Do you feel sorry for non gamers?

[Kahunaburger]

I don't think early gaming is sitting on an Odyssey that we somehow haven't heard of. (That said, I'm not even convinced that literary fiction has an Odyssey.) There are excellent writing and/or stories in games -- I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream, Shade, Planescape:Torment, stuff by Tim Schafer, and so on. But in terms of writing, these tend to be on par with good books or short stories, not classics to outlast civilizations.

Then we will be dead by the time that happens even with the Internet at large, dont you said? Or maybe those classics outlasted civilizations because it was the only thing around to read and making good stories makes blood come out of people's nose, so its not surpricing that they were good because people didnt know any better.

Actually, most early epic poems predate literature in the cultures they come from. They're the product of centuries of oral tradition, and were written in a time when most people couldn't read. So with something like the Iliad or the Epic of Gilgamesh, you're not looking at something that was written as a book - you're looking at the end product of centuries of continual refinement. You're also looking at something that later cultures believed was worth reading and worth transcribing and/or translating. Gaming, film, and arguably literary fiction are too young to have produced something like that.

 

[Strain42]

No, should I?

I don't feel sorry for people who don't read or watch movies, I don't feel sorry for people who don't play sports, whittle or make ice sculptures.

Why should I feel sorry for someone just because they don't have a certain hobby?

And if I ever found myself in a conversation with someone who said they felt bad for me because I chose not to play the ME series or Skyrim, I'd think they were a MASSIVE douche and wouldn't want to associate myself with them anyways.

 

[DioWallachia]

Then we will be dead by the time that happens even with the Internet at large, dont you said? Or maybe those classics outlasted civilizations because it was the only thing around to read and making good stories makes blood come out of people's nose, so its not surpricing that they were good because people didnt know any better.

Umm, what? Books have been published in large amount for the last 400 years, it wasn't something rare back in the early 20:th century. Or do you seriously believe that some games can match the works of Orwell, Lovecraft, Dickens, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare etc.? These works are classics because they're that good. There were a lot of books written back then, yet there are those that we remember for a reason. Or do you consider the all the literal minds of the Earth to have everything completly backwards and only liking certain books because it's cool to do so, but they really aren't?

Look, Books have been around for thousands of years, and have been at their top for about the last 150 years. Movies have existed since about 1895 but really reached their top around the 70:s. Gaming is a very young medium, which is why they haven't gotten up to the high standards of books.

No, what i am saying is that people regardless of what era they belong are still the same back then as they are now: lazy and too bloody ignorant to give a fuck about the world at large and their neighbor.
With that in mind its easy (for me) to assume that most epics that lasted for centuries are more easy to just rewrite them over and over, word for word without thinking because "Hey this thing is pretty cool to read. I could write something like it but i am too lazy to do it and there is always some idiot that doesnt want to help on the farming and wants to write this kind of thing. Good for me either way"

Never said that books of poems never existed before the XX century, i just said that if there is already a "good" book out there, then logically the people doesnt need to make another. Its too much work after all and those Babilonian walls arent going to repair themselves, you know?

 

[DioWallachia]

I enjoyed the first two Mass Effects (haven't gotten to the third yet) and can explain that in more detail if you wish, and I haven't played Metal Gear games ever, so I decided not to comment. That's about it, really.

Is it really worth fighting about?

I will answer that with the same reaction i have for those games: "Meh"

And you think the gaming industry is different?

Its going there and that its because.....

You know it, i know it. Soon the 2nd Video Game Crash will ensue and the fact that people are still bitching about things like ME3 ending without making bloody clear what is exactly wrong with that will mean that the developers will give up finally and do businesses blindfolded like when ATARI did when they decided to overproduce the Pacman port and the ET game.

You really have no concept of how a business works, do you?

....because the people in the game industry just know the same as i.... nothing at all. Their decision making seems to be just repeating a formula that worked before and that is it and more so if the film industry is doing it. If there were any REAL developers like say, the people that are capable to do the things listed in these 2 Extra Credits episodes...

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/so-you-want-to-be-a-developer-part-1
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/so-you-want-to-be-a-developer-part-2

....then nobody would question THAT kind of professional who is capable to tell the producers with a straight face and a shitload of statistics that: "You cant pull that BS on the gamers, the numbers said that it will be a disaster"

Why did you choose those 2 examples? District 9 at least i know that tried waaaay too hard on a subject that has been already touched upon, the other one didnt see it all i know is that its an adaptation of a book.

