DLC abuse

[TorqueConverter]

My problem with DLC is not the price, it's the inconvenience. I don't mind having the option to pay a bit more for cheese on my burger, but if the cheese has to be served separately, cold and wrapped by itself, than it's not worth bothering with at any price and the burger as a whole is less for it.

You dislike the very idea of content created months after a game has been released? You would rather the game developers not bother rather than have them create the content and provide you with the option purchasing it?

I like it myself. Any content that can enrich my gaming experience in an aging game is great in my book. If that content gives a bunch of developers sitting around twiddling their thumbs after the game has been released a chance develop more content for the game and earn a buck or two while doing it, then great.

Day one DLC is a lie in it's very nature and something we need to squash under our heels.

No, I don't feel that way about all post-release content. I like full-sized proper expansions, which used to be more common (on PC) before the DLC era. The difference is that expansions make an old game feel new, it's not just tacked on "more", it's another retouching pass over everything to make it "better", in addition to adding "more."

The best of DLCs do some of these things: raise the level cap, add new skills and items throughout the game, polish things like AI and bug fixing to a high degree. But the bar is set much lower for DLC in general, so tacked on missions are a lot more common than the kind of fundamental game improvements that I miss from full expansions.

I understand. I miss expansion packs as well. I ever really saw DLC as the cause of the disappearance of expansion packs. If anything I was worried about the future of the modding community, as much of the DLC out there resembles game mods.

I have no idea why expansion packs are less popular these days. Perhaps game developers prefer to make sequels, as in they are more profitable?

 

[SajuukKhar]

Yeah, it is. What's a "base game"?

All the content needed to tell the story the game was trying to tell.

Are we going to allow the game devs and pubs such a thing? A base game.

We apparently let book writers and movie makers get away with it when they write a book/movie series and then like 10+ side books/comic/extra material that explain things that were only touched on in the base series.

It simply isn't possible or logical to expect that every detail mentioned in the base series will be fully explained in the base series, if they tried to do that everything could be a giant cluster-fuck.

Are we going to allow the game devs and pubs such a thing? A base game. What's "final testing phase"? Where are the other testing phases and why can't DLC be developed during those times too?

The final testing phase is the final phase of testing they do before the game is sent off for certification.

Also they do make DLC during all the testing phases, because they all happen at the end

Certification time? It sounds plausible on the surface, but its' only a few weeks long.

You say "sounds plausible" like certification isn't something every developer who releases games on a console goes through.

Also most day 1 DLC usually involves copy pastad models already in the game with few original assets, that's why it can be done so quickly.

How do we know content was indeed created in the certification time? Take their word for it?

How do we know a book writer isn't planning to leave some plot critical information out of a series only to realse it in a spin-off book?
How do we know a movie maker isn't gonna do the same by releasing some plot critical information in another movie?

You really can;t know but making a conspiracy out of every day 1 DLC and treating it ALL as evil is stupid. You have to judge it on a CASE BY CASE basis. You can't blanket hate it without being ignorant.

How many arbitrary excuses will we let them conjure up get away with until we draw the line in the sand? Wait until the worst case scenario becomes a reality and give a shit then?

None of those excuses are arbitrary or really excuses for that matter.

Also trying to destroy something that could be, and often has, been used for good just because someday they MIGHT do evil with it is stupid.

 

[isometry]

I understand. I miss expansion packs as well. I ever really saw DLC as the cause of the disappearance of expansion packs. If anything I was worried about the future of the modding community, as much of the DLC out there resembles game mods.

I have no idea why expansion packs are less popular these days. Perhaps game developers prefer to make sequels, as in they are more profitable?

I think many PC exclusives still do expansions, Shogun 2 just had one and Civilization 5 has one coming up, Stardock has released several big expansions for Sins of a Solar Empire and Galactic Civilizations II. Maybe it's just the strategy game genre, but those are the only triple A PC exclusives I have these days.

So based on all those PC exclusive expansions, I'd say the emphasis on smaller DLC is probably due to consoles having limited hard drives and primitive digital distribution, limitations which will hopefully get better next generation.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I think many PC exclusives still do expansions, Shogun 2 just had one and Civilization 5 has one coming up, Stardock has released several big expansions for Sins of a Solar Empire and Galactic Civilizations II. Maybe it's just the strategy game genre, but those are the only triple A PC exclusives I have these days.

