Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

[-Axle-]

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.

No, that's not the case. If a woman designed the characters for this game, that wouldn't change my opinion. They still look stupid.

Your opinion is not what I'm debating, its the argument that its a negative portrayal of the female form.

People have used the premise that women showing only "tits n ass" are worthless, empty, shallow, etc. when judged solely by their presentation. Where as, an overly muscular man is dismissed as a negative portrayal because it can be perceived as a power fantasy by men.

At the end of the day, you're left with two judgements made on the same basis (physical traits) and people seem to want to encourage that one is okay and the other isn't. Its inconsistent reasoning with a very subtle consequence that I don't see discussed as much as I'd like to see.

 

[WindKnight]

n of any kind.[/quote]

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.

Not really. I'm saying a woman has a right to chose how she dresses and how she carries herself.

When it comes to artwork, games, comics etc, the woman in question did not chose her personality, attire or pose the artist did. I'm not judging a woman on what she chose - I'm judging an artist on what they wanted to portray in their art.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

A thread on the escapist about Dragon's Crown? I wonder how many pages of back-and-forth arguing this will drag on for without actually discussing the game itself instead of prattling on about the art style, human anatomy, and proportions.

Anyway, I'm glad that this is finally on the verge of releasing. I've heard some great things so far about the gameplay and amount of content available. It's been a long time since I've had the chance to play a proper beat 'em up with friends. Just wish the PS3 version weren't so pricey, but eh what can ya do.

Oh, and the art style looks pretty good to me!

 

[WindKnight]

My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.

You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.

I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?

 

[Zeckt]

I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.

The score reflects how much the reviewer liked the game. If the characters made the game less enjoyable for him, then the score would naturally suffer. The same goes with drugs and prostitutes in GTA, if in made the game less enjoyable it would warrant a lower score. But is that really an apt comparison? The characters are constantly on the screen in this game, while the amounts of prostitutes and drugs in GTA are minimal. It's more about guns and car on car carnage.

Fair enough. I can respect that, but I will take the rpgfan and rpgamer reviews more seriously as they specialize in these sort of games and are very trustable sources. Both of those sites I've browsed for over 10 years and I mean this in the nicest way possible but I feel did a better job and were more fair on the game. I'm not trying to insult the reviewer here, I'm just giving constructive feedback.

I get kind of nervous reading reviews where something as simple as a visual art style impacts their decision too much. It's like the games meat and potatoes are actually quite delicious, but the person eating them is angry because of mushrooms in the gravy.

That made me hungry.

 

[Erttheking]

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.

No, that's not the case. If a woman designed the characters for this game, that wouldn't change my opinion. They still look stupid.

Your opinion is not what I'm debating, its the argument that its a negative portrayal of the female form.

People have used the premise that women showing only "tits n ass" are worthless, empty, shallow, etc. when judged solely by their presentation. Where as, an overly muscular man is dismissed as a negative portrayal because it can be perceived as a power fantasy by men.

At the end of the day, you're left with two judgements made on the same basis (physical traits) and people seem to want to encourage that one is okay and the other isn't. Its inconsistent reasoning with a very subtle consequence that I don't see discussed as much as I'd like to see.

You seem to be under the impression that giant musclar men are sexist, and I frankly just don't see the connection. They're not the best characters, more often than not I find them kind of bland, but it just doesn't have the same sexist impact as sexualized women. If you go around and ask men what they feel about a big musclar men as characters and ask women what they feel about women with big breasts as characters, you're going to be getting a lot more eye rolls from women than men.

 

[Denamic]

My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.

You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.

I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?

That's irrelevant. There's no text or message to be read here. They probably drew tits because tits. The worrying part is that you somehow derived a message that woman are decorations to be draped over men or scenery and nothing else from a superficial and cursory analysis of their appearance. None of that is implied anywhere. That's purely your own projections, which is the part I was hoping you'd realize on your own. Though I doubt you will even after I've pointed it out, seeing that you've already ignored -Axle- when he pointed out something similar to you.

 

[Slycne]

I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Spoiler: This wasn't what gave her pause.

Spoiler: This was.

 

[Erttheking]

I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Spoiler: This wasn't what gave her pause.

Spoiler: This was.

Wait what? OH COME ON! That seriously happened in game? We can do better than that! Seriously!

 

[Tanis]

Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.

 

[WindKnight]

My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.

You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.

I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?

That's irrelevant. There's no text or message to be read here. They probably drew tits because tits. The worrying part is that you somehow derived a message that woman are decorations to be draped over men or scenery and nothing else from a superficial and cursory analysis of their appearance. None of that is implied anywhere. That's purely your own projections, which is the part I was hoping you'd realize on your own. Though I doubt you will even after I've pointed it out, seeing that you've already ignored -Axle- when he pointed out something similar to you.

So they drew 'tits for tits sake' doesn't say they viewed their female characters as decorations first, characters second?

 

[Denamic]

I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Spoiler: This wasn't what gave her pause.

Spoiler: This was.

I could say the same to you here.
We're all well aware that the game has way exaggerated and sexualised depictions of women. Vanillaware games tend to have that. The point me and some others here are trying to make is that sexualised things aren't inherently negative. I don't think anyone here even tried to refute that the game has ridiculous shit in it.

So they drew 'tits for tits sake' doesn't say they viewed their female characters as decorations first, characters second?

Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.

 

[Erttheking]

Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.