How is that any different from the people who tried the same but failed as well on the gaming medium? What did exactly those 2 examples did? Its isnt just because they wont Oscars right? Or that those 2 are, from a technical standpoint, movies that the people at the Oscars normally dont give 2 fucks about because it isnt about WW2 or about Class or about anything that any Oscar Bait director could try on them but instead they are about Science Fiction, a genre that only now has started to receive acceptance from the old farts? That could be an achievement from a certain point of view, but what about already existing Sci Fi movies that the old fart didnt even ATTEMPT to see? wont those movies deserve some recognition if they were good?

That is one of the many problems of why the movie industry (in my biased opinion at least ) is the LAST place i will like to see a good story receive praise, because its more biased than than EVER and i feel that the old farts are just throwing a bone to the Sci-Fi lovers as a mean to shut them up rather than just admiting that they are really good.

I have never seen anyone go to that much trouble to dig up a goalpost and move it that far. What the hell does your view on the legitimacy of the Oscars have to do with the objective quality of the movies?

Because i fear that some people NEED to be told or convinced that their hobbies or whatever are being evaluated by experts and such. The Oscars question is to know if maybe games would be taken more seriously if they have their own oscar nominations to reasure the gamers that, yes, games with good plot exist and you can all stop sending bombs to Roger Ebert of the "Games are not Art" fiasco, ok?

Up there i mentioned the bias that the people at the Oscars have but i should have keeped it simple by saying that its just the old problem of people being too lazy to check facts that are easily answered like:

Cartoon no longer are dumb and can be enjoyed at any age, Latin America writers do NOT make only novels about Magical Realism, Aquaman no longer sucks since the 70's, the Internet is not a series of tubes, Dan Brown does NOT make anything that remotely resembles research in his books EVER, the capital of Brazil is not Buenos Aires, 42 is the ANSWER to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything but the question is unknown.

Unless we count independent filmaking in that case...........in that case we have to include independent game developers too.

I thought that was assumed. And since when do mainstream studios never turn out good movies? How many movies did you see last year?

None, i didnt care to see and i was kinda busy trying to figure out in my spare time wtf is wrong with Minecraft and collecting footage of Blood Omen 2

In this case, once again, the crap of movies outweight anything good made previously in film history.

And yet the only proof you have thus far offered is two shitty movie franchises. When asked for more, you fuck right off. Meaning you didn't actually think this opinion through.

Oh wait, i said of recent years right? So lets start from 2008 and below with a few exceptions of 2009, not counting the Asylum and Uwe Boll movies, we got from big studios..

Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever
Gigli
Every movie of Seltzer and Friedberg
Basic Instinct 2
Battlefield Earth
88 Minutes
The Brown Bunny
Bratz movie
Children Of The Living Dead
(actually it will be interesting if i manage to hit a movie that isnt well know)
3 Ninjas: High Noon at Mega Mountain
The Adventures of Pluto Nash
Ben and Arthur
Bucky Larson: Born to Be a Star
ALL the Adam Sandler movies
Christmas In Wonderland
Daddy Day Camp
Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo
Who's Your Caddy?
Five Across The Eyes
Gamera: Super Monster
The Garbage Pail Kids Movie
Godzilla's Revenge
Going Overboard
Highlander 2: The Quickening
Highlander: The Source
Hobgoblins
The Hottie and the Nottie
The Howling: New Moon Rising
I Know Who Killed Me:
Jaws: The Revenge
The Last Airbender
Leonard Part 6
Lost Continent
Lower Learning
The Neverending Story III: Escape from Fantasia
Night Junkies
North
The Omega Code
One Missed Call
Robo Vampire
Santa and the Ice Cream Bunny
Santa With Muscles
The Seeker
Sex Lives Of The Potato Men
Sextette
The Starfighters
The Devil Of Blue Mountain
Dirty Love
Exit to Eden
The First Turn-On!
From Justin To Kelly
Super Babies: Baby Geniuses 2
Swept Away
They Saved Hitler's Brain
The Undefeated
Avatar (pretty but overdone)
2012
Bride Wars
10,000 BC
Dragonball Evolution
The Hangover
Funny People (or course)
Ninja Assassin
Birdemic
Driven
Parting Shots
Paul Blart: Mall Cop
The Ugly Truth
D-War
ThanksKilling
All About Steve
The Haunted Mansion

.....sigh....

