Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

[Rabidkitten]

The strange thing about this debate is that even though the women are hyper sexualized. They are not victims, they are ass kicking super heroes. They may have alluring poses in concept art, but when you get into the game, they are tearing through hordes of enemies with ease. It also should be noted that you have options if you don't like the art. If you want a muscular naked male or female (Dwarf/Amazon), Clothed? (Wizard, Elf). So I don't see the complaint too much, the game gives the player the option to play a fairly correctly proportioned elf girl, and a fairly correctly proportioned Wizard guy and past that you never really have to look at any of the characters again.

 

[shadowmagus]

Ive bought two copies of this game, one for PS3 and one for Vita, and I don't even own a vita because I want this game to sell literally millions of copies. I want people so mad at the success of this game they choke.

 

[WindKnight]

Except this discussion was entirely about 'why do people get angry about art of half naked women, but not half naked men? Double Standards! Double Standards!'. That's the entire thing I have been talking about. And whilst the game itself does present the amazon and sorceress as pretty kick butt and awesome, look at how the promo art presents them, and compare it to how the warrior and the dwarf are presented in their art. The dwarf is arguably showing as much skin as the amazon but his posing is much more aggressive and powerful. The amazon is doing a glamour pose, and the sorceress is presenting the usual back-breaking boobs n butt pose that say nothing about their strengths and capabilities.

And so this is the point that (IMO) is most worth addressing. The discrepancy in assessment / logic in the judgement of whether an issue exists or not.

Whether someone thinks the depiction of exaggerated men or women is right or wrong will always be a subjective issue that is dependent on the individual, the current time, social environment, culture, etc. Its like asking whether someone thinks a certain kind of music is good or bad, the issue will come down to people's perspective and observation of what is at stake.

In this case, what I am hearing is people trying to dismiss that one exaggeration is okay while the other is not, one is positive and the other negative. All on the premise that one caters to one gender's sexual inclination (which is debatable as that's a bit of a generalization) while the other doesn't (again, generalization, but for the sake of simplicity). From a fundamental perspective, both are exaggerations and neither is immune to being attached to positive or negative traits. The fact that people see "honour" or "bravery" in one and not the other is truly a projection of one's own beliefs and not what is being presented considering that both those traits are abstract concepts of character / personality.

Here are some examples, a woman posing sexually can be a liberating idea for someone who's sexuality has been repressed. To them, that image can show someone confident, able to put themselves in a vulnerable position without feeling threatened, self-aware, courageous, etc. To another person, one who's sexuality has been exploited, it could mean someone who's been taken advantage of, submissive, stripped of their dignity, etc. Now that doesn't mean if you hold either of those views that you have been sexually repressed or exploited, that's just to illustrate how someone can arrive at either of those views and how they can be in strict opposition to each other despite the same content being in question. A more basic example could be a picture of a military officer, to some it would represent protection, bravery, strength, honour, etc. while to another it represents corruption, cowardice, abuse, oppression, etc. At the end of the day, all that was presented is the image of a military officer.

Now, this is what I think is worth emphasizing the most, attaching positive traits to an image is all fine and good. Attaching negative traits or inferring that positive traits cannot be attached to an image is where I feel a problem is created because it reinforces a double standard with very real negative consequences for both genders. Its in line with the same logic as the double-standard of a promiscuous male or female (ie. the male is commonly viewed as "ok" while the female is commonly viewed as "slutty" or wrong). It encourages the notion that a person who resembles that very same imagery is devoid of any positive traits (or embodies negative ones) and results in a lack of respect towards a demographic (or an entitlement towards another).

Again... A PERSON choses what they chose to wear, chooses how they act and has all the rights in the world to do whatever they please with their own body, behaviour and fashion choices.

A CHARACTER has all this chosen for them by an artists who's intentions are in question. And in the cases that cause people Ire the intention is to provide titillation using characters who are supposed to be strong women. And if this is porn or erotica, that's no problem - sexy outfits have their place. if its a fantasy knight who's supposed to be fighting monsters with sword and shield, and the portrayal is more interested in giving us boobs and ass, its weakening the character for the sake of titillation - this is objectification. this is why people don't like the chainmail bikini, and half naked women in these kind of situations. To bring up an example from comic books, a female character is welding, has an accident and is burned. If, as scripted, she had been wearing safety gear thats all it would have been. But he artist wanted breasts, so put her in a low cut top, which ultimately made the character look like a complete idiot when she had the accident and got burned.

