeda on you at the drop of a hat.

The game lays on the "new beginnings" theme pretty thick

Yeah, but if you're looking for a new beginning where nobody knows your name, why tell everyone you're trans? Sorta seems to get in the way of the plan of "I wanted a fresh start as the real me".

 

[wulf3n]

Story is a more subjective concept, especially from my perspective as I maintain ME1 was irrefutably the best written out of all. Things have gone down hill, story wise, since Drew Karpyshyn left

I wouldn't say it's the best myself, amazing introduction to the universe and absolutely amazing for the designs of the aliens being more than rubber ears and eyeshadow, but story-wise, sorta meh with the exception of a few key moments(Akuze background adding so much to some quests, Virmire if you bothered to learn about Ash and Kaiden, really made my second playthrough difficult at that point, and getting Saren to kill himself). However I will agree that Karpyshian leaving largely spelled the end of Mass Effect for me.

I maintain that story-wise, ME2 is the best simply because it was very much a character-focused story and I'm a sucker for suicide mission plots. ME2's launch trailer if I'm remembering right is still the most viewed of EA's main channel and Mass Effect's official.

Yeah, it's certainly a matter of preference.

It's also entirely possible that my attitude towards the story of ME2 was hindered by my expectations going in.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

The entire media regarding ME:A is a train wreck honestly. One the one hand, you've got humanoid scrotums who like to harass random game developers because they've assumed, based on no evidence, that person only at a company because of diversity quotas. On the other hand, you've got openly racist shitbags like Manveer Heir, and the spineless higher-ups at Bioware who don't reprimand him for his bullshit.
And all over a game that looks like a passable late 2000s cover shooter with wonky animations.

 

[SpaceDoctor]

Yeah, here's the original post by lonelytiefling: https://twitter.com/lonelytiefling/status/843808789858045952

Honestly that's probably the least offensive example I've ever seen. If I had to point to a problem, I'd say it was that given its a background npc the writer was probably limited to 4-5 lines to get their point across which led to a rushed example.

The bluntness of it is kinda undercut by EVERY npc you meet dumping their reason for coming to Andromeda on you at the drop of a hat.

The game lays on the "new beginnings" theme pretty thick

To me, it's offensive because it isn't very realistic. I'm not comfortable talking about my legal name, or immediately bringing up that I'm transgender. When I meet new people, I usually don't bring it up right away -- or at all. And I don't know a single other transgender person who is immediately open to talking about their past, or even mentioning their old/legal name.

It just comes off as really ignorant. I appreciate the attempt, but I think it could do more harm than good, because it's sending a message that this is an OK conversation topic to have with a trans person when you first meet them. It's not.

 

[burnout02urza]

I can't believe how incredibly ugly the game looks. I mean, it's not difficult to overlook graphics - normally - but this is a big-budget release. In fact, this is probably the AAA big-spender of the year.

And yet somehow, it looks worse than the original trilogy. The entire cast looks like they have Down's syndrome.

I'm really, really curious WHY this game looks so bad, or why they do that zombie shamble when walking. Like, Dragon Age's designs weren't amazing, but they only got really ugly in Inquisition. Is that even possible? How could the quality degrade that much over such a short period of time?

While we're at it, how does the cast manage to look so much worse than Zelda's or Nier: Automata's? I mean, Automata's 2B is a great (and sexy) design, while Zelda has that very clean, vaguely Ghibli-inspired design with almost Aztec-inspired lines.

I'm not sure why the ME:A cast looks like they were beat by the ugly stick. Either there was a catastrophic fuckup, or someone was deliberately fucking with us.

How is it possible that the Japanese are the only ones to design attractive-looking characters anymore? Most of the footage I've seen makes the cast resemble a roomful of children with special needs.

edit: While we're at it, diversity quotas are cancer. The person who thought up that idea should be castrated, so he can't breed.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

[

It's a sacrifice of the medium and the fact that it's a world npc with like 5 lines. It's bad, but considering the other trans representation we've had lately, Bailey is down right acceptable.

Are you talking about the utter lack of it? Cause the only trans representation I can think of all share the same issues as Bailey, such as that one character from the Baldur's gate expansion, and a character from the newer Batgirl comics.

