Draw Harley Quinn Naked, Killing Herself, To Win DC Artist Contest

[Steve Dark]

There's a lot of outrage over this, and the main question I find myself asking is that if this had been the Joker instead, how different would it have been?

 

[Erttheking]

So, the social justice warriors are whining again because of a comic book character killing herself in a bathtub...

..Oh noes, the horror, for some reason...

Is it just me or are accusations of someone being a social justice warrior around twice as common as accusations of sexism or misogyny? Seriously, the phrase really ticks me off. It's basically grouping everyone that disagrees with you in one group and treating their views as something that they should be ashamed for having and dismisses all of them without actually addressing them.

 

[SinisterDeath]

There's a lot of outrage over this, and the main question I find myself asking is that if this had been the Joker instead, how different would it have been?

Since when does society care about men committing suicide?

 

[Brian Tams]

Draw Harley Quinn Naked, Killing Herself, To Win DC Artist Contest
...but the main thrust of the response was that a strong female character was being reduced to a sexualized nothing, and put in a situation that is, at best, unpleasant.
Permalink

I'm sorry if I'm off topic a bit, and I'm also sorry if I get this totally wrong for being a comic noob who doesn't give a fuck about the jumbled continuity, but when did Harley Quinn become a strong female character? Hasn't she always functioned as a punching bag for the Joker?

 

[Erttheking]

So, the social justice warriors are whining again because of a comic book character killing herself in a bathtub...

..Oh noes, the horror, for some reason...

Is it just me or are accusations of someone being a social justice warrior around twice as common as accusations of sexism or misogyny? Seriously, the phrase really ticks me off. It's basically grouping everyone that disagrees with you in one group and treating their views as something that they should be ashamed for having and dismisses all of them without actually addressing them.

Atleast I am not calling them white knights?

The reason it probobly annoys people so much is because it strikes too close to home, I am sure the people whining up a storm about this KNOW that their complaints are silly and pointless, but they are just being offended for the sake of being offended or so that they can seem progressive.

And why would I take their views seriously? There is nothing there to address, it is a person commiting suicide in a bathtub. OH NOES SHE IS NUDES! is not something that needs to be addressed.

I'm sorry but I don't buy that explanation. If you use a widely used term constantly to dismiss people's arguments with a flick of a hat, acting like using the term has netted you an automatic victory and kinda looks down on them, people are naturally going to be pissed when you use it. And no, that is not what's happening at all. Many people, myself included, see a lot of problems with the gaming industry and some trends in general. A lot of people, myself included, don't think they're bad per say, but the overwhelming leaning towards certain kind of trends gets frustrating and generic. But we can't criticize them without being reduced to "being offended for the sake of being offended so that they can seem progressive" That's a major part in why that term is so frustrating. A wide variety of views on different matters are thrown under one massive generalization combined with the people using it putting words in their mouths. It's frustrating in every sense of the word.

You're doing it again. You're massively oversimplifying the views of the other side and then dismissing the simple argument that doesn't accurately reflect their views. Heck, earlier in the thread I made a bit of a fuss over the concept behind the nudity, AND the fact that Harley Quin of all people was actually going to kill herself. That was not the argument I used at all. Please don't do that.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

There's a lot of outrage over this, and the main question I find myself asking is that if this had been the Joker instead, how different would it have been?

Ok, lemme ask you this... why isn't it Joker?
For all of the "I wonder what sort of outrage it'd be if it were a guy!" questions, the fact we have to wonder is sort of telling.

Lets see DC do something like this for a guy as remotely popular as Harley Quinn, and we'll find out.

 

[martyrdrebel27]

This isn't a big deal or news at all. Bored first worlders looking for something to ***** about. If this was outside of her character, sure, be pissed. But she's unstable and her boyfriend just died, who was the center of her world. As for the naked thing, sure, its sexy, but I think it has more to do with shedding her Harley Quinn identity. The outfit and makeup were a part of her Identity that is now dead, her suicide is only physically finishing the job.

 

[-Dragmire-]

So why should we be outraged again? It's not even canon and it's a fictional person.

"The sexualisation of suicide is something I will not be putting effort into"

Newsflash: Not all nudity is sexual and sometimes nudity is appropriate given the context, like say for example a bath.

