Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

[Tanis]

I wonder if all you 'white knights' and 'P.C. police' will be willing to post 4/5 pages of 'OMG SEXISM' the next time a 'mainstream' game comes out with the same bullcrap.


But, I doubt it, because it's easier to attack a game that's not some AAA tripe than it is to attack a game that is.

 

[-Axle-]

If you were talking about a serious setting, then you'd have an easier time making that argument but then it completely falls out of line with the current subject considering the entire universe is based on exaggeration and exhibitionism.

Again the Writer had decided she knew enough about what she was doing to wear the proper gear. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the artists decision to overide that because he wanted fanservice was at bets misguided?

I'm a little lost, so you're implying that one person wrote the scene and another changed it? Is that what happened in Dragon's Crown? or only in the example you are giving?

 

[Erttheking]

I wonder if all you 'white knights' and 'P.C. police' will be willing to post 4/5 pages of 'OMG SEXISM' the next time a 'mainstream' game comes out with the same bullcrap.


But, I doubt it, because it's easier to attack a game that's not some AAA tripe than it is to attack a game that is.

I'm sorry, I think the design of the characters is stupid, how does that make me a white knight?

 

[Erttheking]

This is actually a real advertisement for the game. It's... kind of disturbing. They also chose the worst time possible to try and advertise their crap like this. Or maybe they did it on purpose to gain attention and notoriety?

Personally I prefer the PopCap way of dealing with it:

It is a much better way of pointing out how idiotic it is than complaining I feel.

You'll stop seeing such adverts when they stop WORKING and luring clicks. I thought that would have been extremely obvious.

It costs money to put adverts there, nothing is free, and the people doing it aren't morons - they know what grabs attention, what the typical gender/age of the person browsing that particular site is, etc. All they need to do after that is advertise accordingly and BAM, lots of clicks on their advert.

People like you and me (who see it as sleezy) make up maybe 0.01% of the internet's population, so I don't know what you're getting at with "the worst time possible".

Using sex to advertise products still works as good as ever, and until it stops working you won't see it go away. I'm personally fine with it, it doesn't really bother me. Because whining about it is the equivalent of beating your fists against a glacier to make it stop moving. Oh and the glacier is being pushed from the other side by 50 million people.

Confucius said something once. If a thousand people do a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. I'm sorry, but I don't consider "It's popular" to be an adequate defense of something.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Regarding the issue of "games made for men", I have a very simple point to make.


In my view, people of all genders should make games they themselves would like to play. If you're making a game you wouldn't wanna play, obviously the result would be half-assed. It would be like cooking your least liked kind of food for someone else to eat. Surely, someone who likes that food would make it better and if you were to make YOUR favorite kind of food, it'd also be a way better specimen than the dish which was not to your taste.



The fact that so many games are made for men is simply an unavoidable sideffect of people doing the right thing and making games they themselves would actually want to play, that they themselves have a passion for.


To say that men should have a passion for female-oriented issues is both dumb and unrealistic. Why should they be forced to like or be inspired by certain things? Art doesn't work like that. You can't force OR blame someone for feeling one way or another in regards to their artistic expression through game design.



As long as males make games, games will be male oriented. If you want more games to be made for women, you need more women to make games. This doesn't mean that women have to just inflitrate everything. They just need to start making their own little niche and develop games with other women, without needing to be "allowed" to do this by anyone. They need to devote the resources and time that others with similarly unpopular dream-games have devoted in the past and they need to take a risk and hope that there is an actually sustainable market for their dream project out there.


That, I think, is the only way for this situation to be fixed. Asking men to make half-assed games that they're not into is only bound to produce loathsome mediocrity which will further absolutely nothing and harm a whole lot.

 

[Paragon Fury]

Nun with her legs spread open you say?

I'll see that and raise you "Angel with jiggle physics striptease and fingering herself introduction":

 

[Yuuki]

Confucius said something once. If a thousand people do a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. I'm sorry, but I don't consider "It's popular" to be an adequate defense of something.

