Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I think we can add this to the list of "overblown controversies" right alongside the tomb raider "OMG He caressed her leg WITHOUT PERMISSION!!" scandal and the ken levine box art fracaus.


That bitter nonsense aside I cant wait to play this Ive always loved vanillaware games.

Actually, XSEED is now refusing to localize Senran Kagura due to fear of being attacked by Kotaku or the rest of the gaming media.

that's unfortunately to be expected. If you thought Dragon's Crown was bad, Senran Kagura is made as both fanservice and action (not sure what got priority). At least the people in Dragon's Crown are believed to be adults; you will have a hard time with characters with a chest like the sorceress on teenagers.

shame, heard the characters are actually both funny and decent

 

[lord.jeff]

Much like other Vanillaware games I'm not sure if I want the game or just an art book of the game.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Disregarding the "skimpy" issue, these character designs apart from the Elf and the Wizard dude just creep me the fuck out!
It's always good to exaggerate your character designs to a degree, but for Christ's sake keep it balanced. Most of the characters in this game look like they're suffering from elephantiasis. This amount of body horror would make David Cronenberg blush.

As for the actual game... Odin Sphere was okay, but monotony set in pretty soon. I don't know how this game compares to that.

 

[Ipsen]

The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.

Another difference: A game character is just that; a character. No matter how multi-dimentional, it does not hold the facets that a real personality does. I'll say that, for me, that's grounds not to sweat this situation TOO much.

I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Spoiler: This wasn't what gave her pause.

Spoiler: This was.

Oh. OHHHHHHHH. -giggle-

On a serious note, I do want to ask; Isn't the 'fantasy' genre the right home for this kind of tripe?

Ma'idah's 'regressive' comment sparked this, but considering not only the tag 'fantasy', I.E. 'in your mind', but also the time period that fantasy usually draws from (I'll shoot for around medieval), it wasn't a friendly and pure place, and it wasn't like how fairy tales and kids games would like us to imagine it as. Not going to get deep into it (cuz I'm too lazy to research), but I think the 'myth' of, say, the alluring sorceress (by spell or not) or the sexually repressed nun have some roots in the time period presented.

Surely it doesn't stand in the contemporary mindset, but realize (or at least pretend) you also go BACK in time in this of genre.

 

[WindKnight]

Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.

Yeah muscled men do embody positive traits, but lets not pretend they aren't fetishised and ridiculous as well. All these characters are deformed and sexualized; we just happen to place good qualities on the male designs alongside with the bad. That's not exactly the fault of the artist, though. If the artist went through the effort to make the females more... normal looking(?) they would then be out of place alongside the "living tumors" that the males appear to be. At the end of the day, it was a lose/lose situation.

I think Jim C Hines summed it up best in a couple of blog posts where he emulated urban fantasy, fantasy and romance novel covers.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/

these poses, womens poses, glamorize rather than strengthen, and most of them cause discomfort or actual pain to hold, something that undercuts strength - women have to be pretty, and that's all that matters.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/

All the poses embody strength, power, dominance. Even on the pictures aimed at women, the men are powerful, in charge. Dudes are manly, powerful and to be admired for being so. A man can be conventionally ugly, but he's still an awesome manly man to be admired.

 

[Yuuki]

I think Jim C Hines summed it up best in a couple of blog posts where he emulated urban fantasy, fantasy and romance novel covers.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/

these poses, womens poses, glamorize rather than strengthen, and most of them cause discomfort or actual pain to hold, something that undercuts strength - women have to be pretty, and that's all that matters.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/

All the poses embody strength, power, dominance. Even on the pictures aimed at women, the men are powerful, in charge. Dudes are manly, powerful and to be admired for being so. A man can be conventionally ugly, but he's still an awesome manly man to be admired.

You're oozing with bias there - if a woman being womanly is all that matters, then males being manly is also all that matters. Both are unfair.
A lot of fantasy attempts to visit historical times, eras of bygone ages - this is compounded with a lot of fantasy being aimed at males along with nerd culture in general being rather male-dominated.
Pulling some extremely basic stuff from history, men were required to be manly/strong and women were required to be beautiful/charming - cold harsh requirements of life which neither gender could really escape. Expecting a man to spend their life training, fighting and performing laborious jobs was just as unfair as expecting women to learn housework, cooking, etc. The only difference was that one was glorified in the eyes of society and the other was simply considered normal. Y'know, probably because one of them involved getting killed (or worse, wounded and forced to live in agony) in service to the kingdom/empire and the other one...didn't...really?