I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. We have porn for when we want to look at naked girls, why do we need it in video games too?

 

[chadachada123]

snip

My train of thought is that while there are women who want bigger breasts out there, breasts themselves don't empower you in any way physically. Muscles though make you stronger, more resilient. You look tough and like you've put a lot of work into building those muscles. With said muscles, in a fantasy setting, you can fight anyone and anything.

Some women find really muscular men attractive, no denying that but I'd bet money that when the developers were designing characters they were not thinking of them. I see where you're coming from but I just don't see muscular male characters designed with female's fetishes in mind.

[/quote]

I think that this whole "fuck-huge pectorals = strength" idea partially comes from the general public's misunderstanding of fantasy vs reality.

Because the guys with the *biggest* and most defined muscles are not the strongest. And the strongest men in the world do not look particularly large or fit, partially because they have a much higher fat content than the dudes that go in bodybuilding competitions.

Here's the strongest man in the world:

Link in case hotlinking doesn't work:
http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2010/Sep/Behdad_Salimi_Wins_the_Supers_at_the_World_Weightlifting_Championships.html

Now compare that fatass to your bodybuilders or Mr. Universe competitors, like Arnold Scharzenhager:

Spoiler

While plenty of high school jocks would like to look like the latter, the average guy certainly wouldn't want to look like that, since they understand that it isn't all that sexually appealing to females compared to a 'normal' fit athlete like a soccer player or fit-as-opposed-to-buff football player, and that size does not equate to strength.

What I don't understand is why many females don't understand that the sorceress is as much a male sexual fantasy as the dwarf is a female one: Both are very heavy and grotesque exaggerations of what males or females would want in real life (that is, to look sexually appealing). Only fetishists would consider her breasts or his pecs attractive.

 

[Denamic]

Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.

I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. Porn is the place for wanting to look at naked girls, why should we have it in video games too?

Hello Mr. Strawman. I used porn as an example, it does not mean the game has porn in it, but let's roll with it. Now I can't comment on the characters in this particular game yet, but I think it's fair to use Odin's Sphere as an analogue in this case. Specifically Velvet. Like the women in this game, she's exaggeratedly sexualised. Yet she also has a well crafted personality and an interesting backstory that ties into the events of the game. In other words, sexualisation and good characterisation are not mutually exclusive.

As to why we 'should' have sexualised shit in games? That's a nonsense question. Why should we not? Because some people don't like it? Other people like it, so it's a moot point. That type of question can cover everything in any game ever. Why have games at all? Some people don't like that, even think they're all harmful.

Anyway, this argument is probably over for me now. I'm getting tired of it, and it is 3am.

 

[Tanis]

^So...you like 2 or 3 games, at the most?
MOST video games have horrid characters, when it comes to stories and personalities, male AND female.

Also remember THIS:

Spoiler

Yeah...I don't really recall everyone losing their shit over THAT picture.

 

[Erttheking]

Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.

I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. Porn is the place for wanting to look at naked girls, why should we have it in video games too?

Hello Mr. Strawman. I used porn as an example, it does not mean the game has porn in it. Now I can't comment on the characters in this particular game yet, but I think it's fair to use Odin's Sphere as an analogue in this case. Specifically Velvet. Like the women in this game, she's exaggeratedly sexualised. Yet she also has a well crafted personality and an interesting backstory that ties into the events of the game. In other words, sexualisation and good characterisation are not mutually exclusive.

As to why we 'should' have sexualised shit in games? That's a nonsense question. Why should we not? Because some people don't like it? Other people like it, so it's a moot point. That type of question can cover everything in any game ever. Why have games at all? Some people don't like that, even think they're all harmful.

Anyway, this argument is probably over for me now. I'm getting tired of it, and it is 3am.

Ok, I misunderstood what you said in the post before and I apologize for that.

Why shouldn't we have it in video games? Look, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be in video games, sorry if it came off as so, but the thing is that frankly it just looks stupid and more often than not it ends up being immersion breaking. I'm not saying that you can't like it, I'm saying that I don't like it and a lot of women don't like it.

*Sigh* This argument has gotten out of hand, I don't even remember what we're arguing about. Sorry if I seemed like a jerk.

 

[Denamic]

Ok, I misunderstood what you said in the post before and I apologize for that.

Why shouldn't we have it in video games? Look, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be in video games, sorry if it came off as so, but the thing is that frankly it just looks stupid and more often than not it ends up being immersion breaking. I'm not saying that you can't like it, I'm saying that I don't like it and a lot of women don't like it.

That's fine. Yeah, as I've said earlier in the thread, I can see that people may not like it. Personally, I don't dislike it, but neither am I overly fond of it. I prefer mild exaggeration over heavy exaggeration. I do love the aesthetics in general though. Different folks, different strokes. All I'm trying to get across is that while I am aware there is legitimate criticism to be brought against this sort of thing, it's all too common that people overlook a lot of facts that's right in front of them in favour of superficial and heavily flawed criticism.

Anyway, I'm done for realsies now. I'm going to ban myself from typing anything until I've slept.

 

[Baron von Blitztank]

I've had a passing interest in the Beat 'Em Up genre and the visuals do look pretty...
Who knows? Maybe this'll make for a nice introduction into the genre for me. Will probably have to wait by years end before I get it but by that time it'll have dropped in price anyway!

 

[KissingSunlight]

When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.