Never said it was an adequate defense or any kind of defense at all, dunno where you pulled that from. Merely stating the obvious. Confucius forgot to add "if a thousand people desire foolish things, foolish things will continue to exist".

I'm totally fine with this sort of foolish thing because it's not hurting anyone. If people are going to play the "hurting women's image!" card, I can only put them into the same category as those tinfoil-hat-wearers who immediately blame Call Of Duty to the most recent school shooting, or consider killing a boar in Far Cry 3 as animal cruelty. Such people are free to exist in their own void/dimension and I typically don't bother responding to them, their opinions aren't worth it.

Regarding the issue of "games made for men", I have a very simple point to make.

In my view, people of all genders should make games they themselves would like to play. If you're making a game you wouldn't wanna play, obviously the result would be half-assed. It would be like cooking your least liked kind of food for someone else to eat. Surely, someone who likes that food would make it better and if you were to make YOUR favorite kind of food, it'd also be a way better specimen than the dish which was not to your taste.

The fact that so many games are made for men is simply an unavoidable sideffect of people doing the right thing and making games they themselves would actually want to play, that they themselves have a passion for.

To say that men should have a passion for female-oriented issues is both dumb and unrealistic. Why should they be forced to like or be inspired by certain things? Art doesn't work like that. You can't force OR blame someone for feeling one way or another in regards to their artistic expression through game design.

As long as males make games, games will be male oriented. If you want more games to be made for women, you need more women to make games. This doesn't mean that women have to just inflitrate everything. They just need to start making their own little niche and develop games with other women, without needing to be "allowed" to do this by anyone. They need to devote the resources and time that others with similarly unpopular dream-games have devoted in the past and they need to take a risk and hope that there is an actually sustainable market for their dream project out there.

That, I think, is the only way for this situation to be fixed. Asking men to make half-assed games that they're not into is only bound to produce loathsome mediocrity which will further absolutely nothing and harm a whole lot.

Nice post, agreed. But could've saved yourself the effort of typing all that by just posting this 2 minute video

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Confucius said something once. If a thousand people do a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. I'm sorry, but I don't consider "It's popular" to be an adequate defense of something.

Never said it was an adequate defense or any kind of defense at all, dunno where you pulled that from. Merely stating the obvious. Confucius forgot to add "if a thousand people desire foolish things, foolish things will continue to exist".

I'm totally fine with this sort of foolish thing because it's not hurting anyone. If people are going to play the "hurting women's image!" card, I can only put them into the same category as those tinfoil-hat-wearers who immediately blame Call Of Duty to the most recent school shooting, or consider killing a boar in Far Cry 3 as animal cruelty. Such people are free to exist in their own void/dimension and I typically don't bother responding to them, their opinions aren't worth typing a response to.

Regarding the issue of "games made for men", I have a very simple point to make.

In my view, people of all genders should make games they themselves would like to play. If you're making a game you wouldn't wanna play, obviously the result would be half-assed. It would be like cooking your least liked kind of food for someone else to eat. Surely, someone who likes that food would make it better and if you were to make YOUR favorite kind of food, it'd also be a way better specimen than the dish which was not to your taste.

The fact that so many games are made for men is simply an unavoidable sideffect of people doing the right thing and making games they themselves would actually want to play, that they themselves have a passion for.

To say that men should have a passion for female-oriented issues is both dumb and unrealistic. Why should they be forced to like or be inspired by certain things? Art doesn't work like that. You can't force OR blame someone for feeling one way or another in regards to their artistic expression through game design.

As long as males make games, games will be male oriented. If you want more games to be made for women, you need more women to make games. This doesn't mean that women have to just inflitrate everything. They just need to start making their own little niche and develop games with other women, without needing to be "allowed" to do this by anyone. They need to devote the resources and time that others with similarly unpopular dream-games have devoted in the past and they need to take a risk and hope that there is an actually sustainable market for their dream project out there.

That, I think, is the only way for this situation to be fixed. Asking men to make half-assed games that they're not into is only bound to produce loathsome mediocrity which will further absolutely nothing and harm a whole lot.

