Does anyone even know what Steam Machines are?

[TomWiley]

It's a hardware gimmick, that's what it is. The reason why you can't distinguish between a PC and s Steambox is because there is no difference, other than name.

 

[BrotherRool]

SteamBoxes are in my mind a simple toolkit that allows multiple companies access to the console market. It's not really about valve, sure they provide the service, OS, and most importantly the games, but it's a more grand idea in the sense that you can now have consoles that are not proprietary to one manufacturer.

It isn't about bridging the gap between PC Gaming and Consoles, if anything whatever happens there is more unintended. It's real function I see is bridging the gap between consoles and every other piece of home entertainment device.

You want a TV? A Blu-ray player? A Digital Streaming Device? How about a Surround Sound System? You have hundreds of manufacturers to choose from! How about a video game console? Well... uhhh... there's about 3 choices, Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft.

Now with SteamOS as an option, ANY manufacturer can produce their own console and release it, all with access to the same library of games, so no longer are you having competition between game exclusivity (which is on it's way out anyway) or hardware monopolizing, you can buy a SteamBox from YOUR preferred manufacturer with all the bells and whistles you personally want, and none you don't.

SteamBox is a home console, but it's more about Valve offering an open platform for manufacturers, not trying to "compete" in the console market, but giving us another option. Sure they'll be getting a huge slice of the pie since they reap the royalties of every software sale, but it's the manufacturers who will now have a chance of competing, but this early in the Steambox's life it'll mostly be competing with itself.

It's not even that, any PC running Windows right now can do everything a Steam Box can do plus more. A steam box can only play about 80% of all games on Steam if you already have a PC that does all the hardware crunching in another room for you. With a 'PC' you can hook it up to your television and play 100% of the games on Steam with no other requirements. Want it to be a device for the living room? It already is! Want to use a controller? It already can (Steam Controllers even work on PC running windows). Want a Steam interface that works with a controller? Big picture mode has done that for years too.

There's literally nothing a Steam Console can do that a 'PC console' couldn't already do. You don't have to pay licensing royalties to games running on Windows either. When people have asked Valve employees what a Steam Box does they've replied 'it allows us to start Steam on boot-up'

...which is okay I guess? And all it saves hardware manufacturers is having to pay $50-$150 dollars licensing windows. But in return you get a console which can also do everything a PC can do, as opposed to a console that can kind of do some things a PC can do (including only kind of play games)


I guess the hardware manufacturers are basically just trying to gain profit from the advertising Valve might bring to them. Valve are also hoping the games will run slightly better than on Windows, but that's only going to be true when you don't have to stream them from a Windows PC anyway

 

[Smooth Operator]

Simply put right now they are "not officially released".
This is why Valve likes to keep things to themselves, because they take their sweet ass time to put something together while everyone is freaking out, barking and scratching at their doors for the next bone to be thrown out.
And right now custom PC salesmen are loving it because they can sneak in their boxes under that Steambox banner without anyone having oversight what is actually sold.

But once Valve actually makes their complete package I expect they will have categorized plug and play PCs, which adept PC gamers really don't need but those only really range in the 20%, while everyone else is just scared to even tackle the mountain of information that comes with PC gaming.

 

[Mothhive]

It's not even that, any PC running Windows right now can do everything a Steam Box can do plus more. A steam box can only play about 80% of all games on Steam if you already have a PC that does all the hardware crunching in another room for you. With a 'PC' you can hook it up to your television and play 100% of the games on Steam with no other requirements. Want it to be a device for the living room? It already is! Want to use a controller? It already can (Steam Controllers even work on PC running windows). Want a Steam interface that works with a controller? Big picture mode has done that for years too.

There's literally nothing a Steam Console can do that a 'PC console' couldn't already do. You don't have to pay licensing royalties to games running on Windows either. When people have asked Valve employees what a Steam Box does they've replied 'it allows us to start Steam on boot-up'

...which is okay I guess? And all it saves hardware manufacturers is having to pay $50-$150 dollars licensing windows. But in return you get a console which can also do everything a PC can do, as opposed to a console that can kind of do some things a PC can do (including only kind of play games)


I guess the hardware manufacturers are basically just trying to gain profit from the advertising Valve might bring to them. Valve are also hoping the games will run slightly better than on Windows, but that's only going to be true when you don't have to stream them from a Windows PC anyway

The thing you're missing is that this isn't aimed at people who have PCs already, or who feel comfortable gaming on PCs, it's for people who want a system as easy to use as a console, but with all the benefits of PC gaming like the large library of games and exclusives (even excluding Windows only ones), mods, cheap prices, etc.

 

[BoredAussieGamer]

Truth be told, I don't think the makers of these things even know what a Steam Machine is yet. They're experimenting with a new concept in it's infancy, but they don't know who or what it's target audience should be.