So based on all those PC exclusive expansions, I'd say the emphasis on smaller DLC is probably due to consoles having limited hard drives and primitive digital distribution, limitations which will hopefully get better next generation.

A big problem with expansions is that there's only ever 1 or two for most games, they can take ages to make, and when they come out people burn through them faster.

smaller, faster released DLC keeps people in the game more continuously for longer periods of time.

I personally got more time out of 3 of New Vegas's Dlc then I ever did most expansions and i got them quicker and for less overall cost.

 

[Skoldpadda]

I'm actually only replying in order to say that I can't take my eyes off your avatar. Please change it, as it is possibly life-ruining on a global scale.

Sorry dude, no dice. I know that some people have their issues with Jessica Chobot after ME3 but as far as I know, she was an excellent reporter before that. I couldn't really find anything better to use as my avatar this month so you're just gonna have to bear with me.

I think you misunderstood me.

 

[TorqueConverter]

We apparently let book writers and movie makers get away with it when they write a book/movie series and then like 10+ side books/comic/extra material that explain things that were only touched on in the base series.

Get away with what and how is it applicable to video game development? Video games aren't movies nor books.

It simply isn't possible or logical to expect that every detail mentioned in the base series will be fully explained in the base series, if they tried to do that everything could be a giant cluster-fuck.

How does this relate to content removed from a video game and sold as day 1 DLC? Refer to DLC Quest. It a base game with all the little details taken care of through DLC.

It's satire by the way.

The final testing phase is the final phase of testing they do before the game is sent off for certification.

Also they do make DLC during all the testing phases, because they all happen at the end

Sounds like video game content created during game development to me!

You say "sounds plausible" like certification isn't something every developer who releases games on a console goes through.

Certification time is short if they wish to hammer out any code in that time then fine. They better have a damn good reason for charging money for that code and not use "certification time" as some excuse to remove content from the game. If it's little things like a weapon mod developed during certification time that they want to use as an incentive for new game sales, then fine. Don't cut sizable amounts of content from the game and then spew "certification time" as some sort of, well, lie.

Also most day 1 DLC usually involves copy pastad models already in the game with few original assets, that's why it can be done so quickly.

Obviously. The ease of production is not exactly an argument in support of charging money for this day 1 DLC, now is it?

How do we know a book writer isn't planning to leave some plot critical information out of a series only to realse it in a spin-off book?
How do we know a movie maker isn't gonna do the same by releasing some plot critical information in another movie?

This doesn't apply. Video games aren't novels nor movies. I'd be damned if I was asked to pay an extra 7.99 at a cinema to view "deleted scenes". Books? The content is either written or it is not. I shouldn't have to explain the difference between a book foreshadowing another novel and content removed from a game and sold on the side under the guise of extra*.

You really can;t know but making a conspiracy out of every day 1 DLC and treating it ALL as evil is stupid. You have to judge it on a CASE BY CASE basis. You can't blanket hate it without being ignorant.

There is no conspiracy theory. It's as clear as day. How can there be DLC on day one unless it is a product of game development? As soon as you accept any excuse for why content, created before game release, is not part of video game development, then you are opening the door for the game developers and publishers to trample all over you with other ready-made excuses. What's next "Tom didn't show up to work today so all content created today is not part of the game."?

None of those excuses are arbitrary or really excuses for that matter.

Again I feel the satire of DLC Quest may be lost on you but do look into it.

Also trying to destroy something that could be, and often has, been used for good just because someday they MIGHT do evil with it is stupid.

What good? When? You're still referring to day one DLC right? Don't give me the digital collectors editions garbage as that goes against the very nature of a collectors edition. Incentivising new sales?

 

[Joccaren]

1. Yes. Not necessarily all companies, but a lot - yes.
2. No. Digital Distribution is great, DLC [Which can mean either DownLoadable Content or Disk Locked Content if I remember correctly] is not great.

Disc locked content? Holy brown stuff, you bought "it's still DLC if it's on the disc" hook, line and sinker didn't you?