Nice post, agreed. But could've saved yourself the effort of typing all that by just posting this 2 minute video

Ah well, I just felt like writing this and I had not seen this video so it's alright.

 

[Paragon Fury]

The fact that video games should only be designed for men is an unhealthy mindset and the idea that people of one gender can't design games that the other gender can enjoy just doesn't make any sense.

Because I'm sure you're just dying to play a game squarely about romance that also comes with jewelry; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw4cFZCsBPA

I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.

Otherwise, don't make arguments that men and women crave completely different things always and forever based on nothing other than the evidence that men and women raised in a society that tells them that they should like something, happen to like that something.

Actually, yeah. Its kind of true. While I don't have free access to it anymore since its been too long since I graduated from college, if I could I would link to a bunch of well-researched studies and discussions about this very thing. But the layman's short English version is this;

Males are predisposed towards aggression, (over)confidence, violence, competition and recklessness etc. because males who are ultimately wind up in superior positions compared to their peers who are not so in the long run - more resources, safer, live longer, more and better mates and such. Life for men is essential one LONG competition to prove who is best and most deserving of things. There is literally not a moment/stage in a male's life where they aren't in competition with other males, even if they don't realize it. If you trace our genetic history for example, most males who have ever lived have NO ONE alive today with their genetic information for example. As opposed to females who almost ALL have someone alive today with their genetic information in them somewhere.

Females are generally more predisposed towards passivity, cooperation, timidity and caution etc. because females who do tend to be more successful than their female peers who are not. They get better mates, have more resources, are more respected etc. in the long run. They develop different interests from men simply because they don't have the same reasons as men to be interested in things.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard. As for games that they're interested in, taste in video games isn't exactly defined by gender. My female friend likes shooters just as much as any guy. I'm not saying that developers should drop everything they do and start all over again to appeal to women, I'm just saying that they should remember that women are buying the games too. And frankly the solution to that is easy, a balanced cast. Persona 4 did it no problem. Really the writing in the industry right now just kind of sucks overall, that's a big part of the problem as is the over reliance on sex. It needs to be worked on.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Snip

Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard. As for games that they're interested in, taste in video games isn't exactly defined by gender. My female friend likes shooters just as much as any guy. I'm not saying that developers should drop everything they do and start all over again to appeal to women, I'm just saying that they should remember that women are buying the games too. And frankly the solution to that is easy, a balanced cast. Persona 4 did it no problem. Really the writing in the industry right now just kind of sucks overall, that's a big part of the problem as is the over reliance on sex. It needs to be worked on.

Persona 4 did a lot of things which count as sexist too, they were just never brought under a microscope like how Dragon's Crown stuff was. Rise's entire dungeon or Yukiko's LITERAL damsel in distess Shadow could have very easily become targets of controversy. (never mind the Christmas eve sexual encounters with the entire female leads and support cast, the padgeons, the bathingsuit scene of the field trip, Nanako joking about marrying you, Mooroka buying gravure magazines of 15-year-old girl idols despite being a teacher, Rise being refered to as "inexperienced jailbait" by another teacher, etc. etc. etc.)


Well-written female characters do not preclude games from having content someone can potentially find objectionable if they were pre-desposed to being offended by something. Often times both co-exist as a singular expression. Especially so in Japanese-made things.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard. As for games that they're interested in, taste in video games isn't exactly defined by gender. My female friend likes shooters just as much as any guy. I'm not saying that developers should drop everything they do and start all over again to appeal to women, I'm just saying that they should remember that women are buying the games too. And frankly the solution to that is easy, a balanced cast. Persona 4 did it no problem. Really the writing in the industry right now just kind of sucks overall, that's a big part of the problem as is the over reliance on sex. It needs to be worked on.

