Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

Zeckt

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I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.
 

Devilot

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erttheking said:
Devilot said:
I find it really funny, that only 2 reviews so far have given the game average scores. And both reviews state that part of the reason is how the game depicted women...

I dont really care, since the game is selling like hotcakes and VW is an incredibly talented developer, but I always thought of the escapist as an objective and serious game site...
I don't really think that you can be objective when it comes to video games.
You can be more objective than you think, case in point you may not like the art style in dragon's crown, but you cant deny its good art. Same can be said for the gameplay that the reviewer says its "repetitive" well...its a sidescroller beat-em up...certain genres have certain expectations lined up, otherwise all fps would get a "its too repetitive, all you do is shoot your gun"...

My main gripe here is that I Feel the review is heavily biased towards the art design and the reviewer's dislike of it. I'm not angry or anything, just dissapointed because I always thought the escapist was beyond petty controversies...
 

Erttheking

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Devilot said:
erttheking said:
Devilot said:
I find it really funny, that only 2 reviews so far have given the game average scores. And both reviews state that part of the reason is how the game depicted women...

I dont really care, since the game is selling like hotcakes and VW is an incredibly talented developer, but I always thought of the escapist as an objective and serious game site...
I don't really think that you can be objective when it comes to video games.
You can be more objective than you think, case in point you may not like the art style in dragon's crown, but you cant deny its good art. Same can be said for the gameplay that the reviewer says its "repetitive" well...its a sidescroller beat-em up...certain genres have certain expectations lined up, otherwise all fps would get a "its too repetitive, all you do is shoot your gun"...

My main gripe here is that I Feel the review is heavily biased towards the art design and the reviewer's dislike of it. I'm not angry or anything, just dissapointed because I always thought the escapist was beyond petty controversies...
Actually, yes I can deny that it's good art. It's your opinion that it's good art, I personally think that the art doesn't look good at all, the proportions are all over the place and I'm not just talking about the breasts, the size of the head of that guy in giant armor is way too small.
 

Erttheking

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Zeckt said:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.
The score reflects how much the reviewer liked the game. If the characters made the game less enjoyable for him, then the score would naturally suffer. The same goes with drugs and prostitutes in GTA, if in made the game less enjoyable it would warrant a lower score. But is that really an apt comparison? The characters are constantly on the screen in this game, while the amounts of prostitutes and drugs in GTA are minimal. It's more about guns and car on car carnage.
 

Weaver

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Nasrin, I hope one day you start an ASMR channel on youtube. Your voice is excellent for it.
 

Joriss

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Ever since Scott Pilgrim the video game, every next side-scrolling beat'em up feels like a slight disappointment...
 

Scarim Coral

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I like the new pro/con feature. Shame I don' have the console to played it as I did liked Vanillaware other game Muramasa: The Demon Blade and I do enjoyed a good beat them up game.
 

Baresark

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I am amped to play this game. I'm looking very forward to this game. Too bad I'm stuck waiting till the 6th to pick it up. I can't wait to see how it stacks up to Muramasa, that game was epic, and this is looking awesome as well. Keep 'em coming Vanillaware... I also would love an HD version of Odinsphere!
 

Denamic

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Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
 

DugMachine

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Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
 
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DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
Actually, it's not a power fantasy to me. Nor the legions of people I spend most of my days with as a trainer. Or as someone who likes going to the gym. People want to get those muscles because they think it looks good. Or even sometimes, because they think it will help them in whatever sport or area of life they think they need strength for.

And I don't get that giant boobs isn't a power fantasy for women. I know probably... 13 women who went under the knife. Is it not a power fantasy for them? Some went to make themselves happy with their body, some wanted to get more sexual attention, whatever the reason there are just as many women who want big breasts as there are men who want big muscles. Why is one a power fantasy, and why is one excused because men say big breasts are good?

A lot of women like my body, so I would think someone who doesn't have my body would think big muscles are good. Is it a power fantasy then, or is he just responding what he feels women key into?

I'm not really trying to put this on you, but I'm so confused with the 'power fantasy' idea. I might make a thread over it.
 

Erttheking

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ObsidianJones said:
DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
Actually, it's not a power fantasy to me. Nor the legions of people I spend most of my days with as a trainer. Or as someone who likes going to the gym. People want to get those muscles because they think it looks good. Or even sometimes, because they think it will help them in whatever sport or area of life they think they need strength for.