So to answer the title's question, I dunno.

 

[barbzilla]

snip

Yes, I've seen the launch libraries, however I can't go out and build my own XBone or PS4 for cheaper than they are selling me one (at least not without a few degrees in software engineering and hardware engineering), but that is besides the point. Also, unless you want to pay Valve for the right to call your machine a Steambox/Steammachine/Steamdohicky, you just have a PC with SteamOS running (which is free). I have no qualms with the SteamOS, in fact I encourage it and really would like to see it succeed so that I don't have to rely on Windows for gaming any longer, however the Steammachine is a $500+ (and some prices are waaaayyyyyy on the plus side) for a PC that runs a free OS and has a controller. 90% of the Steammachines announced thus far I can build cheaper and still run SteamOS and buy a controller (and often a Monitor or TV) without going near their prices, furthermore some of them aren't even upgradable so you will end up having to throw them out when hardware evolves as it always does.

As for the Game Library, how does Steambox encourage software developers to make games for Linux? It doesn't make it any easier, and it certainly doesn't change the fact that most people will still be running Windows (not to mention Microsoft is one of those developers). Had Valve chosen a single set of hardware to call a Steambox and written custom Drivers just for those pieces of hardware, then Software devs could have utilized proper utilization to enhance their games way beyond what a Windows machine would be capable of.... However, that isn't the route Valve went. Instead they have elected to take Microsoft head on in an Operating system battle, and MSFT has been established in the gaming community since the 90s (and before if you count DoS as part of MSFT).

So yes, I fail to see how this box accomplishes anything that Valve said they set out to do.

Ish, it will also allow you to run any non steam programs/games that have a suitible linux version. You are also free to use any controller that you can connect and get drivers for (and dirivers will likely appear for msot things even if only quasi officially)

No, I didn't discount them running Linux software, just that it wouldn't be able to run any games that didn't come prepackaged for Linux in the first place (and that would also include other software). I think you may be mistaking my discussion for the SteamBox as me discussing SteamOS. As I said earlier, SteamOS is great, it is their wannabe console I have issues with.

Or more games get written to use alternatives to directx (opengl springs to mind). SteamOS won't just have to rely on its own market to provide market share to persudade people to provide non-windows version, the biggest barrier is directx. Start coding in opengl for example and you get the mac and linux markets, and it will still work on windows, who in gaming terms are unplumbed becasue of directx, it not like they tend to be substantially differnt machines anymore.

The problem is OpenGL isn't as powerful as DirectX is (though they have moved forward leaps and bounds in the past couple years, so that issue may soon be solved if they can tweak the optimization settings some). Once again though, I'm not against SteamOS, in fact I love the concept of it. I think Valve should drop the Steammachine and just focus on the SteamOS and getting that right (or if they absolutely have to keep the Steammachine, drop all of them except for the iBuyPower one for $500 and standardize the hardware for developers to actually have a reason to develop for it).

Almost self defeating point here. Largely the biggest difference between a linux desktop/laptop, a mac desktop/laptop and a windows one is the OS, parts wise they are largely identical, the amount of hardware variation you'd bring in is minimal (the linux parts are pretty much all 'PC' parts and the mac parts differ little, and due to the hardware nature of macs those that arent effectively identical ad so little variation as to be negligable).

Once again, I think you completely missed my point (or misread my paragraph). The differences between computers don't matter. My point was that PS4 and XBone can get the hardware out for below the cost to build it (I.E. cheaper than it is possible for you or I to build one, even if we didn't have to worry about the software). This is why they often take a loss on their Consoles for the first 2-4 years they are around. Meanwhile, I can go build a PC with the same parts as any of the currently announced Steamboxes for less money than they are selling them for (including a copy of windows to put on a dual partition). That means, I can build an equivalent piece of hardware that will have 100% of the same functionality (and some extra, since I'll be able to dual boot Windows and play all of the games out there) for less money... So, why wouldn't I? The only reason to buy one is if you don't know anything about PCs, and if that is the case, they probably don't know that SteamOS being Linux means they won't be able to play all of the PC games that are coming out (or are already out), and I can pretty much guarantee that there will never be a point where all games are Linux compatible (since MSFT owns Windows, Xbox, and DirectX). So now we are dealing with the concept that Steambox basically tricks users into buying a PC with limited functionality compared to just buying one from a shop somewhere. So as you see, it doesn't matter than Linux, Windows, and Mac use the same parts since that is the very reason that they can't afford to be so over priced.

Large parts of the PC gaming market would happily jump ship from windows (mostly to linux based solutions, though those who have a mac for work purposes wtc would love to drop windows boots for games) if the market would let them. SteamOS therfore has to only nudge open the door before it gets swept along.

Once again, you mistake my dislike of the Steambox for the SteamOS. I will say it yet again... I love SteamOS, and I loath SteamBox. Hopefully that clears that up.