Persona 4 did a lot of things which count as sexist too, they were just never brought under a microscope like how Dragon's Crown stuff was. Rise's entire dungeon or Yukiko's LITERAL damsel in distess Shadow could have very easily become targets of controversy. (never mind the Christmas eve sexual encounters with the entire female leads and support cast, the padgeons, the bathingsuit scene of the field trip, Nanako joking about marrying you, Mooroka buying gravure magazines of 15-year-old girl idols despite being a teacher, etc. etc. etc.)


Well-written female characters do not preclude games from having content someone can potentially find objectionable if they were pre-desposed to being offended by something. Often times both co-exist as a singular expression. Especially so in Japanese-made things.

But Persona 4 got away with it for a reason, and it was for a very good reason. Damsel in distress is not an inherently bad trope, and Persona 4 handled it better than most because the damsel in distress was a personification of Yukiko's insecurity of feeling helpless. Arguing that that was sexist would be like arguing that Kanji's shadow was homophobic, it's not saying being feminine or homosexual is bad, it was a personification of their fears. Also with the rest of the examples, I think you're kind of missing the point with exactly why Dragon's Crown is under such heavy controversy. Pretty much all of those things were jokes which added to the very light hearted atmosphere, and the Christmas encounters were the culmination of a relationship that had been building up over a long time, in some cases the course of the entire game. Not to mention the sex was "You spend a long time with x" so I don't follow the concept of it being sexist. Though I suppose there's the "do it with everyone" aspect, but even then that's more down to the player being a dick.

But you're missing the main point, do you know why people don't really get mad at Persona 4 for those things? Because the female characters in that game were people. The entire cast was comprised of well rounded, sensibly designed characters all of them likable in their own way. Chie, Yukiko, Rise and Naoto were all well developed people. The Sorceress is just a woman with big breasts. No redeeming qualities, nothing else to her. A woman with big breasts is her lone identity. And that's why people get mad at Dragon's Crown and not Persona 4.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Snip

Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard. As for games that they're interested in, taste in video games isn't exactly defined by gender. My female friend likes shooters just as much as any guy. I'm not saying that developers should drop everything they do and start all over again to appeal to women, I'm just saying that they should remember that women are buying the games too. And frankly the solution to that is easy, a balanced cast. Persona 4 did it no problem. Really the writing in the industry right now just kind of sucks overall, that's a big part of the problem as is the over reliance on sex. It needs to be worked on.

Persona 4 did a lot of things which count as sexist too, they were just never brought under a microscope like how Dragon's Crown stuff was. Rise's entire dungeon or Yukiko's LITERAL damsel in distess Shadow could have very easily become targets of controversy. (never mind the Christmas eve sexual encounters with the entire female leads and support cast, the padgeons, the bathingsuit scene of the field trip, Nanako joking about marrying you, Mooroka buying gravure magazines of 15-year-old girl idols despite being a teacher, etc. etc. etc.)


Well-written female characters do not preclude games from having content someone can potentially find objectionable if they were pre-desposed to being offended by something. Often times both co-exist as a singular expression. Especially so in Japanese-made things.

But Persona 4 got away with it for a reason, and it was for a very good reason. Damsel in distress is not an inherently bad trope, and Persona 4 handled it better than most because the damsel in distress was a personification of Yukiko's insecurity of feeling helpless. Arguing that that was sexist would be like arguing that Kanji's shadow was homophobic, it's not saying being feminine or homosexual is bad, it was a personification of their fears. Also with the rest of the examples, I think you're kind of missing the point with exactly why Dragon's Crown is under such heavy controversy. Pretty much all of those things were jokes which added to the very light hearted atmosphere, and the Christmas encounters were the culmination of a relationship that had been building up over a long time, in some cases the course of the entire game. Not to mention the sex was "You spend a long time with x" so I don't follow the concept of it being sexist. Though I suppose there's the "do it with everyone" aspect, but even then that's more down to the player being a dick.

But you're missing the main point, do you know why people don't really get mad at Persona 4 for those things? Because the female characters in that game were people. The entire cast was comprised of well rounded, sensibly designed characters all of them likable in their own way. Chie, Yukiko, Rise and Naoto were all well developed people. The Sorceress is just a woman with big breasts. No redeeming qualities, nothing else to her. A woman with big breasts is her lone identity. And that's why people get mad at Dragon's Crown and not Persona 4.

