You mean keeping you stuck blocking on the other side of the screen or just getting thrown back by it? Ziodyne has such a ludicrous recovery period if you block it, you can run up to her and destroy her because she is the squishiest thing ever.tonyh900 said:I understand with Elizabeth. You don't know how many times I've lost online matches due to my opponent constantly spamming ziodyne(though I have managed to get past it a few times but it ends up the same way after a few seconds).The Wykydtron said:2D. The little of 3D ones i've played is an absolute clusterfuck of particle effects and the camera and spacing of 3D fighting makes it harder to tell if you're hitting or not.
I have played several 2D fighters, UMVC3, BlazBlue, Persona 4 Arena and Skullgirls in the 3D corner is... Soul Caliber 4. Yeah, not the best balance. I will say ring outs are fucking hilarious though. Especially any dive moves that can unintentionally ring out yourself with.
I still love the troll move of winning a round then during the last few seconds of movement, dive headfirst off the stage for no reason.
ArcSys has the 2D mechanics down well, I think Persona 4 Arena has the best balance of mechanics to date. Autocombos cost health and overall do relatively little damage, everyone has a move that relieves pressure but it costs health and spamming it is the fastest way to die (looking at you Shadow Labrys,) the passive Awakening comeback system is as fair as it is genius (I think they're continuing it in Chrono Phantasma with Overdrive) and every character is viable. Except Elisabeth. Elisabeth has some fucking MAJOR flaws.
Also BURSTS! EVERY 2D fighting game needs a Burst mechanic, it makes things way more fun. Seriously, if Skullgirls had a proper Burst instead of this shitty Infinite Protection System it would be really fun. Nobody likes being on the receiving end of 20 second combos, everyone has them and the community has found a way around the IPS so it never procs which ironically only makes touch of death combos worse.
Oh and when the IPS does activate, it's unsafe as fuck and if the guy has a combo that damaging he'll account for it and just block it. So it's not only worthless it's a free reset.
I'm guessing the book would be called " Things Krazykidd taught me about fighting Elizabeth". I will agree that Lizzy is flawed , but she's so much fun.The Wykydtron said:You mean keeping you stuck blocking on the other side of the screen or just getting thrown back by it? Ziodyne has such a ludicrous recovery period if you block it, you can run up to her and destroy her because she is the squishiest thing ever.tonyh900 said:I understand with Elizabeth. You don't know how many times I've lost online matches due to my opponent constantly spamming ziodyne(though I have managed to get past it a few times but it ends up the same way after a few seconds).The Wykydtron said:2D. The little of 3D ones i've played is an absolute clusterfuck of particle effects and the camera and spacing of 3D fighting makes it harder to tell if you're hitting or not.
I have played several 2D fighters, UMVC3, BlazBlue, Persona 4 Arena and Skullgirls in the 3D corner is... Soul Caliber 4. Yeah, not the best balance. I will say ring outs are fucking hilarious though. Especially any dive moves that can unintentionally ring out yourself with.
I still love the troll move of winning a round then during the last few seconds of movement, dive headfirst off the stage for no reason.
ArcSys has the 2D mechanics down well, I think Persona 4 Arena has the best balance of mechanics to date. Autocombos cost health and overall do relatively little damage, everyone has a move that relieves pressure but it costs health and spamming it is the fastest way to die (looking at you Shadow Labrys,) the passive Awakening comeback system is as fair as it is genius (I think they're continuing it in Chrono Phantasma with Overdrive) and every character is viable. Except Elisabeth. Elisabeth has some fucking MAJOR flaws.
Also BURSTS! EVERY 2D fighting game needs a Burst mechanic, it makes things way more fun. Seriously, if Skullgirls had a proper Burst instead of this shitty Infinite Protection System it would be really fun. Nobody likes being on the receiving end of 20 second combos, everyone has them and the community has found a way around the IPS so it never procs which ironically only makes touch of death combos worse.
Oh and when the IPS does activate, it's unsafe as fuck and if the guy has a combo that damaging he'll account for it and just block it. So it's not only worthless it's a free reset.