Seriously show that description to a nudist and ask them to find anything sexual about it. They'll either go for the chicken bikini or give you a disturbing stare like you get off on people killing themselves.

I've found that certain cultures have quite a bit of difficulty separating nudity and sexuality. Not too sure why but it's not that uncommon to find people who can't seem to separate them. On the other hand, comics have often sexualized female characters which could lead people to the assumption that DC wanted the character to be depicted that way.

I don't know how I feel about some of the debates brought up by this controversy but I do feel that this is a pretty dumb contest.

 

[SinisterDeath]

There's a lot of outrage over this, and the main question I find myself asking is that if this had been the Joker instead, how different would it have been?

Ok, lemme ask you this... why isn't it Joker?
For all of the "I wonder what sort of outrage it'd be if it were a guy!" questions, the fact we have to wonder is sort of telling.

Lets see DC do something like this for a guy as remotely popular as Harley Quinn, and we'll find out.

Aside from an overtly popular character, the response will be. "So what"
or "what a weak asshole".

The entire outrage over this, is entirely sexist.
You can't show a naked female committing suicide, because that's sexualizing the fragility of the female psyche.
You can do the same thing for a male character, but its not going to have anywhere near the same reaction. Its going to have the opposite reaction. Why? Because society expects men to be strong physically, mentally, be heroes, with super human will power. And suicide is the same as being a coward.

So, Show a picture of batman, killing himself, while naked in a bathtub. (note, in this sense you can also say you were sexualizing it to. But apparently a naked man isn't sexualized, but any naked female is automatically sexualized.. what?).
The context is seen as completely different, even if every things the same, but gender.

 

[thepyrethatburns]

but the overwhelming leaning towards certain kind of trends gets frustrating and generic.

Like the trend where the Escapist puts in a deliberately baiting headline LESBIAN marriage too tough for Batwoman and the Social Justice Warriors immediately jump in without considering "Wait. What has DC's attitude on marriage been?" or even "I wonder if I should actually put some thought into the subject beyond just reacting to The Escapist's deliberately incendiary headlines"?

Yeah, that trend sure has gotten frustrating and generic. If the "Non-PC" bell were rung a little less often, not only would that label not get as much traction, people might be willing to listen a little more rather than writing the topic and the PC views off as:

"Another Feminism Tuesday topic. Here come the Social Justice Warriors."

 

[Rebel_Raven]

There's a lot of outrage over this, and the main question I find myself asking is that if this had been the Joker instead, how different would it have been?

Ok, lemme ask you this... why isn't it Joker?
For all of the "I wonder what sort of outrage it'd be if it were a guy!" questions, the fact we have to wonder is sort of telling.

Lets see DC do something like this for a guy as remotely popular as Harley Quinn, and we'll find out.

Aside from an overtly popular character, the response will be. "So what"
or "what a weak asshole".

The entire outrage over this, is entirely sexist.
You can't show a naked female committing suicide, because that's sexualizing the fragility of the female psyche.
You can do the same thing for a male character, but its not going to have anywhere near the same reaction. Its going to have the opposite reaction. Why? Because society expects men to be strong physically, mentally, be heroes, with super human will power. And suicide is the same as being a coward.

So, Show a picture of batman, killing himself, while naked in a bathtub. (note, in this sense you can also say you were sexualizing it to. But apparently a naked man isn't sexualized, but any naked female is automatically sexualized.. what?).
The context is seen as completely different, even if every things the same, but gender.

I haven't seen this sort of thing happen for a guy so I can't rightfully say what will happen.

Likewise the fact it hasn't happened to a guy makes this sexist, doesn't it? A contest like this?

Why's harley gotta be naked? Why would Joker, or Batman have to be naked? Joker and Harley are obviously crazed. They'd prolly do it with more flare due to their personalities, wouldn't they? I dunno about Batman, though..
And frankly the massive popularity of these 2 characters would cause an uproar on it's own. No one wants to see either character evaporate from the comicbook world.

Yeah, blame society but get mad at the people who may not be a part of that society you hate. Think I wouldn't be disgusted if it were Batman, or Joker in the exact same spot as Harley killing themselves in the same 4 ways in a contest open to the public? You'd be wrong. 'm sure a lot of people would be proving you wrong.
Society's going to have to change to get rid of why you're angry at it. I don't really have much of a solution to this.

This isn't about showing pictures. This is about asking people to draw the picture as part of a contest. They're asking the public to take part in this as opposed to just drawing the art themselves. It's vastly different.
You show a person of Joker graphically bashing in the head of a puppy in a comic book, and they're "Ok, he's a madman." ASK them to draw their interpretation, and you may not get the same result. You might as someone had to draw the image shown, but I gotta wonder what are the odds of the scene being reproduced faithfully would be? The shock value might be a bit much.

Naked men are sexualized unless they're unplesant to look at which is the same case for women. C'mon, all these commercials, TV shows, and movies where a guy's shirt gets removed? Ladies clubs with male strippers?

Think guys can't be broken up, or angry at the death of a fictional character? You've never seen the anger leveled at Volition for killing off Johnny Gat in Saints Row 3.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I'm also surprised that no one has pointed out that the current comic that most features Harley Quinn is called Suicide Squad. Grr, controversy, grr.

 

[BernardoOne]

I like Harley Quinn I like how dark and tragic her story is....I don't like it when DC abuses a character like her for publicity. DC has shown time and time again that it doesn't give a shit about it's characters in any regards expect for who gets money from marketing them. And that's what this is, publicity and I am so glad it is exploding in their faces. Maybe if they mentioned the fourth wall thing earlier people wouldn't have been so upset you could draw her looking at the reader 'Yeah this fuckwit is into this shit.' But they didn't they didn't mention it until after the shitstorm was in full swing. This is a continuation of the blatant misogyny shown by DC.

DC...women read comics a lot of them do. keep this up...and they won't be reading YOUR comics. That's half a market your alienating at least. And more of the other half who find this kind of shit...disturbing and wrong. I am not here to start an arguement so I won't be saying anything is fact, it's just that I personally find this...wrong. I personally find it to be them trying to sexualize or make light of Suicide. You can say that 'harley is crazy' all you want but does that really make it better? Does sexualizing the suicide of a mentally unstable person make any of this more palatable? I don't think it does.

Erm, the "4th wall breaking" was said from the start. The media sites that decided to report on it conveniently forgot to say that part. And no, they are anot alienating anyone but the people who love to be offended at everything. Other people will not give a shit and just continue to read the comics instead of trying really hard to see things that arent there and being offended about it.
And no, they are not sexualizing suicide. People that are in bathtubs, are usually naked. Do you know that?

Trying so hard to be offended at something and not even looking at the context of the story.... /sigh

The 4th wall breaking was mentioned on Twitter first as far as I know. it was not reported with the first script. Yes people get offended at stuff. Stuff that is offensive and meant to incense and anger. And those people who don't give a shit? Good for them, but I and many others aren't any of them. This things are there subtext matters. Yes I know people are naked there's not need to try to insult my intelligence. But they didn't need to draw attention to that point in the script, and you know what...SHE DOESN'T NEED TO BE KILLING HERSELF! I wouldn't have a problem with this if the Joker for instance had the rope that would be fine why? Cause the jokers fucked like that.

Yes I am looking at the context and Yes I am offended and no I didn't have to try. Stop assuming that...I don't know why i'm even making this post. As everything i've said is just going to be disregarded in favor of straw man arguments. And what story? the reporting of this event? The event itself? The event is to draw An attractive woman in various dangerous or suicidal situations. The first three I don't mind their almost comical it's the final one that gets me.

Wait, you just said you would be fine if it was Joker doing it? And im the one using straw man arguments?

And of course they have to mention that in the script. Do you even know how scripts work? Like, at all?

 

[Olas]

When I read the headline without understanding the context it sounded really random and weird, like something out some creepy fetish art. Now that I understand the context... it still seems weird that they would choose this for their selection process, of all the other panels I'm sure the comic will have, but I guess it makes some sense now.

To me it just seems like an attempt to be edgy or controversial, nothing more. Get some extra attention and publicity for their new comic.

 

[wulf3n]

Naked men are sexualized unless they're unplesant to look at which is the same case for women. C'mon, all these commercials, TV shows, and movies where a guy's shirt gets removed? Ladies clubs with male strippers?

Not necessarily, I don't think Daniel Craig's torture scene in Casino Royal is supposed to be sexy, nor is Maggie Gyllenhaal's strip search scene in Strip Search.

edit: Both are naked but it's used to show their powerlessness in the current situation, not titillate the audience.

While invariably someone will find it sexy, it doesn't necessary mean it was intended to be sexy or sexualized.

 

[SinisterDeath]

Yeah, blame society but get mad at the people who may not be a part of that society you hate. Think I wouldn't be disgusted if it were Batman, or Joker in the exact same spot as Harley killing themselves in the same 4 ways in a contest open to the public? You'd be wrong. 'm sure a lot of people would be proving you wrong.
Society's going to have to change to get rid of why you're angry at it. I don't really have much of a solution to this.

Here's the thing your missing though.

Because its Harley Quinn, and she is female. The outrage is that they are sexualizing a female committing suicide. The outrage is not because they are trying to kill Harley Quinn!
If this were batman, or the Joker. The outrage wouldn't be over sexualizing male suicide. it would be, because they were killing batman/joker!

 

[Erttheking]

So, the social justice warriors are whining again because of a comic book character killing herself in a bathtub...

..Oh noes, the horror, for some reason...

Is it just me or are accusations of someone being a social justice warrior around twice as common as accusations of sexism or misogyny? Seriously, the phrase really ticks me off. It's basically grouping everyone that disagrees with you in one group and treating their views as something that they should be ashamed for having and dismisses all of them without actually addressing them.

Atleast I am not calling them white knights?

The reason it probobly annoys people so much is because it strikes too close to home, I am sure the people whining up a storm about this KNOW that their complaints are silly and pointless, but they are just being offended for the sake of being offended or so that they can seem progressive.

And why would I take their views seriously? There is nothing there to address, it is a person commiting suicide in a bathtub. OH NOES SHE IS NUDES! is not something that needs to be addressed.

I'm sorry but I don't buy that explanation. If you use a widely used term constantly to dismiss people's arguments with a flick of a hat, acting like using the term has netted you an automatic victory and kinda looks down on them, people are naturally going to be pissed when you use it. And no, that is not what's happening at all. Many people, myself included, see a lot of problems with the gaming industry and some trends in general. A lot of people, myself included, don't think they're bad per say, but the overwhelming leaning towards certain kind of trends gets frustrating and generic. But we can't criticize them without being reduced to "being offended for the sake of being offended so that they can seem progressive" That's a major part in why that term is so frustrating. A wide variety of views on different matters are thrown under one massive generalization combined with the people using it putting words in their mouths. It's frustrating in every sense of the word.

You're doing it again. You're massively oversimplifying the views of the other side and then dismissing the simple argument that doesn't accurately reflect their views. Heck, earlier in the thread I made a bit of a fuss over the concept behind the nudity, AND the fact that Harley Quin of all people was actually going to kill herself. That was not the argument I used at all. Please don't do that.

I have used the term a grand total of once, and I didn't do it at a flick of the hat, I read most of the complaints and dismissed them and looked down on them. I don't much care that the fact that I think some people are silly annoys them.

And I am not oversimplifying most of the views. I am commenting on the majority of the whining views I have read on the topic here and on other forums.

I will answer to your post from before though seeing as how you seem to want me to. A, some insane people like to be naked, some dont, I have worked in mental health facilities before, and some do. Harley isnt one of those surely. But she is in a bath, she doesnt seem the type to hop into a bath fully clothed either.

And as for WHY she is killing herself. It is believed that the joker is dead, and she doesn't want to go on living without her 'puddin.'

Yeah, the main problem with it is that it's all over the place. The reason I complained to you about it was the case of a straw that broke the camel's back situation. Just having your arguments constantly spit on for not taking one side is just infuriating, especially when countless people are doing it.

I'm sorry, taking a dozen different posts and summarizing them all in one sentence is oversimplification.

Thank you. Well if that's the case I can kinda see that. On the other hand I can't help but question if your mind is in such a state where you're actively attempting to end your life why would you care if your clothes got wet? I guess it is kind of a nit pick when I think about it, but I guess I fall into the camp of "I wouldn't have complained if they had gone out of their way to say that they wanted her nude." I guess you can argue it's a case of a straw that broke the camel's back considering that D.C. has had a really bad history in the last few years about sexualizing their female characters. They've been doing it so much I can't help but feel like they're going to do it again here.

Ok fair enough, that makes sense. I can respect that, but I think I would've preferred the Roaring Rampage of Revenge route her character took in Arkham City.