No, I merely included the definition that sadly a few companies seem to use. It is one of the main problems with DLC. I do not accept such practices. DownLC or DiskLC however, I still do not like so much. I would rather digitally distributed expansion packs, rather than a lot of mini and independent add ons. I have yet to see DLC be used effectively - even though I do believe it has the potential to. I do not believe it is the best thing to happen to gaming recently either. Digital Distribution in general is.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

1. And books aren't movies, yet they can still do the exact same thing. The fact that games aren't movies or books doesn't negate the simple fact that all 3 cant possibly put every little thing ever brought up in the base game because of time and cost and bloat.

2. The DLC quest video was a hyperbole, hyperbole about something MIGHT happen, and that a vast use of DLC shows probably wont.

3. If you think something done during testing, when the base game is content complete = something done while the base games content is being made, then...... well I cant think of anything to describe how silly that is.

4. I have yet to see a game dev use certification as a lie, or a DLC that was a sizeble or important chunk of content removed from the game, but when it does happen they should be called out on it.

5. Production is still production, the fact that many assets were already done doesn't negate the fact that people still had to go to work and actually put the DLC together

6. Again the fact that video games aren't book or movies doesn't negate the fact that all 3 do the exact same thing for the same reasons. Secondly many movie publisher often charge more then the value of a movie because of the bonus content on the disk, and there have been several book series that have some character or item that is important but you never learn its full back-story only a brief description, only to have it further explained in some side book later on. Games do the exact same things for the exact same reasons, it simply is not feasible to put detailed descriptions of everything in the main books/movies/games of a series.

7. Because it was made in the months+ time they had between the game being content complete and the game coming out. development done after the base game had finished development. its pretty simple.

8. And again DLC quest is a giant hyperbole of everything people think DLC will become and try to act like it is now, but when in reality it isn't.

9. Shale and Warden's keep were both fun day 1 DLC for DAO, The Exiled Prince for Da2, and Javik for Me3 weren't bad either. Completely optional content not needed to get a full experience from the base game, as day 1 DLC should be.

 

[MercurySteam]

I'm actually only replying in order to say that I can't take my eyes off your avatar. Please change it, as it is possibly life-ruining on a global scale.

Sorry dude, no dice. I know that some people have their issues with Jessica Chobot after ME3 but as far as I know, she was an excellent reporter before that. I couldn't really find anything better to use as my avatar this month so you're just gonna have to bear with me.

I think you misunderstood me.

This is the internet, sarcasm and other such things don't travel well. Please explain.

 

[nuba km]

1. yes there are companies abusing DLC and there are also companies who do DLC right i.e. bethesda, rockstar and gearbox. Also I guess valve is just making a whole bunch of free dlc for team fortress 2 and that's great.

2. I don't know whether to say its one of the best things that has happened but there is no reason to take a step back form it.

A simple solution is don't by DLC which you don't like, the same way you wouldn't by expansion pack you don't like, or games you don't like, or food you don't like or movies you don't like etc. The point is just don't buy it as long as there are people willing to pay for this stuff companies are going to keep doing it, I am not saying tis right I am just saying its really the costumers fault if they keep on being sold something they don't like because continue to buy something they don't like.

 

[TorqueConverter]

1. And books aren't movies, yet they can still do the exact same thing. The fact that games aren't movies or books doesn't negate the simple fact that all 3 cant possibly put every little thing ever brought up in the base game because of time and cost and bloat.

The point here is when they do think of content, create it, and then actively deny it to paying costumers when the product is purchased. I love it when content is dreamed up, weeks, months even years after a game has been developed and released. I love legit DLC and expansion packs.

2. The DLC quest video was a hyperbole, hyperbole about something MIGHT happen, and that a vast use of DLC shows probably wont.

I used ot think of it as something that might happen as well. When a AAA developer of a sortied history takes one of the first steps towards this direction (From Ashes DLC) I have come to the realization that this will happen.

3. If you think something done during testing, when the base game is content complete = something done while the base games content is being made, then...... well I cant think of anything to describe how silly that is.

Yeah I do, again what is a "base game". Does the notion that we can allow developers to create such things as base games not scare the shit out of you? How would you have liked it if Lira, Jack half the weapons and large portions of the Citadel in the game were extra* day one DLC? Where you, and I mean you, draw the line?

I hate to bust out analogies, but have you ever seen this logic applied anywhere else and it's been acceptable? Ever ordered a meal before and been told to wait for a portion of it to finish cooking? Do they charge you AGAIN for it when brought to your table?