Stop me if this sounds familiar, you get in range of her, she Shuffle Times you back then throws a Ziodyne to lock you up from fullscreen away. It's the basic keepaway tactic that every single Elisabeth does.
The trick is, the moment you pop up from the knockback, just as the Ziodyne is coming out you perform your instakill. She is now dead. By the second round you should be able to gauge how Ziodyne happy the guy is as well. Ziodyne spam is begging to be lamped by an instakill.
I've played so many games against Elisabeth though, I could write a book on how to deal with everything she has. She's really intimidating if you don't know how to deal with her, with her Persona making her untouchable and high damage combos.
Those are pretty good points. I think you changed my mind. 3D fighters definitely have some neat qualities.The Apple BOOM said:The biggest problem with 3D fighters is that they pretty much don't exist. Tekken and DoA are pretty much 2D fighters with a bit of the z axis thrown in for funsies. Soulcalibur is the only true 3D fighter I can think of, and I love the current iteration. It's one of the few games where the entire cast is viable for tournament play. Even Dampierre can get you into top 8, although you would still have an uphill battle against a pro who's using Patroklos or Mitsurugi.
The thing that draws me to 3D fighters is the heightened complexity. For one, you can dodge moves with side stepping. Ring outs and wall combos, which are more deadly than corner combos, make it so you need spatial awareness of the stage. The severe lack of block strings makes it so you need to think out most of your attacks, instead of just spamming while your opponent holds down and back. The biggest part, by far, though, is that the moves are slower. That means that man of them are reactable, with the fastest moves being 10 frames out of 60, instead of the completely unreactable 2 or 4 frame moves most 2D's have. This actually makes the game faster, as you're thinking out every move instead waiting out a half second long block string or shrugging off those unreactable moves where even if they're punishable, they're so stupid fast you can't get the punish in.
garjian said:As much as I respect 2D fighters, I find them remarkably boring. With only crouching block, standing block and spacing (and I guess throw teching), having to cover everything, offensive options feel limited in comparison to 3D fighters and in turn defending feels even worse (Marvel being the exception that proves the rule as, with it's offensive focus, the most effective defense is simply to attack first).
2D offence and defense are not as simple as you guys make it sound.The Apple BOOM said:The severe lack of block strings makes it so you need to think out most of your attacks, instead of just spamming while your opponent holds down and back.
That's not true at all! More options for defense allows for attacks to give advantage on block, their weakness being to stepping for example, but the act of doing so opens you up to different forms of attacks, horizontals.Razentsu said:Momentum in 3D fighters is more easily stopped because moves tend to be disadvantageous on block and moves are slow to start up. Often times, blocking an attack in a 3D fighter diffuses an offense, while blocking an attack in a 2D fighter starts the attacker's offense.
Even in SF4, a 2D fighter with very limited defensive options, has plenty of moves that give the attacker frame advantage. Just because you have more defensive options does not necessarily mean you will have more frame advantage on your moves.garjian said:Razentsu said:Momentum in 3D fighters is more easily stopped because moves tend to be disadvantageous on block and moves are slow to start up. Often times, blocking an attack in a 3D fighter diffuses an offense, while blocking an attack in a 2D fighter starts the attacker's offense.
That's not true at all! More options for defense allows for attacks to give advantage on block, their weakness being to stepping for example, but the act of doing so opens you up to different forms of attacks, horizontals.
I know of Viola and I have seen some Viola play. I do not doubt she is a great offensive character, but as formidable as her offense is, I doubt it's as oppressive as something like this:But besides any of that, have you never heard of Viola... from SCV? The goddess of pressure I tells ya.
Pressure is almost my entire game in Soulcalibur. Across all fighters, I'm much weaker at defending than attacking, and it shows in the characters that I use and way in which I fight (and the games that I play). I'm attacking far, far more often than I'm not, and I'm able to do that very successfully.
I know first hand that momentum is not easy to stop in 3D fighters, certainly not in Soulcalibur, and I barely see it in 2D fighters myself beyond doing a few jabs and wakeup mixups.