Dissing Mass Effect Andromeda because it has diversity and equality

[TheMysteriousGX]

This right here. No need to look for a conspiracy once you find out how Bioware Montreal's portfolio looks like.

It raises a different question though: Why would EA allow BW to delegate their C-team to make another entry of their most important IP currently? I'm trying to think about less obvious reasons than "quick cash grab".

It's basically the EA death spiral. Alienate veterans and hire newbies to make until they fuck up sufficently enough to disband the studio.

 

[Don Incognito]

So that leaves us with either incompetence, or people with an agenda. Neither one paints a pretty picture.

Honest to fucking god, by simply making the suggestion that it was due to "people with an agenda", you are furthering the narrative that gamers are paranoid internet neckbeards. Jesus tap dancing Christ.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

So that leaves us with either incompetence, or people with an agenda. Neither one paints a pretty picture.

Honest to fucking god, by simply making the suggestion that it was due to "people with an agenda", you are furthering the narrative that gamers are paranoid internet neckbeards. Jesus tap dancing Christ.

Again, given that the dudes turned out relatively alright in comparison to the ladies? Not so much paranoia as it is pattern recognition, especially given the audience Bioware has been trying to court in recent years.

Then again, given that Bioware seems to be hiring artists and writers from wherever Marvel got their current batch, it IS far more likely that it's mind breaking incompetence running that ship these days.

 

[Dalisclock]

Man, Jayde Rossi is hot, how could they fuck this up so bad? With a movie I can understand having a diverse cast and not just super models but with animated dolls why make them deliberately ugly? It definitely reeks of the developers trying to 'prove' something here.

Either that or they really just can't animate for shit. Don't know which is worse.

They're a rookie development team whose main earlier credit was ME3's multiplayer, which doesn't have animated faces.

You can gives rookies as much time and money as you want, but at the end of the day they're still rookies. Don't assume malice where inexperience is more likely.

This right here. No need to look for a conspiracy once you find out how Bioware Montreal's portfolio looks like.

It raises a different question though: Why would EA allow BW to delegate their C-team to make another entry of their most important IP currently? I'm trying to think about less obvious reasons than "quick cash grab".

I've seen news stories in the last day or so that indicate EA/Bioware may have outsourced the facial animations to another studio entirely, which points towards incompetence rather then any sort of intentional "SJW conspiracy".

 

[Redryhno]

I think part of it is the engine. ME2's engine kinda gave everything that sorta classically terrible looking(in ways) sci-fi feel and you find out pretty early on that Miranda was literally designed to look the way she was in-universe. There's a reason she looks the way she does and you can come to terms with her appearance in that department. Also they used more than face-to-face camera angles(not an ass joke, however nice people do or do not find it). Andromeda sorta focuses on the faces and doesn't have people facing away from the camera all that much to give you that voice actor immersion factor.

The Mass Effect 2 engine was the Unreal Engine 3. The same one ME1 and ME3 used.

The same engine that the first four Gears of War games used. The same engine the Batman Arkham games used. Hell as issues went the facial animations of Arkham Knight were not considered an issue, they were considered at the worst 'acceptable.'

So I do find it funny that last generation engines can seemingly do better than current gen tech. Unreal 3 from 2004.

I was just saying that the environments matched the faces in alot of ways so there was consistency in things not looking quite lifelike, but passable at the worst and alot of the face animation mishaps were avoided by using more than one camera angle.

Unless I missed what you were saying here.

 

[spartandude]

I don't think there was any malice in messing up Jayde Rossi's face. I think they just generally messed up. Bioware doesn't have the best history of faces, usually they're functional or even pretty damn good but never amazing. And this is essentially the Bioware B or even C team.

And I don't think they were trying to make some sort of statement either. I mean Sarah Ryder does actually look pretty during some stills of frames (when she moves though... *shudders*). And remember Mass Effect 3? They didn't exactly shy away from sexualising woman in that game... but they also gave this...

I mean whether or not you like Jessica Chobot (I don't particualy care for her) she is a fairly attractive woman. But Diane Allers? It looks like Chobot get stung by a thousand bees than injected with botox to try and cover it up while her hair was molded on to her head with molten plastic. And they killed of Emily Wong to put her in this game.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

snip

That's why i said "most important IP currently". So far we don't know jack about Bioware's brand new property. Nothing concrete atleast. Not even the name. Lots can change in the meantime, and i think it's too early to throw this game into Bioware's roster.
And i disagree about Dragon Age. It always felt like a side project for BW, a little reminder that "Hey, we're that studio behind Baldur's Gate. Seriously". It didn't get nearly as much coverage in media as Mass Effect. Plus, it had to compete with every other fantasy rpg out there.
I don't know what goes in the heads of EA execs, but ME always felt as the "biggest" of Bioware bunch, in recent years.

