Do all women like jerks? No (a rant)
- Thread starter Hiraeth
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Haha, no problem. I feel like both genders are trying to convey a message, and they are both innocent enough, but being lost in translation puts them at each others throats.Jewrean said:
If the only women you meet are in night clubs or on dating sites, and you actively acknowledge that those are the saddest and least fruitful places to meet potentially date-able women(and those are quite literally the worst places to look for well-adjusted women for a relationship), why do you base your outlook on women as a whole on the women you have met in those social circles?Jewrean said:
You act like I and other like-minded people are out to get you when you are consciously aware that your perception of women is flawed and wrought with logical fallacy. I also find it laughable that you think calling someone a brainless moron is so much different from calling them a brainwashed simpleton. I realize that one term assumes the person to be incapable of higher brain function whereas the other suggests the person was indoctrinated into their belief system, but since "simpleton" means someone who is, at their core, a moron, it's hardly even worth making the distinction. My paraphrasing was essentially right on and there was no point acting as if I put words in your mouth when they were already there.
And to be clear, I didn't "assume" you were a sexist pig. I read the messages you chose to share with the forum. You chose to present yourself as you did. You were not "going against the grain". You were not "refusing to jump on the bandwagon". You were just making generalizations about half of the world's population. Had you made sweeping generalizations about an ethnic group instead, I would have called you out on being a racist, because if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it's a freaking duck. You can make all the justifications you want for your views, but when it comes down to it, there's a reason that you've never met any women you like, or any women that like you - and that reason is in the mirror.
When I think about 'all women liking jerks' I don't think of some guy who is totally reprehensible. I think of a guy who is just kind of an ass, but can still function in society. This kind of guy tends to seem to be desirable because we guys see some girl we know who is with the 'jerk' but looks to be semi-miserable. And yet she stays with him. There are lots of variations of this. He treats her just good enough to keep her around. It's like a variable reward schedule that keeps the girl(or guy, it's applicable to both sexes) in the relationship seeking the next reward. Not a lot of girls tolerate this though. It just seems so prevalent, because it sticks out in our minds. I think this is due to the fact that the 'jerk' is OBVIOUSLY(to us) an ass, but that doesn't detour these girls who could get a nicer guy pretty easily.
I've never been hurt by a girl over a 'jerk' or anything like that. Only had one girlfriend, who is currently my wife. And, she definitely wouldn't let me treat her badly.
I've never been hurt by a girl over a 'jerk' or anything like that. Only had one girlfriend, who is currently my wife. And, she definitely wouldn't let me treat her badly.
Can't stop watching your avatar.....RaphaelsRedemption said:Oh, I wish...!Skullkid4187 said:
Thing is, I'm just glad some people read and understood what was said. It's good to get a different opinion out there sometimes
OT: I always thought the stereotype was girls like bad boys not jerks. I kind of believe the former to an extent because I've seen it quite a bit. Sucks for me cause I'm neither.
Thank you so much for posting this, it's time some people heard this from a woman's perspective. Very well put!Hiraeth said:
I think people who say "Women like assholes" should re-phrase what they say. I'd say more or less that more women/man (this goes for both genders guys.) are attracted to not "assholes" or "bitches" but people who are harder to get. There's a major difference between an asshole and a person who's harder to get.
A guy/girl who's "harder to get" presents something more of a challenge and keeps your interest. I personally wouldn't be attracted to a girl whom tries to get in touch with me ALL THE TIME, and is available all the time, will drop everything to hang out with me, etc, etc. That kind of person I'd find unattractive, and its not to do with looks or personality, its with independence, and self-confidence.
Guy's look at being a nice guy as bad because they see guys who don't treat girls like princesses as "assholes". But that's not true. It's perfectly OK to be the nice guy. You can be a nice guy and still get a girl. BUT you need to show confidence in yourself. Every time you make yourself available TO EVERYTHING, and will do ANYTHING for her at ANY time, you only diminish your chances. You have to show you have your own life and that you're independent. This doesn't mean blowing her off all the time, this means showing you have things to do too, and not doing everything at her beck and call like a puppy following her around. Think of it as a "liquidating your stock" -- for anyone in business.