Get Carter
Death Race (2008)
The Happening
Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
The Riddle
While She Was Out
Seven Pounds
The Spirit
The Unborn (2009)
Ultraviolet
Fat Slags
Street Fighter: The Legend of Chun-Li
The Dork Of The Rings
Pentathlon
Grown Ups
2 Fast 2 Furious
The Deaths of Ian Stone
Lady in the Water
Out of Reach
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Beginning
The Tourist
Night of the Living Dead 3D
Silent Hill (the movie of course)
Spy Kids 3D - Game Over
Good Luck Chuck
Gamer
Stay Alive
Van Helsing
When in Rome


.....oh god. I am going to need a rest. just one more thing to do

Later.

Translation: "Fuck, he's got me. Escape!"

YES!! ESCAPE TO THE ESCAPIST TO RESEARCH MORE OR TO WIKIPEDIA WHERE I CAN RESEARCH WHILE TAKING MY TIME TO DO A COHERENT ANSWER RATHER THAN A RUSHED ONE!!! OR ESCAPE TO THE BED BECAUSE THAT BLOODY LIST UP THERE GOT ME TIRED OF THINKING ALL THAT CRAP THAT I HAVE TO REMIND PEOPLE OFF!! Nevermind the fact that, you know, i am still human and i need, you know, rest

yay -_-

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I like to think that everyone has their own way of gaming, be it electronically or otherwise. Gaming isn't a specific thing after all. Earlier today I saw a bunch of kids on a playground and realized that none of them were likely to know what a Super Nintendo was or, what Legend of Zelda was (the original I mean) in a way that I didn't know what Battlezone (Atari 2600) or, Ninja Golf (Atari 7800) was until very recently.

As for people who straight up aren't into video games there's other games that they likely play or, other means by which they amuse themselves that I wouldn't want anything to do with like actual golf, skiing, etc. It's their loss if they're not into video games but there's more to gaming than consoles.

 

[Kahunaburger]

No, what i am saying is that people regardless of what era they belong are still the same back then as they are now: lazy and too bloody ignorant to give a fuck about the world at large and their neighbor.
With that in mind its easy (for me) to assume that most epics that lasted for centuries are more easy to just rewrite them over and over, word for word without thinking because "Hey this thing is pretty cool to read. I could write something like it but i am too lazy to do it and there is always some idiot that doesnt want to help on the farming and wants to write this kind of thing. Good for me either way"

Never said that books of poems never existed before the XX century, i just said that if there is already a "good" book out there, then logically the people doesnt need to make another. Its too much work after all and those Babilonian walls arent going to repair themselves, you know?

Dude, the reason why epic poems are poems in the first place is because the poetry structure makes them easier to remember and/or improvise (historians differ on the latter). Why are they designed this way? Because the vast majority of people appreciating them and delivering them were illiterate. For most of human history, most storytelling has not been recorded. This means that it was in a continual state of refinement - a particular story could be told any number of ways, depending on who told it and what their cultural values were. You also had people coming up with new stories for the same reason they do that now - sometimes people want to hear something they haven't heard before.

So when we read "epic poems," "myths," and "oral history" we are are in fact reading snapshots of a continually evolving tradition that includes both the original storytelling and the modern interpretation and translation of the work.

So the gaming equivalent of the Iliad would be something like this: hundreds of people work for centuries on refining, say, Dwarf Fortress into the ultimate gameplay experience. The builds people like the most become the standard for the new builds. Spin-offs and expansion packs are created. Thousands of games like this are stored for posterity, and change hands as civilizations rise and fall. If you look at the handful of games from this tradition that are played and studied in 4,500 AD, then you might be able to identify a gaming Iliad.

The oral storytelling equivalent of where gaming is now as a medium would be people sitting around a campfire talking about a really big animal their tribal hero killed. There's nothing wrong with this, but it's important to accept that there might be a difference in depth between traditions that existed for all of human history and traditions that are about 50 years old.

 

[Black Arrow Officer]

My school is a dead zone when it comes to gaming. I only know 5 people who have played Skyrim, and I know a lot of people. Most kids spend their weekends smoking pot and throwing parties where the cops have to interfere, which I honestly want no part of. It's not like I look down on them, it's just a pain when one of my main interests is shared by almost nobody. Thankfully, I found out one of the kids in my auto shop class plays Mass Effect, although he plays on a different platform.