 

[Don Incognito]

Again, given that the dudes turned out relatively alright in comparison to the ladies? Not so much paranoia as it is pattern recognition, especially given the audience Bioware has been trying to court in recent years.

Fuck's sake.

You are reinforcing every goddamn stereotype mainstream culture has about gamers. STOP.

 

[Redryhno]

Again, given that the dudes turned out relatively alright in comparison to the ladies? Not so much paranoia as it is pattern recognition, especially given the audience Bioware has been trying to court in recent years.

Fuck's sake.

You are reinforcing every goddamn stereotype mainstream culture has about gamers. STOP.

Oh no, stereotypes are being reinforced in people's minds that already had their minds made up before the reinforcement!

Got anything of actual discussion value to respond with?

 

[Don Incognito]

Oh no, stereotypes are being reinforced in people's minds that already had their minds made up before the reinforcement!

Got anything of actual discussion value to respond with?

Sure!

The game is clearly lacking in many respects, but so long as one isn't an obsessive completionist, is still quite fun.

The facial animations are near the top of the list in the game's weaknesses, and anyone who suggests the reason might be an SJW conspiracy is a complete and utter nutter, and should legitimately seek mental help.

 

[Lisker84]

Not being allowed to make white characters sounds pretty weird, but to be fair Soul Calibur III wouldn't let you make dark skinned characters (excluding the predesigned Zasalamel) without them turning some kind of weird gray, and that was a much better game.

 

[Redryhno]

Oh no, stereotypes are being reinforced in people's minds that already had their minds made up before the reinforcement!

Got anything of actual discussion value to respond with?

Sure!

The game is clearly lacking in many respects, but so long as one isn't an obsessive completionist, is still quite fun.

So what you're saying is that a largely open-world game with heavy exploration elements, research and crafting systems, fluff bullshit scattered around, and continually rewards you for being an obsessive completionist, is fun so long as you don't play it as an obsessive completionsist?

Think there might be either something wrong with either your viewpoint, or the game's design has a shitload more problems than I previously thought...

The facial animations are near the top of the list in the game's weaknesses, and anyone who suggests the reason might be an SJW conspiracy is a complete and utter nutter, and should legitimately seek mental help.

Sure, but then you've got the "THOSE AIN'T MY PRONOUNS" from the Asari, of all races(you know, the race that has a character that made an entire joke of naming one of her competitors the "Patriarch" to mock him since they have no concept or word for gender beyond donor and receiver when it comes to reproduction) every "good" Krogan has that fucking stereotypical gay lisp(with the exception of Drack, and even he's just portrayed as too old to change most of the time), and the classic "NO BIGOTS ALLOWED" line, that is continually repeated in various instances, after which your character becomes their own bigot and kicks out everyone remotely connected to one of said character and their group from the Nexus.

I'm with you to a point that it's not the sole factor, but people are using what they've been given and drawing conclusions. Anyone that says they don't see why people come to those conclusions though through something other than being batshit insane conspiracy theorists, I really have to wonder how they get through life with any amount of personal success.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Oh no, stereotypes are being reinforced in people's minds that already had their minds made up before the reinforcement!

Got anything of actual discussion value to respond with?

Sure!

The game is clearly lacking in many respects, but so long as one isn't an obsessive completionist, is still quite fun.

So what you're saying is that a largely open-world game with heavy exploration elements, research and crafting systems, fluff bullshit scattered around, and continually rewards you for being an obsessive completionist, is fun so long as you don't play it as an obsessive completionsist?

Think there might be either something wrong with either your viewpoint, or the game's design has a shitload more problems than I previously thought...

The facial animations are near the top of the list in the game's weaknesses, and anyone who suggests the reason might be an SJW conspiracy is a complete and utter nutter, and should legitimately seek mental help.

Sure, but then you've got the "THOSE AIN'T MY PRONOUNS" from the Asari, of all races(you know, the race that has a character that made an entire joke of naming one of her competitors the "Patriarch" to mock him since they have no concept or word for gender beyond donor and receiver when it comes to reproduction) every "good" Krogan has that fucking stereotypical gay lisp(with the exception of Drack, and even he's just portrayed as too old to change most of the time), and the classic "NO BIGOTS ALLOWED" line, that is continually repeated in various instances, after which your character becomes their own bigot and kicks out everyone remotely connected to one of said character and their group from the Nexus.

I'm with you to a point that it's not the sole factor, but people are using what they've been given and drawing conclusions. Anyone that says they don't see why people come to those conclusions though through something other than being batshit insane conspiracy theorists, I really have to wonder how they get through life with any amount of personal success.