Guess which one makes for a more interesting and thrilling foundation for a fantasy story? I'm sure you can take a vague stab at a guess. I agree fantasy is supposed to break the "norms", and it often does (especially when it explores futuristic/alien settings), but it often also relies on things we are already familiar with. We are familiar with history, and we are famliar with manly men and beautiful women. From the very basis of our evolution and biology, humans (as a whole) will continue to think that way for a long time to come regardless of technological and intellectual advancements.

 

[major_chaos]

I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories.

Its a retro style side scrolling beat-em-up, strong characterization was never going to be a selling point, and gender issues have nothing to do with it.

OT: Can wait to pick this up on the sixth, I only hope I can get there early enough to grab the Gamestop preorder art book that they are giving out first come first serve.

 

[WindKnight]

I think Jim C Hines summed it up best in a couple of blog posts where he emulated urban fantasy, fantasy and romance novel covers.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/

these poses, womens poses, glamorize rather than strengthen, and most of them cause discomfort or actual pain to hold, something that undercuts strength - women have to be pretty, and that's all that matters.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/

All the poses embody strength, power, dominance. Even on the pictures aimed at women, the men are powerful, in charge. Dudes are manly, powerful and to be admired for being so. A man can be conventionally ugly, but he's still an awesome manly man to be admired.

You're oozing with bias there - if a woman being womanly is all that matters, then males being manly is also all that matters. Both are unfair.
A lot of fantasy attempts to visit historical times, eras of bygone ages - this is compounded with a lot of fantasy being aimed at males along with nerd culture in general being rather male-dominated.
Pulling some extremely basic stuff from history, men were required to be manly/strong and women were required to be beautiful/charming - cold harsh requirements of life which neither gender could really escape. Expecting a man to spend their life training, fighting and performing laborious jobs was just as unfair as expecting women to learn housework, cooking, etc. The only difference was that one was glorified in the eyes of society and the other was simply considered normal. Y'know, probably because one of them involved getting killed (or worse, wounded and forced to live in agony) in service to the kingdom/empire and the other one...didn't...really?

Guess which one makes for a more interesting and thrilling foundation for a fantasy story? I'm sure you can take a vague stab at a guess. I agree fantasy is supposed to break the "norms", and it often does (especially when it explores futuristic/alien settings), but it often also relies on things we are already familiar with. We are familiar with history, and we are famliar with manly men and beautiful women. From the very basis of our evolution and biology, humans (as a whole) will continue to think that way for a long time to come regardless of technological and intellectual advancements.

And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best

 

[Denamic]

And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best

It's incredibly annoying trying to argue with you when the foundation of your argument is thick bias and projection. Where is it implied that when a female strikes an exaggerated pose that she's only there as decoration and a prize for men to claim? I actually find it pretty disturbing that you're able to get this 'message' from a cursory semi-analysis of appearance.

Men are put on display as being powerful, aggressive, and dominant, and these are all positive things and therefore okay? Sure, why not. Women are made out to be sexy, beautiful, and seductive, and these are negative things to convey? You honestly see no flaws with this reasoning?

 

[Ticklefist]

I came into these comments expecting a bunch of nonsense like, "my outrage has been justified because this game wasn't given a perfect score!" I'm glad most people realize something this silly was never meant to be taken serious.

Edit: I said this before I saw the picture of the Nun. SMH now.

 

[WindKnight]

And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best

It's incredibly annoying trying to argue with you when the foundation of your argument is thick bias and projection. Where is it implied that when a female strikes an exaggerated pose that she's only there as decoration and a prize for men to claim? I actually find it pretty disturbing that you're able to get this 'message' from a cursory semi-analysis of appearance.

Men are put on display as being powerful, aggressive, and dominant, and these are all positive things and therefore okay? Sure, why not. Women are made out to be sexy, beautiful, and seductive, and these are negative things to convey? You honestly see no flaws with this reasoning?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

I think this pretty much sums up the fallacy of your argument.

Men are idealised - they are given positive qualities that do not revolve around their appearances.

Women are objectified - all positive traits bar their appearance are ignored. The might be a brilliant scientist who creates technological marvels, a seasoned warrior of strength and talent, or a jounalist of insight and great wordplay, but this art shows them only as their boobs and ass, like everything else does not matter.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I grew up on this stuff. Beat'em Ups were my genre as a kid. Odin Sphere is also one of my favorite games. And I get that the art was intentionally exaggerating typical fantasy portrayals (buxom ladies and dwarfs being built like a boulder) to the point of absurdity. So hearing that the gameplay, the important thing here, is functional is great news.

 

[Ticklefist]

The same exact point being made by everyone else with the same exact words.

Well aside from a few bumps in the road like this one, it's great that the video game industry is beginning to make the necessary changes and make women more relatable. Once they get you guys sorted out I look forward to men that look a little more realistic and relatable.