What it is is Valve saying we want people to chose a PC gaming solution that suits them. If we set up a scheme to identify possible solutions, and support companies that want to offer them, then thatb will work better than attempting a one size fits all fudge.

Except that is essentially no different than what we already have on the market. So they haven't found a new place, they are just selling Valve stamped Personal Computers, that is it. They haven't created the hybrid console/PC people thought they were going to do (and basically billed it as), they didn't break the mold, and they aren't even breaking any new ground since there are already gaming oriented Linux Distributions that can run Steam (and in Windows on top of that, so they are technically better currently). If they aren't innovating at all, what is the point of this whole venture. They have already redesigned the controller to be more like a hybrid Xbox/PlayStation controller and ditched the modern we want to change how you do things controller (though in all fairness, that is probably for the best).

It's biggest problem is getting over the message that its not supposed to be a one size fits all restricted thing.

If you know what it is supposed to be, then please tell me what the Steambox does that makes it unique, cost effective, powerful, or even makes it matter, in this current gaming generation? It is nothing more than the sum of its parts, and its parts are PC with a Linux OS. I can take those same parts and build a SteamOS computer of my own, I own my own business, so what is stopping me from making a Steambox too? If the answer is nothing but some money, then that is where the issue is with Steambox.

It's a hardware gimmick, that's what it is. The reason why you can't distinguish between a PC and s Steambox is because there is no difference, other than name.

This gentleman here gets it. It is nothing more than an overpriced PC with a different sticker on it and a free OS instead of a paid one.

 

[barbzilla]

The thing you're missing is that this isn't aimed at people who have PCs already, or who feel comfortable gaming on PCs, it's for people who want a system as easy to use as a console, but with all the benefits of PC gaming like the large library of games and exclusives (even excluding Windows only ones), mods, cheap prices, etc.

Except that those people will not know what they are getting in to. They likely expect that they will be able to access all of the PC games like they did with their console of choice (though they likely understand the lack of backwards compatibility at this point). So they won't understand why their (up to) $12,000 machine refuses to play the latest greatest Call of Duty game, and the short answer is, because it doesn't have Windows. So now they have to hire someone to install windows on a Dual Boot partition so they can play all of the games available to them or learn how to work on PC's themselves, and at this point they may as well have gone ahead and learnt enough about PCs to get a decent one to start with that didn't cost them an arm and a leg. The flip side is, you will have someone with a $500 Steambox that can play Limbo, Machinarium, and Trine (don't get me wrong, those are all great games, but that is a waste of money).

Either way you look at it, you are wasting money over getting what you really wanted in the first place, and that is a PC that can do all of the above, while costing less than $600 (if you don't include monitor and just hook it up to your Tele).

 

[bliebblob]

Welp, I don't. That's for sure.

Here's the story so far through my eyes: a reasonably tech-savvy guy, but not quite on the build-my-own-pc level.

Once upon a time, father Gaben made a list of everything good little gamers want. Some of it we already knew we wanted. Like cheaper pc's and better performance. But other things we hadn't really thought of yet, like an alternative to windows or streaming to our tv's.

Satisfied, father Gaben sent his list to the christmas elf workshop third party hardware manufacturers and spoke: "Quickly my little helpers, make me boxes that can do everything on this list! And we shall call them... Steamboxes!"

So the elves hardware manufacturers gathered their greatest minds and discussed for many a night how to realize father Gaben's dream. After weeks of debate however, no true solution was found. Thus it was decided to have each crew design their own steambox. So that upon father Gaben's return, they would present dozens upon dozens of different steamboxes. Surely at least one of those would be the steambox father Gaben envisioned?

Unfortunately every crew pretty much just built the same pc they always do and installed steamOS and a steam controller on it.

The end... of act I.

 

[Milanezi]

Think of it as: it's a generic videogame that runs Steam's own OS, so you can also say it's a computer that's only good for games from the Steam Library. There are/will be many different "boxes" by many different manufacturers and also various degrees of capacity. So, maybe my Steam Machine is good to run most games on a medium quality, but you bought the top notch Steam Box that can run everything available right now with max quality, this other dude though bought a really cheap Steam Box because he's only into indie games; and I hope some of those might be upgradable even...

After reading all that you can see why there have been complaints about the price. It can't be overly expensive or the consumer will just build a good old PC...

 

[barbzilla]

Think of it as: it's a generic videogame that runs Steam's own OS, so you can also say it's a computer that's only good for games from the Steam Library. There are/will be many different "boxes" by many different manufacturers and also various degrees of capacity. So, maybe my Steam Machine is good to run most games on a medium quality, but you bought the top notch Steam Box that can run everything available right now with max quality, this other dude though bought a really cheap Steam Box because he's only into indie games; and I hope some of those might be upgradable even...