And I don't get that giant boobs isn't a power fantasy for women. I know probably... 13 women who went under the knife. Is it not a power fantasy for them? Some went to make themselves happy with their body, some wanted to get more sexual attention, whatever the reason there are just as many women who want big breasts as there are men who want big muscles. Why is one a power fantasy, and why is one excused because men say big breasts a good?

A lot of women like my body, so I would think someone who doesn't have my body would think big muscles are good. Is it a power fantasy then, or is he just responding what he feels women key into.

I'm not really trying to put this on you, but I'm so confused with the 'power fantasy' idea. I might make a thread over it.
Yeah they might have, but let me ask you a question. Did they go under the knife so that they would feel more powerful, or so that men would think that they were more attractive? I don't know them personally, I can't say for sure, but I'm going to lean towards the latter.

And actually I've talked to a lot of women on this website, and they say that they like a little muscle on men, but they find big bulging body builder types to be rather unpleasant to look at. They find the idea that all women like big muscular men to be an annoying stereotype. Some do, but not all of them. Come to think of it, I never really liked how the sorceress looked in this game because her anatomy is just, well, impossible. Seriously, how can she stand up straight?
 

DugMachine

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ObsidianJones said:
My train of thought is that while there are women who want bigger breasts out there, breasts themselves don't empower you in any way physically. Muscles though make you stronger, more resilient. You look tough and like you've put a lot of work into building those muscles. With said muscles, in a fantasy setting, you can fight anyone and anything.

Some women find really muscular men attractive, no denying that but I'd bet money that when the developers were designing characters they were not thinking of them. I see where you're coming from but I just don't see muscular male characters designed with female's fetishes in mind.
 

Denamic

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DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
Sure, every man dreams of a beard as magnificent as that of a Dwarf, but this argument doesn't really carry any weight as it can be twisted any way you like. Essentially naked woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked muscular woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked woman with small breasts? Still male sex fantasy. As long as the woman's showing skin, it's almost always a 'male sex fantasy'. Hell, as long as there's tits and she's pretty, it's a male sex fantasy. And sure, that may well be the case. I don't really care either way, as none of that has any bearing of how I view actual women. My point is no one bats an eye no matter how the males are portrayed. Slim, muscular, weak, strong, clothed, naked, wherever. Even the most obvious half-naked bishounen fanservice is utterly ignored.

Again, I don't actually care about how either sex is portrayed. What annoys me is the double standards involved with the complaining about these kinds of things.
 

WindKnight

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Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
 

Denamic

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Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
Ironically, I find what you just said sexist. Muscles = strength, yes. But in no way does that inherently convey honour nor bravery. These are projected values. And sure, let's go with a fetishised female character. There may be tits and ass, but in a game like this, where female characters are as strong and brave as any male character, you'd still say they convey no strength, courage or honour just because their secondary sex characteristics are exaggerated? Okay.
 

Erttheking

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Denamic said:
DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
Sure, every man dreams of a beard as magnificent as that of a Dwarf, but this argument doesn't really carry any weight as it can be twisted any way you like. Essentially naked woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked muscular woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked woman with small breasts? Still male sex fantasy. As long as the woman's showing skin, it's almost always a 'male sex fantasy'. Hell, as long as there's tits and she's pretty, it's a male sex fantasy. And sure, that may well be the case. I don't really care either way, as none of that has any bearing of how I view actual women. My point is no one bats an eye no matter how the males are portrayed. Slim, muscular, weak, strong, clothed, naked, wherever. Even the most obvious half-naked bishounen fanservice is utterly ignored.

Again, I don't actually care about how either sex is portrayed. What annoys me is the double standards involved with the complaining about these kinds of things.
You're missing the point. The problem isn't with women showing a little bit of skin, the problem is that, more often than not, the amount of fan service is so over the top it completely breaks the immersion for a lot of people. I'm getting tired of stories were I'm supposed to take things seriously, yet at the same time there's a woman with her tits hanging out. I'm ok with a woman looking sexy, so long as she actually looks like and dresses like how an actual Human would on the battlefield.

And the main reason why people don't get on shirtless men is because, A. compared to women, men don't have it that bad and B. 9 times out of 10, video games are about empowerment, mowing down hundreds of men at once, defeating entire armies, the muscles are the cherry on top. And to be honest, people do get on some examples of it. I lost track of how many times people made fun of the characters in Gears of War.
 

-Axle-

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I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?
 

Denamic

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-Axle- said:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?
Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to say. Only this guy did it gooder than me with less words and shit.