Who exactly are you referring to with the kick anyone remotely connected to them off the Nexus?

Also pretty sure the different sounding Krogans are female Krogans

 

[Don Incognito]

So what you're saying is that a largely open-world game with heavy exploration elements, research and crafting systems, fluff bullshit scattered around, and continually rewards you for being an obsessive completionist, is fun so long as you don't play it as an obsessive completionsist?

Think there might be either something wrong with either your viewpoint, or the game's design has a shitload more problems than I previously thought...

...which is what I said, yes. If you stick with the main story and companion missions, you'll likely have a good time. If you get bogged down with every random task that shows up in the quest log, YMMV. It's not for me, but maybe others enjoy that sort of thing.

Sure, but then you've got the "THOSE AIN'T MY PRONOUNS" from the Asari, of all races(you know, the race that has a character that made an entire joke of naming one of her competitors the "Patriarch" to mock him since they have no concept or word for gender beyond donor and receiver when it comes to reproduction) every "good" Krogan has that fucking stereotypical gay lisp(with the exception of Drack, and even he's just portrayed as too old to change most of the time), and the classic "NO BIGOTS ALLOWED" line, that is continually repeated in various instances, after which your character becomes their own bigot and kicks out everyone remotely connected to one of said character and their group from the Nexus.

#1 said asari who made the Patriarch joke was Aria, a straight-up sociopath.
#2 are you sure you aren't just confusing female krogan voices for "that fucking stereotypical gay lisp"? Because otherwise I don't have the faintest fucking clue what in the blue hell you are talking about.
#3 I also don't have the faintest fucking clue what you are talking about with "NO BIGOTS ALLOWED" and the PC becoming a bigot and the Nexus. Literally not a goddamn clue.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

#1 said asari who made the Patriarch joke was Aria, a straight-up sociopath.
#2 are you sure you aren't just confusing female krogan voices for "that fucking stereotypical gay lisp"? Because otherwise I don't have the faintest fucking clue what in the blue hell you are talking about.
#3 I also don't have the faintest fucking clue what you are talking about with "NO BIGOTS ALLOWED" and the PC becoming a bigot and the Nexus. Literally not a goddamn clue.

You HAVE played the game yes? I'll give you a break on the first one, but the other two are subjects that DO tend to show up in MR:A. (Though I'd be lying if I said I don't quite get what you're talking about with number one or what point you think it makes.)

#1 Yes, Aria's a sociopath. Still doesn't change the fact that Asari have no equivalent for male gendered pronouns, and even the female ones are there primarily for convenience's sake with the translators. T=Because of this, he idea that Asari would have any inclination for preferred pronouns is rather odd at best.

#2 Pretty easy bit of confusion to make, and it still flies in the face of established lore. While we've only seen one female Krogan, she still had the standard "30 pack a day" voice the males had, just in a more womanly pitch. Not to mention the fact that NO Krogan had ever been heard with that kind of voice before.

#3 It's a dialoge option that comes up a few times, and it happens pretty much how Redryhno described except for one dialoge with Jhall that ended up with the line being like Fallout 4's dialog wheel.

And on that note,

Again, given that the dudes turned out relatively alright in comparison to the ladies? Not so much paranoia as it is pattern recognition, especially given the audience Bioware has been trying to court in recent years.

Fuck's sake.

You are reinforcing every goddamn stereotype mainstream culture has about gamers. STOP.

What stereotype? That gamers like to look at attractive people? Cause that's true of most people I find.

And far be it for me to actually notice that the devs did this. I mean, When the base for your character and the end results look THIS different for one gender...

Then it's probably safe to say this was more than just the devs screwing up. Especially when the audience Bioware has been trying to court tends to get all kinds of pissy when it comes to attractive ladies in fictional media.

 

[Dalisclock]

Not being allowed to make white characters sounds pretty weird, but to be fair Soul Calibur III wouldn't let you make dark skinned characters (excluding the predesigned Zasalamel) without them turning some kind of weird gray, and that was a much better game.

Wait? Wha...?

Because like 90% of the Ryders I've seen in screenshots and videos so far as been a white person and no review I've seen so far has so much as mentioned the inability to make a white character.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Wait? Wha...?

Because like 90% of the Ryders I've seen in screenshots and videos so far as been a white person and no review I've seen so far has so much as mentioned the inability to make a white character.

I believe it is a dig at the fact that while there are a range of Caucasian skin tones in the char gen, none is as pale as the preset Scott Ryder based on Steven Brewis. Essentially, you are locked out of playing an Irishman (especially since there are no hair colors that closely match natural redhead either).