4. I have yet to see a game dev use certification as a lie, or a DLC that was a sizeble or important chunk of content removed from the game, but when it does happen they should be called out on it.

Mass Effect 3 From Ashes DLC. Yeah, "Certifications time" is a totally legit reason for charging for that content. It's not like only a potion of that content was created in certification with the rest of it locked on the disk or anything.

5. Production is still production, the fact that many assets were already done doesn't negate the fact that people still had to go to work and actually put the DLC together

Because they finished up some of the game content before release with the faith that it was done during certification time somehow makes everything Ok? Sounds like they overran their deadline and game development of planned game content spilled over into certification time but still finished the content by the release date. This allows them to charge for it how again?

6. Again the fact that video games aren't book or movies doesn't negate the fact that all 3 do the exact same thing for the same reasons. Secondly many movie publisher often charge more then the value of a movie because of the bonus content on the disk, and there have been several book series that have some character or item that is important but you never learn its full back-story only a brief description, only to have it further explained in some side book later on. Games do the exact same things for the exact same reasons, it simply is not feasible to put detailed descriptions of everything in the main books/movies/games of a series.

Yeah, sometimes it's not possible to cram as much lore as one would like into a game and this occurs when the content is never developed in the first place. You can argue that much like deleted scenes, developed game content could be dropped from a game because it's worthless or just redundant. Day 1 DLC with a price tag slapped on it is clearly not redundant or worthless. I'd be alright if Bioware had dropped the Prothean character from the game entirely because they felt it was redundant and then threw him in as an extra a year later in an ultimate edition or something. This is very much how deleted scenes work with DVD sales. Worthless content unfit for the finished product is removed before release (the cinema) and is thrown in with the disk when the movie finds it way to DVD to incentivise DVD sales. They sure as hell aren't selling you "deleted scenes" at the cinema for a wad of cash.

7. Because it was made in the months+ time they had between the game being content complete and the game coming out. development done after the base game had finished development. its pretty simple.

It's content complete when it's content compete. If the game is not released yet and there is still content being created, then it is not content complete at that time. That's one of the few standards we can hold these companies to. I don't care if they fail at a game and it's crap. I don't care if the ending is abysmal. If you sell us a video game then that game need to be content complete and not broken. Why? It's a very grim future when we refuse to hold companies to these standards and games become 1/3 content complete at full price with the other 2/3 as day one extras.

8. And again DLC quest is a giant hyperbole of everything people think DLC will become and try to act like it is now, but when in reality it isn't.

Yep.

9. Shale and Warden's keep were both fun day 1 DLC for DAO, The Exiled Prince for Da2, and Javik for Me3 weren't bad either. Completely optional content not needed to get a full experience from the base game, as day 1 DLC should be.

You realize Shale isn't optional, right? Shale is part of the game and free to anyone who bought Dragon Age new. Shale is only DLC so as to remove the content from the disk. This was done to deny the content to copies purchased through used game sales and not because he is optional. It was unfortunate this battle between retailers and the pbs/devs made the used game consumer a casualty of war. The From Ashes DLC and Wardens Keep DLC are unethical and directly targeting the consumer.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

1. proof of that.... ohh wait.... you have none.

2. From ashes was a completely optional DLC that provided no real importance to the ME story. If you think making completely optional content that isn't needed to get a full game experience is bad then all new content is bad.

3. Does the notion that book writers get to determine what is necessary to a book's story scare the shit out of you?
does the notion that a movie directer gets to determine what is necessary to a book's story scare the shit out of you?
It is their game, their story, and only they ever have and ever will have the ability to determine what is needed to tell a story.

also your analogy fails because when you order something like fires it is they who get to determine how it is cooked. You don't like the way its cooked well too damn bad in most places fires are cooked in some specific way.

4. The only part that was on the disk was the character and SOME of its dialog files, most of the content was not on the disk, and thus they have every right to charge for it.

5. It seems more like that after the base game was content complete and in testing phase some of the devs were able to finish part of the DLC's files and put them on the disk you you would have less to download later.

6. Considering Shale, Warden's Keep, The Prothean, and all other bioware's Day 1 DLC HAVE BEEN OPTIONAL and WERE TOTALLY UNNEEDED, your argument kinda fails.