Mind you when she's your girlfriend, sure, then you're far more committed, that's fair. But even in a relationship (in a healthy one IMO) you both need to be independent. See your own group of friends, NOT BE AROUND EACH OTHER 24/7 and never leaving each others side (that just shows insecurity, and dependence). That's hugely detrimental to a relationship. You may not notice it in the short run, but in the long run everyone else will, and you will eventually too. Maybe I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but this is the way I see things.
Simply put: We want what we can't have.. or rather, what's more difficult to get.
Be honest folks, given this example:
You get sick. A person who likes you finds out (they're more of an acquaintance, most people seem to confuse acquaintances with friends way too frequently) and RUNS to the store to buy you meds and brings them to your house. Isn't that just a little creepy? If not, then at least a little bit of a put-off?
Just sayin
But that's just my two cents!Cheers Hiraeth!
It's hard to deny that some people are, for whatever reason, drawn to people who act like jerks and usually for reasons they don't fully understand at first. After all, Alpha types who go for what they want with confidence have a certain charm to Betas who seem to wait and wonder their chances away.
Maybe it's the fact that they have the courage to say what they think without fear, whether or not it's what listeners want to hear. The kinds of people who look at a situation and manipulate it to where they weren't the instigator at all and only reacted defensively.
Or maybe it's because of how skilled they are at putting on a different face for different people and situations so they can be the complete ass in public, then turn around and be the most sensitive and loving person in the world. The tough guy with the heart of gold that you just need to spend a little time around to see the nugget of gold in the turd pile, even if it means bowing and boot licking for months to get there.
Back on topic...
When a guy, or girl, makes a post about how the badass always gets the good I want to sit them down and point out how temporary those rewards tend to be. The times where one-sided relationships with such a jerk actually last are when the receiver is either oblivious to the obvious or has accepted where things are and doesn't want to try for something better. Most times the relationship crumbles and the jerk had better have other partners already lined up (And probably already having affairs with them), or they'll have to start all over from scratch.
Maybe it's the fact that they have the courage to say what they think without fear, whether or not it's what listeners want to hear. The kinds of people who look at a situation and manipulate it to where they weren't the instigator at all and only reacted defensively.
Or maybe it's because of how skilled they are at putting on a different face for different people and situations so they can be the complete ass in public, then turn around and be the most sensitive and loving person in the world. The tough guy with the heart of gold that you just need to spend a little time around to see the nugget of gold in the turd pile, even if it means bowing and boot licking for months to get there.
Back on topic...
When a guy, or girl, makes a post about how the badass always gets the good I want to sit them down and point out how temporary those rewards tend to be. The times where one-sided relationships with such a jerk actually last are when the receiver is either oblivious to the obvious or has accepted where things are and doesn't want to try for something better. Most times the relationship crumbles and the jerk had better have other partners already lined up (And probably already having affairs with them), or they'll have to start all over from scratch.
If there's one thing I hate about 'nice guys' more than anything else when I'm seeing the bird they're obsessed with its the amount of shit they talk behind my back trying to turn her against me. Then they go have a sook when I get hostile about it.
I find that what some people equate as being a "nice guy" can be seen by others as "complete pushover". Sure, there are some girls who may like making every decision, having a dependant partner and being treated like a princess on the side. But it seems that there are some girls who appreciate it when a guy has what is known as a "spine" and those guys can sometimes be seen as "jerks" (especially by some of those rejected in favour of the rival). I'm not saying that having a spine means they should treat a girl like a complete arse. I just mean making decisions, being independent, and treating the girl like she's not helpless.
Now, that's not to say that there aren't guys who treat the girl like dirt or vice versa. But really, those people shouldn't be treating them like that in the first place.
The experiences of others will likely differ from my own, but this is just my take.