 

[DioWallachia]

I am back. Gonna need a bit of music to endure this and since i know that the other guy is going to read this may as well put some music for all 3:

Cthulhu Saves The World OST - Conflict (Battle Theme)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG0rgvpYUtc

Rise of the Triad (ROTT) - Goin' down the Fast way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX_Kb0cDN98

Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver = Ozar Midrashim by Information Society
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2RMWWBXYbs

Iji - Tor - (Tors theme)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86IxmklUgEM

Battle Moon Wars BGM - Unlimited Blade Works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d66KCh1S5L8

Cave Story OST ~Moonsong~ Extended Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVzC6WZImGY

Irisu Syndrome - Unknown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjmgxvVQlJQ

Eversion - You Can't Escape (World -8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35Pt8hUpOU

Tyrian - Tyrian the song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVZ47z4F0G8

Thunder Force IV - Evil Destroyer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7qjICTsKho

Vinyl Goddess from Mars - Main Theme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfj4hLYLVBM

Chakan : The Forever Man Soundtrack 01 Main Theme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_T-s4h3LhU

Hexen II - Blackmarsh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESLhpWem0g

Mega Turrican - Stage 1-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdY4EKAcW4Q

Arcus Odyssey - Act 6-3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB_yLnRA98U

Michael Jackson's Moonwalker - Smooth Criminal [Genesis] Music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXw_txpn_aM

The Binding Of Isaac OST - Apostate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM4hSCbqjF8&feature=related

Twin Peaks Intro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oDuGN6K3VQ

Evil Genius - pause music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Ln3SSxWYA

Dude, the reason why epic poems are poems in the first place is because the poetry structure makes them easier to remember and/or improvise (historians differ on the latter). Why are they designed this way? Because the vast majority of people appreciating them and delivering them were illiterate. For most of human history, most storytelling has not been recorded. This means that it was in a continual state of refinement - a particular story could be told any number of ways, depending on who told it and what their cultural values were. You also had people coming up with new stories for the same reason they do that now - sometimes people want to hear something they haven't heard before.

So when we read "epic poems," "myths," and "oral history" we are are in fact reading snapshots of a continually evolving tradition that includes both the original storytelling and the modern interpretation and translation of the work.

So the gaming equivalent of the Iliad would be something like this: hundreds of people work for centuries on refining, say, Dwarf Fortress into the ultimate gameplay experience. The builds people like the most become the standard for the new builds. Spin-offs and expansion packs are created. Thousands of games like this are stored for posterity, and change hands as civilizations rise and fall. If you look at the handful of games from this tradition that are played and studied in 4,500 AD, then you might be able to identify a gaming Iliad.

The oral storytelling equivalent of where gaming is now as a medium would be people sitting around a campfire talking about a really big animal their tribal hero killed. There's nothing wrong with this, but it's important to accept that there might be a difference in depth between traditions that existed for all of human history and traditions that are about 50 years old.

So basicaly all stories or epic poems were shitty at first and people just started to refine it during the ages..........so how is that any different from any story from any medium up until now (including games)? if all it takes is for people to take their time to make it better then games like Minecraft would be the equivalent of a epic poem....except that Minecraft as it is its just falls appart in everyway possible and its only thanks to the fans and the mods that keep it alive but by the time

And you cant tell me that "sometimes people want to hear something they haven't heard before" because people ALWAYS go the same structure on a story. See, there is this guy Joseph Campbell who made the book "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" that i will now make a bastadization of what he said there.
He explains that human beings havent change much on the biological level sinse ancient times and now, and for that all the religions, legends, and myths through history are the same story being told diferently over and over because on some deep subcounsious level they NEED these particular stories to inspire them. If you breakdown all the heroic legends you will find that they are all the same, Jesus, Gilgamesh, Aslan, Superman, Harry Potter, Hercules, King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, are all the same guy.

And here comes the part that videogames get fucked over, here is my hypothesis. Thanks to the Internet, alot of artist and game developers (at least the ones that are still trying to make something original) know about this phenomena and try their darnest to give it the finger by making something they believe would make a good story without using the same archetypes. After all, why not?? (they would think) this is a new era so may as well let the people know that you dont need those tropes to be played to actually make a mark for the future, right??................right? WROOOOOOOOOOOOOONG

So not only there is more of the bussiness side of gaming taking over but the people are too dumb to apreciate anything else that its not a surprice that games have to be always the same to succed. Just ask Amy Hennings, she made the ambitious Legacy of Kain series to the walking chiche that its the Uncharted series, who you cant really call a series because every game its just exactly the same but that its what people like and where the money flows. In fact, that a drink from a beer or something for every game that happens to be the best ever just because the protagonist is silent and therefore a blank slate that the players can make their own epic by protecting themselves. Gordon Freeman, the guy from Skyrim, Indiana Jones, Bella Swaan....oh wait, those 2 arent from games but take a guess how successfull they are for being blank slate (they do have more lines than the 2 gaming examples but their function on the movies is absolutely clear in the end that it doesnt matter)

We cant argue anymore (well at least not you but i mean the other guy that is so obviously reading this now) that movies are better than games because movies had a 100+ years start and plus more people decided to give a try to something new and films already surpassed the era where the people only expected silent comedies in the same way that people expected games to be violent simulators and have shitty writing. Instead we should argue of making people realize the potencial of video games and hope they decide to use the best talents available to make the best epic poem in video game form.