7. Content complete is when the game and all the things in it are done and in testing, that the devs are working on project 2 does not make project 1 somehow not content complete. I swear do you even think about your arguments before you make them?

9. Shale is optional because you DONT need to get a full game experience, that she was free with new copies of the game does magically negate the fact that not having her does not mean you don't have a full game, with a full story, and a full endings.

 

[Theo Rob]

I didn't know you could abuse extra content. You know, since it's optional. And extra content.

What I mean is that it seems that content on the full game was held back in order to charge us for it.
Disk locking is one hell of a dick move, even more so than day 1 paid dlc. they cut a chunk out of the game and told every one that the stuff is there, you just have to pay us more.

so the base of DLC has turen from "lets give players new stuff" to "lets finish the game but charge people more for stuff we already put on the disk"

 

[TorqueConverter]

snip

1. proof of that.... ohh wait.... you have none.

What are you talking about? At least reference what the hell you talking about. You mean this? http://xboxlive.ign.com/articles/121/1219156p1.html

2. From ashes was a completely optional DLC that provided no real importance to the ME story. If you think making completely optional content that isn't needed to get a full game experience is bad then all new content is bad.

So I can go a head and steal shit from you and then turn around and sell it back to you? As long as I give you the option to buy it back then it alright? Good to know.

3. Does the notion that book writers get to determine what is necessary to a book's story scare the shit out of you?
does the notion that a movie directer gets to determine what is necessary to a book's story scare the shit out of you?
It is their game, their story, and only they ever have and ever will have the ability to determine what is needed to tell a story.

Why do you keep going on about story? I don't care if the content is a bunch of purple dildo bats and fancy hats. It's irrelevant if dildo bats and funny hats some sort of huge story implication or none at all. It's still content withheld from the game and sold as extra.

also your analogy fails because when you order something like fires it is they who get to determine how it is cooked. You don't like the way its cooked well too damn bad in most places fires are cooked in some specific way.

What are you talking about? My analogy is as simple as they come. Let me write it again. This time pay attention. Ever ordered a meal before and been told to wait for a portion of it to finish cooking? Do they charge you AGAIN for it when brought to your table?

4. The only part that was on the disk was the character and SOME of its dialog files, most of the content was not on the disk, and thus they have every right to charge for it.

I don't think so. You can pick and choose whichever content you want to write to the disk and keep other content off the disk. You can't say we are only entitled to whatever content they choose to put on the disk and nothing else. That opens the door for all sorts bad shit.

5. It seems more like that after the base game was content complete and in testing phase some of the devs were able to finish part of the DLC's files and put them on the disk you you would have less to download later.

Again, define base game. We are only entitled to a base game when we purchase a game? That's pretty pretty fucking scary. BTW, do you have a lot, like a whole bunch, of like minded friends? Shit, I'll make a base game and sell it to you guys! 3/4 of the game may be micro transaction DLC conveniently available on day one no less, but hey as long as you get a base game right?

6. Considering Shale, Warden's Keep, The Prothean, and all other bioware's Day 1 DLC HAVE BEEN OPTIONAL and WERE TOTALLY UNNEEDED, your argument kinda fails.

Just because they remove it from the game and call it an option, does not make it optional. The necessity of the content to the story is irrelevant. It is the very principal of removing. content. from. your. video. game. and. selling. it. back. to. you. as. fake. DLC. that is unethical.

7. Content complete is when the game and all the things in it are done and in testing, that the devs are working on project 2 does not make project 1 somehow not content complete. I swear do you even think about your arguments before you make them?

This is where we disagree. It's not content complete until it's released and if they fuck up that simple standard then we better give them hell less they continue such dickery.

9. Shale is optional because you DONT need to get a full game experience, that she was free with new copies of the game does magically negate the fact that not having her does not mean you don't have a full game, with a full story, and a full endings.

It's not a full game if it's missing shit now is it? You realize there is more to games then story, right? You are saying that as long as the story is complete then they can remove all the items and characters they want? That bullshit and you know it.

Shale is part of the game and was free to anyone who bought the game new. Shale was not on the disk and made free DLC so as to encourage new game sales. Shale is part of the game.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

1. Yet all that shows was that they knew they weren't gonna have time to put the DLC into the game and thus had plans to make the DLC once the game was done, there is nothing there that shows the content was being worked on while the game was, or that content was removed.