Now, that's not to say that there aren't guys who treat the girl like dirt or vice versa. But really, those people shouldn't be treating them like that in the first place.
The experiences of others will likely differ from my own, but this is just my take.
Having been down the dark road of asking this question myself, I put it down to this.
This question comes about because of hopelessness. Basing things on my experience alone, which I'm sure is not unlike many other's experiences, the male in question does not know how to persue a woman they're interested in properly, and holds strange and idealised values that are almost Shakespearian. The male will befriend the girl, and when things are rough with her current boyfriend, she'll tell the male everything. He will then perceive the guy as a jerk.
The hopelessness comes when he confesses his feelings for said girl/woman, usually in a manner that doesn't require face-to-face communication. Trying to let him down as gently as possible, she'll say that she doesn't want to ruin their friendship, rather than being honest and saying she just isn't interested.
And that's how it happens. Usually the threads about women liking jerks are all just cries for help, placing the blame on the "jerk", when really the person at fault is the male for not being assertive. That's not to say there aren't women that do date jerks, I know a lot of them. I think mostly it's a teen thing, girls my age like being treated cheekily. Then they get hurt a lot and they turn to the adult form of relationship creation. Dating.
That's my tuppence anyway. I've been there. Protips for people who ask this question:
1) No woman is perfect. No woman will be exactly what you want. She will have flaws, just like you will.
2) Texting, MSN and Facebook are most definitely not ways to make your bonds closer in the relationship respect.
3) Do not console her all of the damn time. Only when it is necessary.
This question comes about because of hopelessness. Basing things on my experience alone, which I'm sure is not unlike many other's experiences, the male in question does not know how to persue a woman they're interested in properly, and holds strange and idealised values that are almost Shakespearian. The male will befriend the girl, and when things are rough with her current boyfriend, she'll tell the male everything. He will then perceive the guy as a jerk.
The hopelessness comes when he confesses his feelings for said girl/woman, usually in a manner that doesn't require face-to-face communication. Trying to let him down as gently as possible, she'll say that she doesn't want to ruin their friendship, rather than being honest and saying she just isn't interested.
And that's how it happens. Usually the threads about women liking jerks are all just cries for help, placing the blame on the "jerk", when really the person at fault is the male for not being assertive. That's not to say there aren't women that do date jerks, I know a lot of them. I think mostly it's a teen thing, girls my age like being treated cheekily. Then they get hurt a lot and they turn to the adult form of relationship creation. Dating.
That's my tuppence anyway. I've been there. Protips for people who ask this question:
1) No woman is perfect. No woman will be exactly what you want. She will have flaws, just like you will.
2) Texting, MSN and Facebook are most definitely not ways to make your bonds closer in the relationship respect.
3) Do not console her all of the damn time. Only when it is necessary.
It all depends on the type of girl a guy is trying to get with.
A chick who loves WoW dudes and anime conventions/cosplaying for example are by-and-large, Bi and large. Yep a generalisation, but most convention chicks won't require much game, and a nice guy could easily get with them.
If a nice guy wants a hot, model looking chick (the type he downloads every night) he'll have to approach it differently. Becuase she knows she's hot, everyday people tell her, and her confidence is sky high. She'll likely want a guy with tonnes of confidence too, unlikely a WoW or Anime Convention/cosplayer.
Yeah, obviously some girls like some types of guys, but the dude whining about not being able to get the girl is likely batting out of his league and not projecting enough confidence.
Bad boys have a very good trait, they are confident. And hot chicks love that.
A chick who loves WoW dudes and anime conventions/cosplaying for example are by-and-large, Bi and large. Yep a generalisation, but most convention chicks won't require much game, and a nice guy could easily get with them.
If a nice guy wants a hot, model looking chick (the type he downloads every night) he'll have to approach it differently. Becuase she knows she's hot, everyday people tell her, and her confidence is sky high. She'll likely want a guy with tonnes of confidence too, unlikely a WoW or Anime Convention/cosplayer.