Please stop trying to say that by being against objectified characters I'm trying to 'slut shame' women who chose their own wardrobes. Its not what I'm saying and you know it.

 

[Erttheking]

Turns out seeing a gender (possibly their own gender) being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses bothers some people. I'd be perfectly okay with and understand you saying that you don't personally take offense to the game or its art/style, but apparently you can't show the same courtesy to anyone who disagrees with you. There's nothing wrong with not being offended by something, but there's a lot of things wrong with you being completely incapable of understanding why it might be offensive to others.

Don't kid yourself. Comparing a fantasy video game to the real world and generating a reaction based on that is an incredibly naive thing to get 'offended' over, let alone have it dictate what the overall thought of video game review should be. 'Castle Crasher's' had you carrying around fair maidens like they were no different to sheep, the outright personification of the so called 'objectification of women in games', yet no one bats an eye.

It is with these double standards and illogical perceptions that bring about the 'incapability of understanding' by people who deem thoughts like these to be worthless as it is clear (and has been for a long time now) that this isn't about what's right or fair. Only an outright perversion of a non-issue to have a place in media discourse.

Wait, what? We're talking about the sexualization of women, not damsels in distress. Also who's offended? No one is offended, I'm not offended, she's not offended, we're criticizing the design of a character because it reflects a rather negative trend in the industry, and frankly because it just looks dumb.

 

[Masterdebator]

Not surprising the devs behind Odin Sphere released a solid game.

Also not at all a fan of the art style personally, but the uproar of defensive-minded political correctness it caused was absurd and completely unwarranted. On the positive side, this has probably just resulted in the game getting more attention, therefore more sales.

Might check out some footage in the future, and see if I'd like to pick up a copy myself.

Maybe one day certain individuals online will realize the strange fact that art styles/ character models in a fantasy setting are in no way bound to reflect reality.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip.

That was a word for word conversation I had somebody with Twitter (yes, I know. Shame on me for using Twitter).

Also, why is it always a double standard? If you see a women with huge breasts and little clothing, it is sexist. As you put it, "being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses". Yet, the same exact description holds true to the male characters like the dwarf and warrior. Little clothing, huge muscles, giant pack, "heroic" poses. Yet, you deem it as a power fantasy. It isn't to me and MANY Men out there. Most men, as has been said in this very thread, don't consider this a power fantasy.

This is the issue I have with the whole deal. It is NEVER anything but a "Power Fantasy" as you put it, even though I find it disturbing just as much as a women does with the Sorceress. Which is utter and complete bullshit and you know it.

The only difference in this whole thing is that most men out there that I know don't take offense to it. Why should we? Sure a lot of us find it disgusting, but it is a fucking GAME. A game all about overly exaggerated features. This, besides the obvious double standard that you have so clearly shown, is what I don't get.

I'm not sure what that conversation has to do with the debate being had at the moment.

Also, here's the thing that makes things different. Intent and purpose of design, in other words, what the intent of the design and the purpose of it. The intent of the design of characters with sexualized bodies making poses is too look sexy and the purpose of that design is to appeal to the male audience. The intent of big muscular men who beat up hundreds of people at once is to be a power fantasy, and the purpose of design is also to appeal to a male audience. And that's where the problem comes in, male characters are designed to appeal to males, but female characters are also designed to appeal to males. You may not personally like them, and a lot of people may not, but the thing is that was the intent behind their design, to pander to the male audience.

That's why people get annoyed. They don't consider male power fantasies sexist because they were power fantasies designed specifically to pander to men, but they get annoyed at sexualized female characters because they are also designed to be pandered to men. It's a sign of a much bigger problem in the industry, that games are designed for men and no one else. Women want more female characters that aren't designed to be sex objects, I don't think they'd mind a female character designed to be a power fantasy, they want to be pandered to for once.

 

[hermes]

I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.