2. It isn't stealing because it was never promised to be in the base game. Also how can they steal their own content? seriously you made no sense with what you just said.

3. Except withheld, as you use it, implies a willing consent to not put it in the game, which you have literally 0 evidence to support that they did.

No, but again your analogy has nothing to do with what is going on here. What it is more like is you ordering something, they bring it to you, you pay for it, then they say ohh yeah we are also making X meal in the back would you like to try it for Y dollars. Optional.

4. Yeah and they chose to put Javik in the disk so you wouldn't have to download more later, such a fucking travesty, game companies doing something nice for people. for shame.

5. What you are saying is that, if you went to watch a move in theaters, was able to watch the entire movie, but then they announce they are making a spin-off movie that tell you more about some magical item or character in the movie, that while it may or may not be important, its backstory wasn't but they still want to tell it to you anyways that there is something wrong with that? not sure if serious?

You are implying once again that said content was removed from the base game, which it wasn't.

6. And again neither Shale, nor Warden's Keep, nor Javik was removed from the game. It was simply extra content they provided for free for people who bought the game new and or a special edition.

You still got everything that was gonna be in the game regardless of if you bought Shale or not.

7. Content complete = no more content is being added to it, that is the definition, that isn't my definition, that is THE definition. It has nothing to do with when the game is released, never has, never will.

8. But again, you aren't missing anything by not getting Shale. Saying you are missing content by not getting Shale is like saying you are missing content from the base game by not getting Shivering Isles.

It is wrong

 

[TorqueConverter]

Yet all that shows was that they knew they weren't gonna have time to put the DLC into the game and thus had plans to make the DLC once the game was done, there is nothing there that shows the content was being worked on while the game was, or that content was removed.

Buddy, if that leak is to be believed - they were trying sell the shit before the fucking game was released! Hell. the game might not have even been finished by that time. Check the file size, the only thing that gives it a shred of credibility. It's 628MB.

2. It isn't stealing because it was never promised to be in the base game. Also how can they steal their own content? seriously you made no sense with what you just said.

Yeah it more or less it. Where else is this behavior tolerated? Are passengers seats in automobiles optional? You don't need passenger's seat for 100% driving experience. It's ok if the dealer removes them from all their cars and sells them to the consumer for an additional fee of course, right? You haven't bought the car yet right? The dealer can do what they want. It's their cars. Just don't buy the passenger's seat, right? That will sure put a stop that unethical practice.

3. Except withheld, as you use it, implies a willing consent to not put it in the game, which you have literally 0 evidence to support that they did.

Day one DLC? It's pretty self evident when the DLC is on fucking day one. They better have a damn good reason why the DLC is not on the disk. "we didn't feel like it" or "we want more money" is not an excuse.

No, but again your analogy has nothing to do with what is going on here. What it is more like is you ordering something, they bring it to you, you pay for it, then they say ohh yeah we are also making X meal in the back would you like to try it for Y dollars. Optional.

OK, no more analogies then because it's just going to go nowhere?

4. Yeah and they chose to put Javik in the disk so you wouldn't have to download more later, such a fucking travesty, game companies doing something nice for people. for shame.

Again do you have lots of like minded friends? I'll make a game just for you guys. All future DLC will be simple 15MB files. Our proprietary technologies allows for nearly instant access to DLC! No download times, no waiting and nothing to seperate you from the action! Just down load the key and the DLC is available instantly!

5. What you are saying is that, if you went to watch a move in theaters, was able to watch the entire movie, but then they announce they are making a spin-off movie that tell you more about some magical item or character in the movie, that while it may or may not be important, its backstory wasn't but they still want to tell it to you anyways that there is something wrong with that? not sure if serious?

No, i was talking about dildo bats. Video . games. are. not. stories. Go "play" Dear Ester if ALL you want is a story.

You are implying once again that said content was removed from the base game, which it wasn't.

Again you refuse to define what a "base game" is

6. And again neither Shale, nor Warden's Keep, nor Javik was removed from the game. It was simply extra content they provided for free for people who bought the game new and or a special edition.