 

[Denamic]

And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best

It's incredibly annoying trying to argue with you when the foundation of your argument is thick bias and projection. Where is it implied that when a female strikes an exaggerated pose that she's only there as decoration and a prize for men to claim? I actually find it pretty disturbing that you're able to get this 'message' from a cursory semi-analysis of appearance.

Men are put on display as being powerful, aggressive, and dominant, and these are all positive things and therefore okay? Sure, why not. Women are made out to be sexy, beautiful, and seductive, and these are negative things to convey? You honestly see no flaws with this reasoning?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

I think this pretty much sums up the fallacy of your argument.

Men are idealised - they are given positive qualities that do not revolve around their appearances.

Women are objectified - all positive traits bar their appearance are ignored. The might be a brilliant scientist who creates technological marvels, a seasoned warrior of strength and talent, or a jounalist of insight and great wordplay, but this art shows them only as their boobs and ass, like everything else does not matter.

You're not listening. I'm arguing against how you're making arguments. I've already mentioned multiple times earlier in the thread that I am aware the females are heavily and exaggeratedly sexualised in the game. My point is you're going into the argument with a foregone conclusion and ignoring every point made against you. Case in point: You're arguing that the female characters in this game are oversexualised. Yes, I agree. But, you're also arguing they're displayed as weak and only there for decoration and something for men to throw over their shoulder. That would be a fair point if they actually were, but none of this is conveyed through just screenshots and gameplay clips. In fact, the gameplay clips directly contradicts that, as the females are clearly on par with the males. A character is more than their appearance, and I think it's safe to say you haven't played the game and do not know anything, or very little, about the characters other than their appearance. It's annoying arguing against a foregone conclusion.

 

[WindKnight]

And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best

It's incredibly annoying trying to argue with you when the foundation of your argument is thick bias and projection. Where is it implied that when a female strikes an exaggerated pose that she's only there as decoration and a prize for men to claim? I actually find it pretty disturbing that you're able to get this 'message' from a cursory semi-analysis of appearance.

Men are put on display as being powerful, aggressive, and dominant, and these are all positive things and therefore okay? Sure, why not. Women are made out to be sexy, beautiful, and seductive, and these are negative things to convey? You honestly see no flaws with this reasoning?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

I think this pretty much sums up the fallacy of your argument.

Men are idealised - they are given positive qualities that do not revolve around their appearances.

Women are objectified - all positive traits bar their appearance are ignored. The might be a brilliant scientist who creates technological marvels, a seasoned warrior of strength and talent, or a jounalist of insight and great wordplay, but this art shows them only as their boobs and ass, like everything else does not matter.

You're not listening. I'm arguing against how you're making arguments. I've already mentioned multiple times earlier in the thread that I am aware the females are heavily and exaggeratedly sexualised in the game. My point is you're going into the argument with a foregone conclusion and ignoring every point made against you. Case in point: You're arguing that the female characters in this game are oversexualised. Yes, I agree. But, you're also arguing they're displayed as weak and only there for decoration and something for men to throw over their shoulder. That would be a fair point if they actually were, but none of this is conveyed through just screenshots and gameplay clips. In fact, the gameplay clips directly contradicts that, as the females are clearly on par with the males. A character is more than their appearance, and I think it's safe to say you haven't played the game and do not know anything, or very little, about the characters other than their appearance. It's annoying arguing against a foregone conclusion.

Except this discussion was entirely about 'why do people get angry about art of half naked women, but not half naked men? Double Standards! Double Standards!'. That's the entire thing I have been talking about. And whilst the game itself does present the amazon and sorceress as pretty kick butt and awesome, look at how the promo art presents them, and compare it to how the warrior and the dwarf are presented in their art. The dwarf is arguably showing as much skin as the amazon but his posing is much more aggressive and powerful. The amazon is doing a glamour pose, and the sorceress is presenting the usual back-breaking boobs n butt pose that say nothing about their strengths and capabilities.

 

[Milanezi]

Now I LAUGH when people say they didn't buy a PS Vita, this shall be my... humm... Third Vita game... yeah not cool...

Anyway, I'm getting this for Vita asap Looks pretty entertaining, maybe over the top, but so was Hotline Miami (I KNOW, it's totally different, and, for my tastes, I sincerely don't expect anything to top Hotline Miami, I really didn't expect it to amaze me as much as it did ) and most other games that are really catching my attention lately. hope I'm right

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories.

Its a retro style side scrolling beat-em-up, strong characterization was never going to be a selling point, and gender issues have nothing to do with it.

Actually I purchased Odin Sphere (which is also a retro style side scrolling beat-em-up, developed by Vanillaware),
for strong characterization. Particularly this guy.

He's a dragon, and if a developer could skip out on the characterization of anything and get away with it, it would be a dragon. More often they're just stock enemies with little role to play in the actual story. Wagner however, has reasons for attacking you, that stem farther than "It's just his nature".