I don't think we even know who she is yet, that's the issue. The game isn't out. You may find out more about her than the story. I think it is the people rather than the game itself which makes her "the boob person" or some such thing. To me she's a magician who throws fireballs and hurricanes and can bring skeletons to life way more than a pair of overly supple breasts.


It's also quite unfair and unrealistic to demand that a agme such as this have the level of character detail and depth than a game like persona did. This genre just isn't suited for that, it doesn't have an hour and a half worth of cutscenes when you press new game before letting you do anything other than progress the dialog box. You literally are unfair in expecting it to compare with that level of characterization and to build that level of deep motivation for why each person looks as they do.



You're saying that contexts redeems potentially sexist things of their sexism in persona, I agree, I feel this game's context as a "lightearted, satyrical, fantasy/DnD trope reimagining" does the same. It redeems the sorceress out of any sexism and turns her into an over the top variant of the typical sexy witch trope that has persisted for ages.

 

[Yuuki]

Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Criticize away, never said you couldn't. Some people criticize the existence of strip clubs, guess how effective that criticism has been? Last time I checked they're everywhere, big cities especially.

I repeat, criticize away. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard.

Then become a game developer and show everyone how it's done. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it

 

[Erttheking]

Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Criticize away, never said you couldn't. Some people criticize the existence of strip clubs, guess how effective that criticism has been? Last time I checked they're everywhere, big cities especially.

I repeat, criticize away. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard.

Then become a game developer and show those men how it's done. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it

You know, I have to say I really don't like that argument, I want to write, but I want to write books, more control over the creative vision and more of a personal touch. I have no idea how to get a job in the gaming industry, I have no desire to get a job in the gaming industry, gaming is my hobby, I don't want to make my hobby my job, that is a very miserable experience. Not to mention writing in the gaming industry has been proven to be a nightmare considering that you have to fight tooth and nail in order to have the main character be a woman.

I'm sorry, it just kind of annoys me that you can't really seem to criticize some things without the "Let's see you do better" argument, and I just really REALLY don't like that argument. I have no money, I'm still in college, and game developer is a very unstable job. I don't WANT to write for video games, but just because I write and don't write for video games doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize the design for characters. I mean, designing sensible female characters isn't hard. Look, I came up with these a year ago.

http://s3.photobucket.com/user/neko-hime-cfi/media/FROMASHES2.png.html

 

[Yuuki]

You know, I have to say I really don't like that argument, I want to write, but I want to write books, more control over the creative vision and more of a personal touch. I have no idea how to get a job in the gaming industry, I have no desire to get a job in the gaming industry, gaming is my hobby, I don't want to make my hobby my job, that is a very miserable experience. Not to mention writing in the gaming industry has been proven to be a nightmare considering that you have to fight tooth and nail in order to have the main character be a woman.

I'm sorry, it just kind of annoys me that you can't really seem to criticize some things without the "Let's see you do better" argument, and I just really REALLY don't like that argument. I have no money, I'm still in college, and game developer is a very unstable job. I don't WANT to write for video games, but just because I write and don't write for video games doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize the design for characters. I mean, designing sensible female characters isn't hard. Look, I came up with these a year ago.

http://s3.photobucket.com/user/neko-hime-cfi/media/FROMASHES2.png.html

Nice sketches

Alright I'll stop using the "lets see you do better" argument. Male developers can absolutely write female characters, the video didn't say they can't. All he said was that there is an extremely obvious reason why you will never see a 50/50 gender balance games OR a fair representation of women in games, when 90% of developers are male. Expecting a big chunk of those developers to CHOOSE to write female characters (on top of writing them well) is completely and utterly unrealistic, because males generally don't associate with being female or playing as females due to...you know...not being goddamn female. Males know the male mentality best, guys know what guys want. Females know what females want. There is a small overlap but it's not much. There is also room for gender-neutral games because tons of them already exist, but expecting ALL games to be gender-neutral is just as unrealistic as expecting a 50/50 gender balance. That's all he was saying.