No, shale is part of the game and not removed from the game BECAUSE SHE IS FUCKING INCLUDED IN THE GAME. You buy the game, you get that shit on day one. Javik is not in the game, well he is in the game just not 90% of the From Ashes DLC. Warden's Keep was not free.

You still got everything that was gonna be in the game regardless of if you bought Shale or not.

No. Shale is part of the game that's why she is included with any new purchase of the game. If you buy DA used then you are missing out on part of the game. Shale as free DLC is a way to incentivise new game sales and discourage used game sales. You don't get all your game if you buy it used. It wasn't some sort of free option. She is part of the game.

7. Content complete = no more content is being added to it, that is the definition, that isn't my definition, that is THE definition. It has nothing to do with when the game is released, never has, never will.

Content complete ON RELEASE. Have you forgotten the entire context of this discussion?

8. But again, you aren't missing anything by not getting Shale. Saying you are missing content by not getting Shale is like saying you are missing content from the base game by not getting Shivering Isles.

I know exactly what you are missing if you do not get Shale? Care to guess?

SHALE!!! < that bit of video gamey content.

It is wrong

What is? Video games not being solely about telling you a story? There is more to video games than story. Quit comparing them to novels and movies.

 

[k3v1n]

yes, I think they are abusing this DLC thing. The best example I could find as of today, for me, is GoW III. I mean, they even said they were going to launch 4 DLC, and they said this BEFORE launching the game, so it makes me wonder, why couldn't they just, you know, include it in the final product?? but no, they had to milk off more money from the consumers. Which is pretty funny in itself, because a couple of years from now, they'll release the G.O.T.Y edition or whatever with all DLCs included for the same price they sold the game without them before. So basically, for the SAME price I get less product. It's frustrating and not fair at all.

 

[Yopaz]

Uhm, in regards to question 1, I don't think you understand how the market works. DLC is a way the publisher can use to increase profits. You put it in a way that make it sound like DLC is supposed to be there because the company cares about us.

I will let you in on a secret. Almost every product ever made is made with the intention of making money. Games are no exception. DLC isn't an exception. So yes, DLC is something added to maximize profits from a game.

Question 2: I rarely buy DLC because I rarely see a need for it. If I like a game a lot and can buy extra missions then it's great. I wont say it's the best thing ever, but it can be neat sometimes.

 

[TorqueConverter]

I understand. I miss expansion packs as well. I ever really saw DLC as the cause of the disappearance of expansion packs. If anything I was worried about the future of the modding community, as much of the DLC out there resembles game mods.

I have no idea why expansion packs are less popular these days. Perhaps game developers prefer to make sequels, as in they are more profitable?

I think many PC exclusives still do expansions, Shogun 2 just had one and Civilization 5 has one coming up, Stardock has released several big expansions for Sins of a Solar Empire and Galactic Civilizations II. Maybe it's just the strategy game genre, but those are the only triple A PC exclusives I have these days.

So based on all those PC exclusive expansions, I'd say the emphasis on smaller DLC is probably due to consoles having limited hard drives and primitive digital distribution, limitations which will hopefully get better next generation.

When is the last time a PC expansion was recent? I adore Galactic Civilizations but wasn't the last expansion for that game the ultimate edition, in what, 2008? Even the ultimate edition was really just all the previous expansions with the only new additions being higher texture quality and animations for some of the ship designer extras? I'd love a fallout 3 expansion instead of having to rely on Fallout 4 to be developed, if ever.

I'm inclined to blame the lack of expansion on the lust for sequels the games industry has these days. They seem too quick to abandon a game in favor of developing a sequel with lots of copy and paste. If I had a choice between expansions and DLC, I'd take expansions any day of the week, however I don't view the two as mutually exclusive.

 

[TorqueConverter]

I will let you in on a secret. Almost every product ever made is made with the intention of making money. Games are no exception. DLC isn't an exception. So yes, DLC is something added to maximize profits from a game.

I want my game companies profitable too. Hell, I'd pay a premium for PC games if that ment they were developed to maximise the platform rather than a console port.

The problem arises when they bite the hand that feeds them. Day one DLC is such an instance. Unless the game developers can prove that the day one DLC is not content removed from the game, then they are blatantly milking the consumer. Milking the consumer is to treat them as if they are not even human. A thing; a resource to wring every last drop of value out of. I'd rather get a hate letter from a developer than have them cut content only monetize it on day one.