Just because a game is of a particular genre doesn't mean it can't have a good story or strong characterization as a selling point. Actually the reviewer even noted lackluster story as a downside to this game, which implies a good story is becoming a requirement for most games.

 

[-Axle-]

Except this discussion was entirely about 'why do people get angry about art of half naked women, but not half naked men? Double Standards! Double Standards!'. That's the entire thing I have been talking about. And whilst the game itself does present the amazon and sorceress as pretty kick butt and awesome, look at how the promo art presents them, and compare it to how the warrior and the dwarf are presented in their art. The dwarf is arguably showing as much skin as the amazon but his posing is much more aggressive and powerful. The amazon is doing a glamour pose, and the sorceress is presenting the usual back-breaking boobs n butt pose that say nothing about their strengths and capabilities.

And so this is the point that (IMO) is most worth addressing. The discrepancy in assessment / logic in the judgement of whether an issue exists or not.

Whether someone thinks the depiction of exaggerated men or women is right or wrong will always be a subjective issue that is dependent on the individual, the current time, social environment, culture, etc. Its like asking whether someone thinks a certain kind of music is good or bad, the issue will come down to people's perspective and observation of what is at stake.

In this case, what I am hearing is people trying to dismiss that one exaggeration is okay while the other is not, one is positive and the other negative. All on the premise that one caters to one gender's sexual inclination (which is debatable as that's a bit of a generalization) while the other doesn't (again, generalization, but for the sake of simplicity). From a fundamental perspective, both are exaggerations and neither is immune to being attached to positive or negative traits. The fact that people see "honour" or "bravery" in one and not the other is truly a projection of one's own beliefs and not what is being presented considering that both those traits are abstract concepts of character / personality.

Here are some examples, a woman posing sexually can be a liberating idea for someone who's sexuality has been repressed. To them, that image can show someone confident, able to put themselves in a vulnerable position without feeling threatened, self-aware, courageous, etc. To another person, one who's sexuality has been exploited, it could mean someone who's been taken advantage of, submissive, stripped of their dignity, etc. Now that doesn't mean if you hold either of those views that you have been sexually repressed or exploited, that's just to illustrate how someone can arrive at either of those views and how they can be in strict opposition to each other despite the same content being in question. A more basic example could be a picture of a military officer, to some it would represent protection, bravery, strength, honour, etc. while to another it represents corruption, cowardice, abuse, oppression, etc. At the end of the day, all that was presented is the image of a military officer.

Now, this is what I think is worth emphasizing the most, attaching positive traits to an image is all fine and good. Attaching negative traits or inferring that positive traits cannot be attached to an image is where I feel a problem is created because it reinforces a double standard with very real negative consequences for both genders. Its in line with the same logic as the double-standard of a promiscuous male or female (ie. the male is commonly viewed as "ok" while the female is commonly viewed as "slutty" or wrong). It encourages the notion that a person who resembles that very same imagery is devoid of any positive traits (or embodies negative ones) and results in a lack of respect towards a demographic (or an entitlement towards another).

 

[SnakeoilSage]

Not to harp on a genre that hasn't been relevant since the 90's (side-scrolling beat 'em ups, not fantasy), but I can get all the random flashes of light, bouncing numbers, and sex-appeal from Borderlands 2. It's not really something to brag about when you're making Mad Moxxi look subtle and nuanced.

 

[edgecult]

Here's a question:
How's the lag?


Odin Sphere, at least the NTSC-U released, had some damn near CRIPPLING lag during some of the fights.

Curious about that myself. Hardest bit in the whole game for me was the back to back odette, queen of the dead boss fights... so much lag.. but even still game was bloody beautiful and loads of fun when you weren't choking out your ps2 processor to pump out all that pretty.

I'm not sure if the NTSC-U version would be different from the NA release, but that lag was normal in any fight with far too many enemies, and thus effects, going off at once.


Having played their other games, I've noticed less and less lag though. Muramasa on the Wii ran pretty well, and the vita version I'd say runs silky smooth. So with the upping of the power on the PS3/Vita, I'd think it's a safe bet that unless some giant extreme occurs it would run fine.

Ah, I don't remember it getting to bad on any other fight than Odette but that's because she just pumps out stupid amounts of extra guys to flood the screen that hobbled my game when I got to close to the mass. (I remember spending half the fight on the other side of the game map and firing off tornado's in her general direction trying to clear the screen enough to get a few good strafing runs on her to try and keep the lag issue down. Muramasa ran perfectly fine for me when I played it on Wii (no vita. Every game I want on it I've beaten on another system already. Can't keep rebuying every new version of Persona >.> it's getting silly now.)