I guess there's also that one show on Amazon video that had the old man from Arrested Development become Trans and Poison from Final Fight, but I honestly forgot that show even existed, and Poison is a well loved fan favorite.

 

[Nature Guardian]

To me, it's offensive because it isn't very realistic. I'm not comfortable talking about my legal name, or immediately bringing up that I'm transgender. When I meet new people, I usually don't bring it up right away -- or at all. And I don't know a single other transgender person who is immediately open to talking about their past, or even mentioning their old/legal name.

It just comes off as really ignorant. I appreciate the attempt, but I think it could do more harm than good, because it's sending a message that this is an OK conversation topic to have with a trans person when you first meet them. It's not.

Ok, I'm making wild assumptions here AND I'm going off-topic, but I wanted to ask: if you are confident about who you are, why would it not be an ok conversation topic?

I'm talking out of ignorance here, but I assume if you are confident about who you are it doesn't bother you if people ask you about it.

 

[Nature Guardian]

Well, do you want more inclusive characters, or do you want it done right? If you just care about them being there, then praise it, personally I'll think you're just a poser like many are when it comes to this topic, but it's your right.

Ok, I don't give a darn about transexual people because I'm not one and I even don't know one.

Yet I'm happy if they include transexual people in videogames and movies because I think all groups have a right of representation and inclusion.

By your logic, I am a poser. See, this kind of attitude drawns people AWAY from adding variety in representation. Because:

Or, you can make it perfectly clear WHY you don't like this and if it means less characters in the future, then

A) The writer and/or company were never interested in being inclusive in the first place, so win-win, you get less obviously shoehorned diversity points only in there to pretend they're interested in being inclusive, and others that don't particularly like it don't have to have it shoved in their face.

B) They improve and you get more than "My name is Shaunda and I used to have a dick but I don't anymore because I was able to leave and not have everyone remember my old name of Shawn" character introductions and less massive retcons of lore for a character to fit(personally this is my win). Again a win-win, you get what you want, the writer gets what you want, and it can be held up as the new standard of inclusive characters while not being obnoxious until the next standard can be reached and improved.

C) You get a writer/etc. meltdown calling you all manner of -isms, -phobic, etc. and you get ot have a good laugh because they obviously don't know what the fuck they're doing.

.....shoehorned diversity is still the first time we got diversity.

When was the last time a trans character was included in a big budget title without it feeling shoehorned? Oh right - NEVER.

I'd take a shoehorned character rather than ZERO character.

Yes, it's not enough. But it's the first step. There's always a first step.

And people complain about the first step, not realizing there will be more to come... unless they rant so much to stop the progress.

It's like insulting a baby who just learned to walk on two legs, because he can't run fast.

 

[Apl_J]

Manveer seems more like a edgy troll than a racist.

Big titties, model looks, and catsuits wouldn't make this game play or run better.

Facial animations were bad and algorithmic. That's not to say the algorithm method is inherently bad (I think Witcher did that too?), but its a major contributing factor. More so than any individual.

Diversity is good. Shoehorned diversity is, at the very least, an effort in the right direction even if it was done badly.

 

[sXeth]

.....shoehorned diversity is still the first time we got diversity.

When was the last time a trans character was included in a big budget title without it feeling shoehorned? Oh right - NEVER.

I'd take a shoehorned character rather than ZERO character.

Yes, it's not enough. But it's the first step. There's always a first step.

And people complain about the first step, not realizing there will be more to come... unless they rant so much to stop the progress.

It's like insulting a baby who just learned to walk on two legs, because he can't run fast.

I'd argue 1995 Crono Trigger probably did it better. (http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Flea). Granted, he's a villain (though that seems to be unrelated).

Watch Dogs 2 has a trans-character too. Marcus' old friend from high school is now a councilwoman and helps him out with tracking down the Scientology-expies hidden bunker. While it is a plot point (the Scientology guys tried to discredit her (presumably she's been opposing them as a politician) by leaking info about her surgeries.) Its not just blurted out as random backstory to a complete stranger. The outing doesn't seem to be her motivation either, as it was a reaction to her meddling with them.

 

[Redryhno]

Well, do you want more inclusive characters, or do you want it done right? If you just care about them being there, then praise it, personally I'll think you're just a poser like many are when it comes to this topic, but it's your right.

Ok, I don't give a darn about transexual people because I'm not one and I even don't know one.

Yet I'm happy if they include transexual people in videogames and movies because I think all groups have a right of representation and inclusion.

By your logic, I am a poser. See, this kind of attitude drawns people AWAY from adding variety in representation. Because:

Or, you can make it perfectly clear WHY you don't like this and if it means less characters in the future, then

A) The writer and/or company were never interested in being inclusive in the first place, so win-win, you get less obviously shoehorned diversity points only in there to pretend they're interested in being inclusive, and others that don't particularly like it don't have to have it shoved in their face.

B) They improve and you get more than "My name is Shaunda and I used to have a dick but I don't anymore because I was able to leave and not have everyone remember my old name of Shawn" character introductions and less massive retcons of lore for a character to fit(personally this is my win). Again a win-win, you get what you want, the writer gets what you want, and it can be held up as the new standard of inclusive characters while not being obnoxious until the next standard can be reached and improved.

C) You get a writer/etc. meltdown calling you all manner of -isms, -phobic, etc. and you get ot have a good laugh because they obviously don't know what the fuck they're doing.

.....shoehorned diversity is still the first time we got diversity.

When was the last time a trans character was included in a big budget title without it feeling shoehorned? Oh right - NEVER.

I'd take a shoehorned character rather than ZERO character.

Yes, it's not enough. But it's the first step. There's always a first step.

And people complain about the first step, not realizing there will be more to come... unless they rant so much to stop the progress.

It's like insulting a baby who just learned to walk on two legs, because he can't run fast.

And I don't really give a damn about them either. They're people same as anyone else and unless I know you, I'm just as liable to let you fall off the cliff than help you up. But just because I don't really care doesn't mean I don't think they need more actual inclusion than a handful of lines or a lack of choice when it comes to how you can have your character react to them spouting their junk script.

You can tell Krem in DAI that he/she(I honestly can't remember which they are) are an amazingly strong-willed person and everyone else is stupid, or you can have Iron Bull, a member of a race and ideology that has people's place in the world and jobs they are allowed to have decided at birth based on what jiggly bits they've got, start telling you how close-minded you are and your character has no choice but to take it. You can tell what's her name in Baldur's Gate how they're an amazing person, or you can just walk away(now, when it launched I don't remember you having that choice). In Andromeda, you've got the choice of telling this new one how much of an amazing person they are.

By my logic filtered through your own logic, sure, you may be a poser, but it would purely be because I am sick and tired of games with choices and character traits not being allowed to have choices and character traits on minority topics. And I am sick and tired of people saying "I'm okay with it because I will praise shit writing over no writing because I'm afraid of there being no representation next time". I just want there to be more thought, and more importantly, more EFFORT, put into it than a random quest giver that screams out their life story about wanting to start over and not have anyone judge them for who they used to be, by blurting out who they used to be. I just want more than random virtual soapboxes if the issue is anywhere near as important as the devs claim it to be.

As for shoehorned diversity...

It's been something like what...fifteen years since Thousand Year Door with Viv?(though it has been debated back and forth a bit) Nearly twenty with Street Fighter's Poison? About the same For Chrono Trigger? What about FF8, and Adle?(Adel? Abel? I forget) We are talking about a nearly twenty year old game that has about the same amount of inclusion for trans-characters as this "new, never been done before" inclusion. A minute of background character text dialogue was given more subtlety than in Andromeda. The only reason you even know for sure is because Squall is a fucking dense ************ and doesn't understand how to talk to himself in his head. Those are/were all pretty big games. Hell even Witcher3 has the cross-dressing elf that effectively speaks directly to the player with his "haven't you ever wanted to be someone else?" line. And you go back to that guy at least twice for different quests.

We've been on that first step in gaming for at least twenty years, it's far past time for devs to back their shit up with an actual trans character and not just throwing a token out into the wild with a few lines. I'm not complaining about a baby at this point, I'm complaining about a teenager at the absolute least.

Not to mention I'm not even saying to complain, I specifically said to criticize how and why it is bad and to say how and what would make it better. All I said was I wouldn't praise it.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

When was the last time a trans character was included in a big budget title without it feeling shoehorned? Oh right - NEVER.

I liked Krem...