Yeah, obviously some girls like some types of guys, but the dude whining about not being able to get the girl is likely batting out of his league and not projecting enough confidence.
Bad boys have a very good trait, they are confident. And hot chicks love that.
I think the whole "women like jerks" stereotype is a very complex issue that stems from a few different sources. I used to feel like the nice guy who get left in the dust because women went for assholes, until I realized that part of it was my fault and the other part was the type of woman that I was going after. So, to boil the issue down:
1. A lot of guys who describe themselves as "nice guys" are socially awkward and passive to the point of being undesirable. Sure, they can be "nice" in that they're pleasant, generous, compassionate, and kind, but they lack the confidence to round out those qualities and make them a good mate. I used to be in this group, until I realized that I was too wishy-washy and decided to change it.
2. A lot of guys really are "jerks," but can actually seem like really great guys unless you're on the wrong side of them, and a lot of socially-awkward people are really good at getting on other people's bad sides. Plus, a lot of men show only their best sides to women, at least to women they're trying to get with. So, a lot of guys see the dark side of other guys, a side that a woman won't see until quite a way into a relationship. At this point, we have the "I told you so" situation.
3. Some women really do go for jerks, in some ways. More than a few of my exes fall into this category, and I noticed a pattern: Most of these women were fickle, ungrounded, and a bit insane. They would attach to virtually any male who showed affection towards them, but got bored with the guys who weren't forceable enough to keep them around. I was dumped by quite a few women for men who cheated on them, abused them, and generally treated them terribly. I'm not saying that any woman who is abused is asking for it (I don't believe that at all), all I'm saying is that certain women I knew were too fickle to stay with a guy who wouldn't keep them around by force. To this day, I'm not sure what I saw in these women, but each bad relationship was a learning experience, and today I find myself with an amazing woman and we complement each other nicely.
4. Most people simply aren't willing to accept that the problem lies within themself, instead feeling a need to find an external scapegoat. The "women like jerks" argument simultaneously paints us to be the good guy, paints the other guys as villains, paints the woman as stupid for "not knowing a good thing," and completely absolves us of any blame.
So, the "women like jerks" thing stands up sometimes, but other times it's just a lame excuse. There, solved it.
1. A lot of guys who describe themselves as "nice guys" are socially awkward and passive to the point of being undesirable. Sure, they can be "nice" in that they're pleasant, generous, compassionate, and kind, but they lack the confidence to round out those qualities and make them a good mate. I used to be in this group, until I realized that I was too wishy-washy and decided to change it.
2. A lot of guys really are "jerks," but can actually seem like really great guys unless you're on the wrong side of them, and a lot of socially-awkward people are really good at getting on other people's bad sides. Plus, a lot of men show only their best sides to women, at least to women they're trying to get with. So, a lot of guys see the dark side of other guys, a side that a woman won't see until quite a way into a relationship. At this point, we have the "I told you so" situation.
3. Some women really do go for jerks, in some ways. More than a few of my exes fall into this category, and I noticed a pattern: Most of these women were fickle, ungrounded, and a bit insane. They would attach to virtually any male who showed affection towards them, but got bored with the guys who weren't forceable enough to keep them around. I was dumped by quite a few women for men who cheated on them, abused them, and generally treated them terribly. I'm not saying that any woman who is abused is asking for it (I don't believe that at all), all I'm saying is that certain women I knew were too fickle to stay with a guy who wouldn't keep them around by force. To this day, I'm not sure what I saw in these women, but each bad relationship was a learning experience, and today I find myself with an amazing woman and we complement each other nicely.
4. Most people simply aren't willing to accept that the problem lies within themself, instead feeling a need to find an external scapegoat. The "women like jerks" argument simultaneously paints us to be the good guy, paints the other guys as villains, paints the woman as stupid for "not knowing a good thing," and completely absolves us of any blame.
So, the "women like jerks" thing stands up sometimes, but other times it's just a lame excuse. There, solved it.