altnameJag said:
Redryhno said:
Hell, when was the last time you remember a non-straight character being anything other than a largely idealized human being? I'm not saying they can't be that, just that the number of outright villainous non-straight characters compared to even non-white women villains is in the single digits. But that's getting into another debate.
Anders in Dragon Age 2 leaps to mind. Forcefully and immediately.
Gay Tony, of course, not being a role model.
Past that, a lot of the stereotypical example of "gay villains" tended to get cut out of games when they crossed the pond. Like this guy:
I mean, yeah, there are a lot of straight villains. Probably as many as there are straight heros.
Anders? The Alistair replacement from Awakenings? It's truly a shame that he never appeared in the series again...
Gay Tony is still portrayed as a sympathetic character however much of a "villain" he may be. Which in terms of GTA, he's nearly a fucking saint if I'm remembering correctly.
And I'm going to admit, I have no idea who that is supposed to be.
And my point is not that there are alot of straight villains or straight heroes, simply that in comparison to other minority groups, non-straight characters that are villains are few and far between compared to non-straight heroes or people you're supposed to feel - in the worst case scenarios - pity for far more than anger or annoyance.
Dizchu said:
Redryhno said:
And you're now taking the obtuse route for diversity to justify your argument. Neither of us said a damn thing about diversity of gameplay or environments before this post.
Uhh no, I am explaining why the lack of diversity can harm an experience even if it's "intentional". The reason people
want diversity in their characters is the same reason why people want diversity when it comes to level design and gameplay. It just makes things
more interesting, more dynamic. People dislike samey characters and samey environments because they display a very tiny range of experiences and without anything to spice it up, it just becomes stagnant.
Then explain to me what a gay character brings that an ambiguous orientation character brings to a game in terms of narrative beyond them simply being "lazy" writing. Note that I'm not saying including gay characters is lazy, simply that in terms of writing, I find it boring and ground that's been tread far too often, especially in recent years. What does the story of a gay kid being ostracized bring that the story of say, a kid inhabited by a demon or even something as simple as just being from a family that has different values being ostracized doesn't?
What's interesting is that including female characters, LGBT characters, non-white characters etc. is considered "filling a box" but having a straight white dude with brown hair and a stubble is not. Keep in mind, publishers are hesitant about this kind of stuff. They didn't want Elizabeth on the box art of Bioshock Infinite because dudebro focus testers wanted Booker. Life is Strange struggled to get made because publishers didn't think a game with a female protagonist would sell... and wow, it actually sold millions and cornered a niche market.
The thing is, I never suggested that it should be a priority. It should be an important consideration in certain kinds of games (for example sci-fi games and any game that has fully-customisable characters). If you're only doing it to "fill a mold" then as far as I'm concerned that's only marginally better than relying on the "chiseled white dude" mold.
That's because white guy with brown hair can be anything without it mattering to anyone. It's because white guy with brown hair is sorta the Clint Eastwood of gaming. You can put him in any situation and nobody gives a shit about him because he's just your avatar in the gameworld the majority of the time. Sure, it's lazy here too, but it's lazy in the way that is safe, and it's simpler to have a "safe" avatar than it is to not have white dude with brown hair. Allows more space that is socially acceptable.
And can we stop bringing up Infinite? It's a game that IS a dudebro shooter, I don't care how often anyone tries to say it isn't. The story stops making what little sense it had around the time you start universe jumping and all you're really left with is shooting shit and before that so much of it could've been avoided by literally any thought on the part of Booker, so much talk about the "mark" the traitor has and he never thinks "hey, I've got a fantastically odd tattoo, maybe I should cover it up in this city full of people that are very much not tattoo appreciators".
As for LiS, it's more one of those games that got made at the right time, Telltale hadn't gone completely off the deepend with their crap and weren't fully trying to write original stories in established settings and their engine was still being praised. And I still don't believe that piece of crap sold as much as it did. I largely consider it an exception and a perfect storm of luck more than anything.
To me, Overwatch does this masterfully and should set an example for other games to follow and actually, in that game it was a priority to have a diverse cast. It took TF2's design philosophy to the next step and I think that's cool, and so do most people actually. There's good ways and bad ways of doing it but I would much rather that people even attempt it at all than go back to the zero-risk cookie-cutter approach of the past.
And yet again, Overwatch. Of course. The stereotype game of stereotypes. Not saying it's a bad example, just that it is ridiculously shallow to the point that the majority of the fan-art, both porn and non-porn that came out before the game launched, has become canon in some way or another. In terms of characters, the game doesn't have much depth or sense of adventure when it comes to characters. They are what they are, the rest is window-dressing in a multiplayer title.
There's multiple ways to approach this. First of all I think the reason why you're having a hard time thinking of these "non-idealised" characters is because there simply aren't many LGBT or non-white female characters in general. Certainly not compared to white, straight and/or male characters.
Secondly given the small number of these characters, people become hyper-conscious of depicting minority/female characters if they are not often seen elsewhere. I don't doubt that idealised characters arise because of this, but to me it seems completely understandable aaaand the best way to remedy this is to have more diversity! Like, in general. You might be complaining now that there are too many idealised LGBT or non-white characters but it wasn't long ago when the reverse was true.
I believe I covered this when I said "even when compared to non-white female characters". I know how few characters there are. I'm just saying that we need more gay villains that don't play the "I'm gay so you have to feel some manner of pity for my choices in life" card. And we need less gay heroes/randos that play the "I'm gay, therefore you need to feel sorry/admiration for me and my choices in life" card. We need more characters that aren't defined by their gayness or lack thereof. We need more non-straight characters that are actually called out on any bullshit they try to pull without it being the Evilbad McTerribad option. Hell, I'd even settle for more characters that become your best friend like Garrus and the way many JRPGs handle non-sexual relationships between members of the opposite sex.
I'm all for gay characters, provided it isn't a centerpiece of who they are or a major storyline involving said gayness. Because it's boring and has been done to death. I can't be bothered to care about the kid that got kicked out because he was gay, because it's not something that I can connect with anymore.
Call it hypocritical if you want when it comes to my views on the white guy with brown hair debate, but I like to think there's a difference between a texture and writing.
Personally I'd love to see more non-white female or LGBT villains, that'd be great. I guarantee that there'll be plenty in the future if trends continue the way they're going. The thing is, if you cast the only gay person in your story as the bad guy in a time where LGBT characters are quite uncommon, it kinda contributes to the stigma/stereotyping of gay people (well, unless it's handled very well). Does that suck? Sure. But as I said, the best remedy is to just let diversity happen.
And that's what I'm saying as well. Don't go looking for diversity initially, just let it happen as it happens. And a request to not throw a fit if it doesn't appear is all I've ever asked for. I mean, just look at how people are now treating Cora for a fucking haircut. A haircut and general style that I still don't really get(like seriously, just cut your hair short or shave your head, quit half-assing it).