Why not? We have seen countless examples of games being bumped up a notch because of their particular art style and characters design (for example Okami, Borderlands or Team Fortress 2). Its only fair that the opposite can also happen depending of the taste of the reviewer.

 

[hermes]

Maybe one day certain individuals online will realize the strange fact that art styles/ character models in a fantasy setting are in no way bound to reflect reality.

They don't reflect reality, but they do reflect intent. Most people jumping at the defense of the art style make it look like its characteristics are on the eye of the beholder, when in truth it was an intentional decision in the part of the developer.

 

[Erttheking]

And that's where the problem comes in, male characters are designed to appeal to males, but female characters are also designed to appeal to males.

That's why people get annoyed. They don't consider male power fantasies sexist because they were power fantasies designed specifically to pander to men, but they get annoyed at sexualized female characters because they are also designed to be pandered to men. It's a sign of a much bigger problem in the industry, that games are designed for men and no one else. Women want more female characters that aren't designed to be sex objects, I don't think they'd mind a female character designed to be a power fantasy, they want to be pandered to for once.

Wow, this is hilarious. Your complaint is that a game designed by men for men appeals solely to men?

Here's an idea; if women want to be represented as 'they' wish in video games, why don't they design them their selves? Then we'll be able to argue why games designed by women for women that appeal only to women are so exclusive of men.

We'll just leave it as a stalemate.

The fact that video games should only be designed for men is an unhealthy mindset and the idea that people of one gender can't design games that the other gender can enjoy just doesn't make any sense. The head writer of Assassin's Creed 2 was a woman.

Also there's problems in the industry regarding female characters, the developers of remember me had to fight tooth and nail to make a game with a female lead.

 

[Erttheking]

The fact that video games should only be designed for men is an unhealthy mindset and the idea that people of one gender can't design games that the other gender can enjoy just doesn't make any sense.

Because I'm sure you're just dying to play a game squarely about romance that also comes with jewelry; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw4cFZCsBPA

I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.

I...what? What is that even supposed to mean?

Not exactly, I've got more than a few female gamer friends and just about all of them are fans of the Persona series, which doesn't have any sexualized characters and simply has a very good story with very likable characters. I also love the Hell out of Persona, as do plenty of my male friends. My female friend is also introducing me to the Suikoden series, an awesome game series about massive political intrigue and gray and grey morality.

We're not as different as you think.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.

Is there no middle ground? Surely a game can have aspects that appeal to both men and women. Also I would appreciate a source from the developers that state Dragon's Crown is made by men for only men and no one else... Actually in these days of game developers trying to "appeal to a broader audience" to make a game for only men seems like the opposite line of thought.

 

[Masterdebator]

Maybe one day certain individuals online will realize the strange fact that art styles/ character models in a fantasy setting are in no way bound to reflect reality.

They don't reflect reality, but they do reflect intent. Most people jumping at the defense of the art style make it look like its characteristics are on the eye of the beholder, when in truth it was an intentional decision in the part of the developer.

If accentuating physical proportions translates into an "intent", than it can be applied to every billion dollar superhero franchise in existence.

Sex sells when comes to audiences. It's why we have shallow pandering crap like Transformers for the little boys and Twilight for the little girls. A cold reality in business, but it can be superseded by good direction, acting, writing, game play, visuals, and overall design, which can turn the physical proportions/ designs of characters into a superficial complaint.

Annah in Planescape Torment could be subjected to the notion of "intent" to you put to Dragon's Crown, but the sheer quality of the game itself would make whining about her outfit nothing more than a vain attempt at criticizing a irrelevant superficiality in the grand scheme of things, on top of ignoring the wowing experience the game itself offers. I'm not comparing DC to PT, but I am saying when it comes to the criticism of video games I want to see something more substantive than seeing their choice style of imagery taken out of context and cynically judged (as anyone can do that with nearly any (vaguely sexual) entertainment medium in existence).

Batman has detailed armor for his muscular body and Catwoman wears a synthetic/ leather outfit for her gymnast trained body.

"Run to the hills and pray for our souls children. We have yet again sinned in the ever-watching eyes of the politically correctness. DAMN US. WHEN WILL WE LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES."