Draw Harley Quinn Naked, Killing Herself, To Win DC Artist Contest

[The Deadpool]

Objectifying is not the same as sexist. Are you dense or just being willfully ignorant?

You think objectifing a woman isn't sexist? Seriously?

Objectification: turning someone into an object. Sexism: treating an individual or group worse than another because of their sex. I can objectify without being sexist. You can be sexist without objectifying. I objectify men and women I see in porn sometimes.

You can try (amusingly) hard to save face and run around making up definitions all day. It won't distract from the fact that you made an assumption and missed the entire discussion.

Just stop. The mistake is done. The humor has faded.

Here's an exercise for you. Google "objectification of women" and let me know how many articles you find in the first page AREN'T about sexism.

Notice your focus on sexism vs objectification and TOTALLY IGNORING THE DISCUSSION AT HAND.

This is what we call a red herring. Notice also you already dismissed the argument over and STILL posted this, but did not bother to defend your position.

You a simple "I was wrong" isn't much to ask is it?

 

[Hdawger]

Jeez, the amount of sensitivity in this thread is off the charts. Obviously they're doing this to find an artist that can accurately portray the macabre humor of Harley Quinn, and as far as the last panel goes, they want to make sure it is realistic and contrasts with the other three panels. As far as mentioning that she be naked, that doesn't have anything to do with sexualizing the character, it only emphasizes a human's vulnerability at their bleak circumstances (plus most people take baths naked).

Also, I'm not gonna mention names or anything, but the people saying that they mentioned that she be naked when they didn't have to, only to emphasize that they wanted to see her naked, I ask WTF? Some people in the comments are literally reading over this like a bunch of vultures or lawyers nitpicking through every individual word, and if the writer of the description of these panels says one word too many in the description of the panel art that they want, then they must be repugnant pigs.

 

[Coreless]

Lol look at all the people trying to make an issue where non exists, the reason they stated she should be naked is because if they didn't they probably draw her clothed and that is not what they are looking for. The have to set perimeters for people to follow so they aren't disqualified and not everyone would automatically assume that being in a bathtub equals nakedness end of story, stop trying to make an issue of everything related to women and showing skin.

You actually struck exactly on the issue you're pretending doesn't exist.

if they didn't they probably draw her clothed and that is not what they are looking for

They are 'looking for' pictures of a naked woman killing herself. They want suicide cheesecake. That's crass and gross, and in keeping with a lot of really questionable trends at DC comics of late

To me its sounds like psychological projecting at its finest, you are assuming that intent and really I don't see it. To me it sounds like a parameter that they want artists to meet for a contest not some covert attempt at trying to be insensitive or sexist. People see conspiracy everywhere where there isn't any, the in-credulousness of some people baffles me.

 

[The Deadpool]

Yes. Of course. People would all draw a woman fully clothed. In the bath.

They would also all draw birds without feathers if you didn't mention them having feathers, right.

-_________-

A bird's normal state of being is feathered. It is the deviation from the norm that has to be explained.

Notice in the alligator scene describes a suit of RAW chicken. Because otherwise, someone might have drawn live ones or cooked, rotesserie ones.

 

[DaViller]

I´m not a big comic enthusiast more an anime/manga guy. But I realy liked the old batman series and harley was one of my favorite characters. Therefore I realy didn´t like the way she was portraied in the arkham games (I dont know if this is like that in the comics). I not against new interpretations of a character but I think every character has a certain essence to it that should not be changed.

Im also generally in the "anything goes" camp when it comes to art and as long as I like something I will defend it.

Therefore, I think it is a bit early to jump to condemnations of any kind, until we see how the chosen comic will look like.
Reading the what the director described I think this could turn out to be something realy cool.

I imagine the last shot to be harley just going "fuck you guys im outta this" after being put into these ridicoulus situations by the artist. Harley would be the perfect character for this if you ask me, this type of morbid homur is completly her thing (at least in my mind).

On the other hand it could be completly out of character "sexy chick suicide" cheese with harley in it just for extra fan service (and realy weird fan service at that, I mean who wants to see a character they like commit suicide).

It all depends on wether or not her character is kept intact and if it is this could be pretty fun.

Also does this remind anyone else of the panty and stocking ending song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbhAaDdQFY0

 

[The Deadpool]

You a simple "I was wrong" isn't much to ask is it?

I think it might be, because I dunno what the fuck a "You a simple "I was wrong'" is or how to do it.

I've discussed the topic. You can try desperately hard not to read all you like and pretend you've made some sort of point. I wasn't going to ignore you, but you insist on badgering me and asking for something I've given half a dozen times. Your rant is done -- at least from my inbox it is.

More posts talking about how you're NOT going to respond than ACTUAL posts responding.

How can objectification care more about thoughts and feelings than appearance?

It's not a difficult question.

 

[Hagi]

I don't really see how it's so outrageous to mention she should be naked when in bath like everyone else, normal ain't exactly her standard...

So if it's in Harley's nature to bathe in costume then why would they want artists to go against her nature just to show her naked?

What you usually do isn't the same as your nature.

Harley usually wears her costume, that's expected. It doesn't have to be her nature to do so, she's still Harley without it.

And naked most certainly doesn't have to mean sexualized. There's easily a lot more things that it can express that would be completely appropriate like say vulnerability or comedy. It all depends how it's drawn.

But it's the fact that they drew specific attention to the nakedness, even though that should be the default state in this situation.

The added emphasis is a request that that element be particularly exemplified - that the nakedness be a focal point of the picture. And to make a nude female body the focal point of a piece of comic art - particularly DC comic art - is usually to objectify and sexualize that body.

For further clarification:

A lot of people are mentioning how it's obvious that she would be undressed, as she's in the bath. First off, she's not actually taking a bath. Secondly, if it's obvious, why mention it? It deliberately takes the imagination to a place with a naked woman in it, which has sexual connotations. If they had left out "naked" it's possible that people would have drawn her naked; they also might have left her in her costume, as that's the most obvious identifier of who she is, and could lend a bit of lightheartedness to the scene.

Also, note that there's a discussion thread going about this already.

They're not emphasizing anything. They're simply mentioning that she's naked. This would have been emphasis:

She's sitting naked in a bathtub, without clothes, with a bunch of electrical appliances dangling over her bare and exposed body.

Not to mention that a place with a naked woman in it does not automatically have sexual connotations, especially not in the context of suicide in a bath tub.

Is it seriously too much too ask to first wait and see what kind of winning drawing results from this before concluding that this is a vile sexualization of suicide? I realize it's a thrill to be offended, to feel that righteous anger for the wrongs that others do, but let's at the very least wait until a wrong is actually committed and not jump the gun at something said that when interpreted in a certain way and non-existent emphasis added to certain words may possibly imply a certain thing...

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

not touching the suicide angle (cos in all honesty, it's not classy when Deadpool and the like do it, it's also not classy when Harley does it, but it seems to draw significantly more attention, probly from being more public and that they're taking it more seriously BUT CARRYING ON BEFORE THIS GETS SIDETRACKED) I can see why it might be relevant to add naked as a descriptor (though I can think of better ones)

If I asked everyone to draw Harley Quinn, how many would draw a small, but in shape, blonde woman in regular, loose fitting clothes possibly eating some ice-cream, maybe watching TV with a big dumb dog lying by her feet? And how many would draw her in a skin-tight red and black costume with the tassles and greasepaint, probably with a giant hammer? It'd be the same as if we did the same scenario with Deadpool (using the example because... well, they have similar costumes and he's in the same bag as "Insane" inverted commas who would commit suicide as a plot arc) in that same scene if you said Deadpool in the tub he'd be wearing the mask. You'd actually need to add 'naked' or 'maskless' and I'm interpreting, because I'm hoping against hope that there was some thought put into this, that when they mean Naked they mean "Not obviously costumed up" because with comic characters the costume is kind of important. There are a myriad examples where on the cover a character would wear their costume in inappropriate or unrealistic situations just because Peter Parker by himself on the cover doesn't catch the eye of someone looking and you need Spiderman to be standing around in the Bugle offices doing a coffee run. So presumably they want 3 in costumes one out of costume (I dispute the phrasing of naked, I think saying no-costume would have been better but I can't say it's using the word incorrectly, just foolishly since it can be interpreted in... well, the ways it has been).

In the example of Harley that costume, that identity, is kinda hinged on the Joker and his influence on her. So having one Naked (and again, I'm assuming they don't just do the head in the costume the rest naked because THAT would be pointless) shows how vulnerable she is and how this is her outside of what the Joker manipulates her into doing. Yeah I've probably phrased this badly, and I think someone already said it, but, NAKED HARLEY I assume means no costume, the actual Dr Harleen rather than Harley Quinn, comical obsessive.

Although, OT: Really guys? Suicide on the covers? First all the covers are 3D, now this? Get your shit in gear

 

[The Deadpool]

To me it sounds like a parameter that they want artists to meet for a contest

That's exactly the problem. What possible reason would they have for making naked a parameter in an art contest about suicide?

It's not just an art contest. It's a page in a comic. The question is "what possible reason would they have for having a naked panel in a comic" and the answer is "there's a shit ton of possible reasons."

 

[anthony87]

I was talking to my boyfriend about this. He pointed something out that someone had pointed out to him.

Why mention her being nude? If she's in the bath, that's expected, right? So why go out of your way to stress it?

They specifically make a point of requesting she be nude. Not just in the bath. Not bathing. Nude. Why? Because stressing that she be naked means the artists stress that she is naked. Her being visibly nude is part of the requirement. DC is going out of their way to ask that her body be exposed. While turning women into bodies to ogle is nothing new, doing it on top of the subject of suicide is profoundly tasteless.

It's not really sexist, but it is objectifying and objectionable. It's also really fucking dumb.

EDIT: If this is how DC wants to act, they can consider their logo an automatic deal breaker for me on any product. I'm not offended personally. I'm sickened by their tact.

......Boudica?

Boudica is that you?

 

[Mr. Q]

Rather than dive into the sexism debate since that has beaten to death by both sides, I'd like to offer some "insight" from co-writer Jimmy Palmiotti on his take on this mess. Click on the link below and look at Jimmy's reply both on Twitter and on his Tumblr.

http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/123898-dc-releases-script-for-harley-quinn-contest-internet-outraged.html#.UiuVSJa-isU.tumblr

Thanks, Jimmy! Although that would have been nice to know if you or any of the fuckwits at DC Comics mentioned that to begin with! Which leads me to a far more intelligent response by Lewis "Linkara" Lovhaug on his Tumblr along with his thoughts on anyone thinking of taking part in this contest.

http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/60576514089

You know, back when I was first learning about making comics, the books I read stated that any and all symbolism and full context related to what is happening needs to be given to the artist since the artist cannot read your friggin? mind. Unless you trust the artist to tell the story and it doesn?t matter how they do so in the particular context, YOU. INCLUDE. EVERYTHING.

So leaving out that little ?she?s breaking the 4th wall/satire? bits don?t really help if the contest-makers don?t know that.

Furthermore, I encourage people to NOT enter into this for a simple reason: it?s not a foot in the door to DC Comics. DC is not interested in a new artist. Why? Because if they were, they would have asked for a sample of a page that showed superheroes fighting, different uses of light, being able to tell a story without dialogue, and different moods in the panels. Because THAT is what you need for an artist.

Not someone who can draw Harley Quinn naked in a bathtub purportedly breaking the 4th wall.

At best what will happen to the winner of this contest is doing inking work, additional pencils, storyboarding, and maybe promotional artwork. This is not going to actually lead to a career making comics. Because DC is not interested in getting people into a career making comics. They are interested in publicity.

And they really, REALLY suck at that, if these last few days have shown anything.

And to fully put this, as well as every moronic and heartless thing DC Comics has done, into context, allow me to offer you two more links. First is an article from Gutters & Panels.com entitled "The DC New 52 Timeline of Departures, Firings, and Bridge-Burnings" that offers what has happened with the company and its creators ever since DC Entertainment was formed (which is basically ground zero for all the dickery that has transpired).

http://guttersandpanels.com/gutters-and-panels/2013/3/23/the-new-52-timeline-of-departures

Finally, if you want to stay current with DC's constant acts of idiocy, head over to "Has DC Done Something Stupid Today?" and see what the other screw-ups this company has made. As of this posting, the counter for how many days DC Comics has gone without doing something stupid is at zero.

http://hasdcdonesomethingstupidtoday.tumblr.com/

Given how this company is being run these days, they might as well keep the counter at zero. -_-

 

[Lieju]

I can see how suicide can be used as humor, but why are they makng a contest out of this?

I'm bothered by the 'naked' requirement, but also by the

'She is looking at us like she cannot believe what she is doing. Beside herself. Not happy.'

Sounds hilarious.

There is no description of any kind (on that page anyway) that says what the point of these scenes is supposed to be.

 

[The Deadpool]

'She is looking at us like she cannot believe what she is doing. Beside herself. Not happy.'

I think you misunderstood tha description:

She is standing in a lightining storm, trying to attract lightining and failing. She is comicallyupset about her suicide attempt failing horribly.

Same with raw chicken suit surrounded by alligators who ignore her.

This is basic juxtapositioning. First three pannels are silly, zaney Harley doing silly zaney thing to kill herself and failing in silly and zaney ways.

Final panel is the woman inside the mask, having a genuinely personal moment and seriously contemplating suicide.

 

[Coreless]

To me it sounds like a parameter that they want artists to meet for a contest

That's exactly the problem. What possible reason would they have for making naked a parameter in an art contest about suicide?

It's not just an art contest. It's a page in a comic. The question is "what possible reason would they have for having a naked panel in a comic" and the answer is "there's a shit ton of possible reasons."

Because that is what they want in the comic, there could be a million reasons why but, to automatically assume its some nefarious plot to be sexist and degrading is just beyond ridiculous. Its starting to sound downright paranoid with a lot of people these day, people are seeing sexism and racism in absolutely everything and using their personal interpretations as facts. Almost everything is taken as evidence which just keeps building on to itself, perpetuating the paranoia even more.

 

[grey_space]

After this and reading up a bit on what DC has been doing for the past years, they're starting to come across as the comic book company version of present day microsoft in terms of bad PR and bad decisions...

Microsoft...or possibly Bioware/EA.

Between this and the whole Batwoman marriage thing they really are coming across as a pile of silly fuckers lately.

I mean...really?

 

[Lieju]

'She is looking at us like she cannot believe what she is doing. Beside herself. Not happy.'

I think you misunderstood tha description:

She is standing in a lightining storm, trying to attract lightining and failing. She is comicallyupset about her suicide attempt failing horribly.

Same with raw chicken suit surrounded by alligators who ignore her.

This is basic juxtapositioning. First three pannels are silly, zaney Harley doing silly zaney thing to kill herself and failing in silly and zaney ways.

Final panel is the woman inside the mask, having a genuinely personal moment and seriously contemplating suicide.

That description was from the first panel.

And if that's what they want, maybe they should have mentioned it?
And made the description of last panel NOT over-the-top, and very simple, maybe depict her slitting her wrists?

Although I don't think that's the tone they wanted, but this just proves they should have mentioned it in the description.

 

[xaszatm]

Ok.

Ok.

Alright.

Let's take a tally. You ask me, for the third time, about mentioning her naked. This, despite the entire discussion thus far having been me answering that question.

Then you wrongly insist objectification is the same as sexism. Despite having been told otherwise.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and call the talk here. I can see you.......... don't take well to reading a debate you are in. Bye.

Again, we see your dodging the question.

Can't objectify something when her feelings and emotions are more important than her appearance. That is the OPPOSITE of being an object.

Okay, the reason people are angry about that fourth panel is not JUST because she is naked. Gotham City Sirens (my favorite comic book series) has a bunch of fan service shots including nude bathing. The fact that DC specified that she be naked is in fact only one part of a bigger problem. The problem is made up of elements, that when alone, is no problem and sometimes can lead to great storytelling, but a huge issue when combined. The main issue is the contrast between the word "naked" with the rest of the paragraph.

That entire paragraph is, in contrast to the three previous panels, telling a fairly more realistic version of suicide. Sure, there are some elements that are unrealistic, like the amount of electrical equipment above her, but compared to trying to get struck by lightning or eaten by a whale, it is much more subdued. Now once again, by itself, this panel has nothing wrong with it (at least for me).

However, why in the description specifically mention that Harley has to be naked? Now, before people go "but she is in the bathtub, of COURSE she would be naked!" let me remind you that she being naked isn't the problem. It is the fact that DC specifically asked for her to be naked. Why go the extra mile to include it? Hell, why doesn't DC specify that there should be water in the tub? After all, if you're going to state the obvious, include the obvious. But no, DC wants Harley to be nude in the scene. Once again, by itself, nudity or the word "naked" a description doesn't always mean a problem.

But combined? Essentially we have a panel where DC wants you to draw a fairly realistic suicide attempt, with Harley acting much more subdued compared to the energetic last three panels. They also want you to draw Harley naked in this same panel. And that is the problem. Why bring up her being naked here? Many people as a result see this as DC wanted to show a fan-service shot in what otherwise seems to be an actual attempt on her life. This is why the description of that scene is objectifying. Reducing, in comparison to the other panels, a semi serious scene into a glorious fan-service shot. It doesn't matter that naked is only one word in that sentence, its the fact that it is included in that sentence at all.

Now disclaimer: I am speaking for myself. I reserve the right to keep my opinion or change it depending on future or past evidence. Just because I don't like one thing, doesn't mean that all version of that same thing should be banned because life isn't binary. I am a horrible grammar person so ask if things are confusing. The fact that this disclaimer is becoming more required on forums is sad indeed.

 

[RJ 17]

Ummmm...hate to break it to you, folks, but showing a female naked in a bathtub - a context in which one would expect a female to be naked - is not sexualizing her. It seems everyone immediately believes that nudity = sexualization. Sooooo I take it that means that Michelangelo's David is a sexualized statue? I find it absolutely amazing that people are more appalled at the fact that this contest calls for drawing a naked woman rather than the fact that the contest calls for drawing someone TRYING TO KILL HERSELF.

I mean seriously people, get your priorities straight. Any ladies on the forum, I ask you: how many times have you sat fully clothed in a bathtub full of water? Are you "sexualizing" or "objectifying" yourself by taking off your clothes to get into a bathtub full of water? I dare say that if you think that someone trying to commit suicide while naked in a context where someone would be expected to be naked is sexualization of suicide then you're the one that might have some issues to think over. Look at it this way: if she were wearing her clothes, would that picture be any more tasteful? If not, then I'd imagine the nudity isn't what's making it tasteless to begin with.

Sorry, for a moment there I forgot that this was the internet and therefor any kind of nudity automatically equates to porn/objectification. Nude models for art are clearly something everyone should be ashamed of.