But mostly, it is just people attacking Bioware for being SJW, because that's a thing that the regressive parts of gaming culture likes to do.

Sure, but then you've got the "THOSE AIN'T MY PRONOUNS" from the Asari, of all races(you know, the race that has a character that made an entire joke of naming one of her competitors the "Patriarch" to mock him since they have no concept or word for gender beyond donor and receiver when it comes to reproduction)

Out of curiosity, did you watch the interaction in question or did you just decide to take KiA's word for it? Because the actual interaction is quite subdued and has an Asari explain that since the Asari are mono-sexed they don't have gendered pronouns (big fucking shocker there), but tend to default to female pronouns in translation since that's how most races perceive them. The Asari says it is alright with being called she, but doesn't think it is a match for what the Asari considered themselves. It is essentially, a discussion about the troubles of translations, with gender/sex as the stepping off point.

Aria's joke about the Patriarch, in that context, is most likely the result of cross-cultural understanding. The Asari leaders are not gendered in their native tongue, but since most translations turns it into Matriarch she fucked with the dude by calling him Patriarch, knowing people would get the dig in their own language. It is not all that hard to understand, seeing as how I, a Swede, am fully capable of wordplay in English, despite it being my second language.

 

[Lisker84]

Just responding to what other people have been saying, I only played a friend's copy of the game and I didn't spend much time in character creation. Point still stands that Soul Calibur III is better. As long as you don't get the glitch.

 

[Redryhno]

Sure, but then you've got the "THOSE AIN'T MY PRONOUNS" from the Asari, of all races(you know, the race that has a character that made an entire joke of naming one of her competitors the "Patriarch" to mock him since they have no concept or word for gender beyond donor and receiver when it comes to reproduction)

Out of curiosity, did you watch the interaction in question or did you just decide to take KiA's word for it? Because the actual interaction is quite subdued and has an Asari explain that since the Asari are mono-sexed they don't have gendered pronouns (big fucking shocker there), but tend to default to female pronouns in translation since that's how most races perceive them. The Asari says it is alright with being called she, but doesn't think it is a match for what the Asari considered themselves. It is essentially, a discussion about the troubles of translations, with gender/sex as the stepping off point.

Aria's joke about the Patriarch, in that context, is most likely the result of cross-cultural understanding. The Asari leaders are not gendered in their native tongue, but since most translations turns it into Matriarch she fucked with the dude by calling him Patriarch, knowing people would get the dig in their own language. It is not all that hard to understand, seeing as how I, a Swede, am fully capable of wordplay in English, despite it being my second language.

Which would be fine, problem is that instead of using some kind of Galactic Common equivalent language, they've established that everything is done through SAM, and also, a universal translator back in ME2. In which case what they "use" doesn't fucking matter. They have no concept of gender, why would they choose to use anything resembling gender as opposed to them using their language's descriptors of people and it being translated into pronouns?

The troubles of translation shouldn't really matter in this context, considering how SAM can apparently translate ancient languages from a different galaxy perfectly faster than it takes for you to blink three times(at least in the MW, you have the shared Prothean tech to draw on as a starting point). If that conversation were to take place at all, it should be SAM hashing out the differences and relaying it to the Asari and Angara.

Also yes, I have actually gone through the side conversation, my flatmates are playing through it and I'm just providing some commentary as we drink through it(not buying and not playing myself on principle of how much I despise Bioware these days). I honestly wouldn't be participating in this discussion if I was going solely off KiA. The game's just got so many things that annoy the everliving fuck out of me. There's bit and pieces of the game that shine through and could actually be explored, but they're few and far between and rarely more than an off-hand comment you hear once and then never again.

Wasted potential is my biggest pet peeve in gaming and in life, and Andromeda continually shows how little the devs gave a shit about anything but their own creation. It's not a Mass Effect game, it's Andromeda and it just happens to use alot of the textures from the Mass Effect games and a handful of bullet points to pretend to tie them together.

 

[Don Incognito]

You HAVE played the game yes?

Beaten it, in fact. The fact that I still have no idea what the hell you are banging on about in regards to #3, especially now roping in Fallout 4(?), has me wondering if you've played it.

Then it's probably safe to say this was more than just the devs screwing up. Especially when the audience Bioware has been trying to court tends to get all kinds of pissy when it comes to attractive ladies in fictional media.

So, let's recap.

We have a studio known for janky facial animations, especially in this series. A studio that had a new development team working on the game. And outsourced at least some of the facial animations to another team.

And you think the most likely explanation is the EVIL SJW CONSPIRACY?


Moreover, I find the default Sarah quite attractive, insofar as game characters can be attractive.