 

[Kahunaburger]

So basicaly all stories or epic poems were shitty at first and people just started to refine it during the ages..........so how is that any different from any story from any medium up until now (including games)? if all it takes is for people to take their time to make it better then games like Minecraft would be the equivalent of a epic poem....except that Minecraft as it is its just falls appart in everyway possible and its only thanks to the fans and the mods that keep it alive but by the time

The point is that you don't have centuries of refinement in games. You have, at most, 10-20 years of refinement. So we're not going to wind up with a gaming Iliad in our lifetime, if at all.

And you cant tell me that "sometimes people want to hear something they haven't heard before" because people ALWAYS go the same structure on a story. See, there is this guy Joseph Campbell who made the book "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" that i will now make a bastadization of what he said there.
He explains that human beings havent change much on the biological level sinse ancient times and now, and for that all the religions, legends, and myths through history are the same story being told diferently over and over because on some deep subcounsious level they NEED these particular stories to inspire them. If you breakdown all the heroic legends you will find that they are all the same, Jesus, Gilgamesh, Aslan, Superman, Harry Potter, Hercules, King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, are all the same guy.

I can see you have never read the Epic of Gilgamesh. I'm also unclear how you think this fits into your larger argument.

And here comes the part that videogames get fucked over, here is my hypothesis. Thanks to the Internet, alot of artist and game developers (at least the ones that are still trying to make something original) know about this phenomena and try their darnest to give it the finger by making something they believe would make a good story without using the same archetypes. After all, why not?? (they would think) this is a new era so may as well let the people know that you dont need those tropes to be played to actually make a mark for the future, right??................right? WROOOOOOOOOOOOOONG

I don't think that gaming's problem is that it isn't formulaic enough.

So not only there is more of the bussiness side of gaming taking over but the people are too dumb to apreciate anything else that its not a surprice that games have to be always the same to succed. Just ask Amy Hennings, she made the ambitious Legacy of Kain series to the walking chiche that its the Uncharted series, who you cant really call a series because every game its just exactly the same but that its what people like and where the money flows. In fact, that a drink from a beer or something for every game that happens to be the best ever just because the protagonist is silent and therefore a blank slate that the players can make their own epic by protecting themselves (Gordon Freeman, the guy from Skyrim, Indiana Jones, Bella Swaan....oh wait, those 2 arent from games but take a guess how successfull they are for being blank slate)

Have you seen the Indiana Jones movies?

We cant argue anymore (well at least not you but i mean the other guy that is so obviously reading this now) that movies are better than games because movies had a 100+ years start and plus more people decided to give a try to something new and films already surpassed the era where the people only expected silent comedies in the same way that people expected games to be violent simulators and have shitty writing. Instead we should argue of making people realize the potencial of video games and hope they decide to use the best talents available to make the best epic poem in video game form.

This I actually agree with you on. Just don't hold your breath.

 

[DioWallachia]

The point is that you don't have centuries of refinement in games. You have, at most, 10-20 years of refinement. So we're not going to wind up with a gaming Iliad in our lifetime, if at all.

Here is why i dissagre on the "there is no refinement on games":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6vhiPzOhG4

Have you seen the Indiana Jones movies?

Just ask Mr. Plinket in his Indiana Jones review. Indy its just a hat, not a actual character. He is there for the men in the audience to be proyected into because he is not realistic.

 

[Kahunaburger]

The point is that you don't have centuries of refinement in games. You have, at most, 10-20 years of refinement. So we're not going to wind up with a gaming Iliad in our lifetime, if at all.

Here is why i dissagre on the "there is no refinement on games":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6vhiPzOhG4

There is refinement in games, absolutely. Case in point, the roguelike genre. I'm seriously enjoying what is basically a Rogue variant. There just hasn't been centuries of refinement in games, yet.

There's also the issue that unlike oral tradition, film, and literature, we haven't quite worked out how to tell compelling stories in games (once again, yet.)