After reading all that you can see why there have been complaints about the price. It can't be overly expensive or the consumer will just build a good old PC...

The bad part is, it won't have access to every game on Steam, only the Linux ready games (which are only around 15% of all the games on Steam). If it had access (or manages to finishing having access) to all of the games on the Steam Library inside SteamOS, I will stop complaining so much (though I'll still complain a little about the price and the fact you can build a nice PC for that price).

 

[Milanezi]

...

The bad part is, it won't have access to every game on Steam, only the Linux ready games (which are only around 15% of all the games on Steam). If it had access (or manages to finishing having access) to all of the games on the Steam Library inside SteamOS, I will stop complaining so much (though I'll still complain a little about the price and the fact you can build a nice PC for that price).

WHAT?!!! I didn't know that! So if I bought one I wouldn't be able to play, say, The Witcher? Damn...

 

[TehCookie]

I agree their messaging really isn't that clear to be people who might not be into PC gaming like some of us are. In my opinion, having multiple manufacturers is going to confuse the market even more.

They should have found a hardware partner, and made a dedicated Steam "machine" instead of 20 different models.

Or at least have designated budget, low, medium, high or whatever level of specs. I thought it was suppose to make PC gaming accessible, but they're making a bigger mess of it.

It would of been nice to have the Steam machine be a list of compatible components where you can pick how much power you want and it would make for easy upgrades. Even if I hated SteamOS and got put windows on it I'd be glad not to have to bother trying to figure out if x works with y or what will (or bothering my friends about it).

 

[barbzilla]

...

The bad part is, it won't have access to every game on Steam, only the Linux ready games (which are only around 15% of all the games on Steam). If it had access (or manages to finishing having access) to all of the games on the Steam Library inside SteamOS, I will stop complaining so much (though I'll still complain a little about the price and the fact you can build a nice PC for that price).

WHAT?!!! I didn't know that! So if I bought one I wouldn't be able to play, say, The Witcher? Damn...

Yep, you can only play the games that have Linux installers. I'm not sure about The Witcher specifically, but there are a lot of big name releases that aren't covered under that clause.

 

[ForumSafari]

Here is the thing, unless they fix the SteamOS to be able to run Windows only DX9-11 games, there really isn't going to be much of a market for it.

I agree with your overall sentiment but this made me wince slightly, you didn't mean it like this but there's too much of a perception that Linux not being like Windows is a Linux bug rather than an application developer issue. The fact is Steam OS is perfectly functional for what it's supposed to do, it just needs more software porting for it.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Get a good gaming rig and understand how the parts work. The steam machines don't run windows and will not run all steam games.

 

[barbzilla]

Here is the thing, unless they fix the SteamOS to be able to run Windows only DX9-11 games, there really isn't going to be much of a market for it.

I agree with your overall sentiment but this made me wince slightly, you didn't mean it like this but there's too much of a perception that Linux not being like Windows is a Linux bug rather than an application developer issue. The fact is Steam OS is perfectly functional for what it's supposed to do, it just needs more software porting for it.

Very correct, by fixed I mean a decent emulation program inside of Steam and SteamOS to run Windows based games on a Linux Distribution (at least until we start seeing the Devs really push for Linux compatibility).

 

[kasperbbs]

Just a PC with Steam OS in it, i really don't know what else to say.

 

[ForumSafari]

Very correct, by fixed I mean a decent emulation program inside of Steam and SteamOS to run Windows based games on a Linux Distribution (at least until we start seeing the Devs really push for Linux compatibility).

It's tricky isn't it? The problem is that WINE and other compatibility layers exist but they're not perfect and publishers don't use them as a temporary transition, instead seeming to stick with them permanently.

The good news is you can probably do it yourself if you have a spare Windows install, setting up PCI passthrough for a VM should preserve most of the performance.

 

[barbzilla]

Very correct, by fixed I mean a decent emulation program inside of Steam and SteamOS to run Windows based games on a Linux Distribution (at least until we start seeing the Devs really push for Linux compatibility).

It's tricky isn't it? The problem is that WINE and other compatibility layers exist but they're not perfect and publishers don't use them as a temporary transition, instead seeming to stick with them permanently.

The good news is you can probably do it yourself if you have a spare Windows install, setting up PCI passthrough for a VM should preserve most of the performance.

I agree, I would just run a dual partition and keep Windows on one and SteamOS on the other (exactly like I have my PC set up now). However, if you are able to do that, you likely aren't buying a Steambox unless you are just curious. You are buying a Steambox because you don't know much about computers, and can't build one yourself, so you thought it would be a good idea... Only to find out that SteamOS doesn't support a ton of games.

However if Steam had its own built in Windows Emulator (that didn't suck as much as WINE does), it would alleviate that issue and calm me down on at least one aspect of the Steambox.