Criticizing a male-dominated industry for making for making too many games aimed at males is the perfect example of not being able to see the forest for the trees. We are at the limits of what a male-oriented industry can achieve in terms of "fairness" towards female characters...drastically more women need to take up careers in game development, the true change starts there. Criticize away : /

 

[Erttheking]

Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Criticize away, never said you couldn't. Some people criticize the existence of strip clubs, guess how effective that criticism has been? Last time I checked they're everywhere, big cities especially.

I repeat, criticize away. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard.

Then become a game developer and show those men how it's done. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it

You know, I have to say I really don't like that argument, I want to write, but I want to write books, more control over the creative vision and more of a personal touch. I have no idea how to get a job in the gaming industry, I have no desire to get a job in the gaming industry, gaming is my hobby, I don't want to make my hobby my job, that is a very miserable experience. Not to mention writing in the gaming industry has been proven to be a nightmare considering that you have to fight tooth and nail in order to have the main character be a woman.

I'm sorry, it just kind of annoys me that you can't really seem to criticize some things without the "Let's see you do better" argument, and I just really REALLY don't like that argument. I have no money, I'm still in college, and game developer is a very unstable job. I don't WANT to write for video games, but just because I write and don't write for video games doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize the design for characters. I mean, designing sensible female characters isn't hard. Look, I came up with these a year ago.

http://s3.photobucket.com/user/neko-hime-cfi/media/FROMASHES2.png.html

Nice sketches

Alright I'll stop using the "lets see you do better" argument. Male developers can absolute write female characters, the video really didn't say they can't. All he said was that there is an extremely obvious reason why you will never see a 50/50 gender balance when 90% of developers are male. Expecting a big chunk of those developers to CHOOSE to write female characters (on top of writing them well) is completely and utterly unrealistic, because males don't associate with being females or playing as females due to...you know...not being goddamn female. Males know the male mentality best, males know what males want. Females know what females what. There is an overlap, but it's not much. That's all he was saying.

Thanks, but I didn't draw them. They're my characters, but a fan drew them.

I guess as a writer that argument is just a sore spot for me. I mean, I've only been writing for four years and I don't find writing female characters hard at all. You just write human beings that happen to be women. Yeah you need to change some of the more subtle details, but for the most part they're the same concept.

 

[niie]

I will admit that while I believe the game deserved better than your 3/5, your review and reasons why you gave it such a score are valid and actually intriguing. Unlike other game reviewers you give the game its due and do not throw the baby out with the bathwater that is the depiction of the characters in the art. Dinging it for having no visual power growth, tedious and somewhat unclear quest/mission design are definitely solid complaints against an otherwise great and extremely fun game.

I still do long to hear someone complain at length about the lack of what seemed like a perfect reason for Cross-Buy. As well as the fact it lacks the ability for the Vita and PS3 versions to communicate with each other. Being on both Sony's "boxes" and not having either feature really begs the question as to why the game has a single trophy list.

 

[WindKnight]

If you were talking about a serious setting, then you'd have an easier time making that argument but then it completely falls out of line with the current subject considering the entire universe is based on exaggeration and exhibitionism.

Again the Writer had decided she knew enough about what she was doing to wear the proper gear. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the artists decision to overide that because he wanted fanservice was at bets misguided?

I'm a little lost, so you're implying that one person wrote the scene and another changed it? Is that what happened in Dragon's Crown? or only in the example you are giving?

I'm talking about the comic book example - the welding. And yes, the writer and the artist were different people, and the writer had scripted the scene as the character being in the correct gear, and the artists changed it simply because he wanted some breasts to draw. This is the point I'm making, that as the scene was written a sensible person had an accident and was hurt. Because someone wanted boobs, the scene got turned into an immature person who deosn't know what she's doing getting hurt because of her foolishness. The 'need' for boobs sabotaged the character.