You're right. It's all about other people being told what opinions they can or can not hold. A shitty situation no matter how you cut it.Father Time said:
Draw Harley Quinn Naked, Killing Herself, To Win DC Artist Contest
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JaredXE said:
Couldn't be more this! She WAS a strong professional until that strength was broken because she couldn't cope with the Joker's insanity, she's a 'willing' door-mat and is treated as such constantly.
The competition does seem weirdly unsavory though....
Link? Am in the only one who missed the link to the aforementioned picture? It would be helpful if someone could link me it so I can make up my mind on the matter.
I don't know where they have said that it's the only measure of someone being a capable artist, it's just the way this competition is being handled.Friv said:
And no, the Joker wouldn't be in that scenario because the Joker isn't the type of character that would be in such a situation.
Harley, though, IS the type of character who could be in that type of situation and the way to get her there is very easily imagined: The Joker is dead.
Dear DC comics did you really actually announce that you want to see a female character drawn "naked" and committing suicide in public? As part of a competition of all things? You must have known people wouldn't check up on the context...
All male DC staff should present themselves as soon as possible to their nearest regional Sarkeesian center for well being for penectomies, female staff should report to one for re-education.
All male DC staff should present themselves as soon as possible to their nearest regional Sarkeesian center for well being for penectomies, female staff should report to one for re-education.
And precisely nobody who is out there losing their shit over this contest would have lost that shit in the first place, if DC had done the exact same contest featuring the Joker instead of his sidekick.
Hang on.
Being naked doesn't necessarily mean being sexualised.
Are backless gowns in hospitals sexualising women? Not at all.
Nudity can also represent vulnerability, the shedding of a past self, strength of personality, sexual prowess, clumsiness, embarrassment, hilarity, graceful beauty, or simply necessity and practicality. There's probably more. It's all about how you interpret it.
In my humble opinion, if you're accusing an image of sexualising women, you are the one sexualising them through that interpretation of an arguably sexless image.
I get that it's bullshit that it's simultaneously completely OK to draw women naked and cultivate such ridiculous insecurity in them at the same time.
But I don't think that this is an example of that trend.
I don't need to. It is self evident, Maiev Shadowsong.Maiev Shadowsong said:
If DC wanted to put a sensually bare Joker in a steaming hot tub, with his pale creamy skin glistening with perspiration and tinged with a barest hint of a rosy hue from the heat, surrounded on all sides by functional white goods, the company would have to beat back the fan girls with a nail-encrusted stick.
No need to get defensive. I never said anyone else was wrong-- I said it depended on interpretation.Maiev Shadowsong said:
And that doesn't scream 'sex' to me.
I know I'm rather an unusual individual in these things, but to be honest I don't think it's going to scream 'sex' to very many people (male or female) at all.
I imagine that in other people it will conjure the same sort of thoughts as in me. Of people having breakdowns in showers, crying to themselves with guns to their heads. Or individuals standing nude before mirrors judging themselves to death. Or a soldier regretting the person he became in a war, shedding their uniform, and then killing themselves.
The second, of course, but the comparison you're making is not as apt as it first seems. Slight re-arrangements of words completely change the meaning of the sentence. The textual medium is missing tone and inflection and body language. He didn't write it, he said it, and he didn't say it like that:
If we were to read it out loud, the naked is more of a throwaway clarification. If it were this:
"Harley sitting, naked, in a bathtub with toasters"
or
"Harley sitting in a bathtub with toasters, naked."
I'd be more inclined to judge his intent the same way you do. To me, it seems like they want the tub to be empty, so they wanted to clarify that she should still be nude even though there's no water in there.
And what I'm saying is that their request is not out of desire for a picture to whack off to, but to express a more nuanced personal crisis through the artistic medium.
Perhaps you imagine an overweight man lecherously making the request for this picture, but imagine if you will a member of the beret-wearing intelligentsia making the same statement. Or if it had been written by a woman?
Like I said earlier, it is self-evident. There would be no great feminist outcry over this contest if it were about a man. You can add onto that certainty that if it weren't for the feminist angle then Escapist wouldn't have found it a newsworthy story, which would mean that we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.Maiev Shadowsong said:
Such is the internet, but everyone really seems to be arguing semantics. They could have specifically requested it for several reasons, least of all simply being a squeamishness or lack of creativity in some artists should they attempt to simply draw her with clothes on.
They may not necessarily be asking for TnA, they want to see how well you can capture the human form and perhaps further, sensibly censor some bits with only the tools at hand. She has to be nude, she doesn't have to be entirely exposed however. So I could see it as an opportunity to say... put a well placed rubber ducky and few soap suds in key locations that keep a rather grim situation both somewhat humerous and tasteful.
When people go bathing, they tend to be naked. When they commit suicide, I would suppose it varies. Thus emphasis on "She must be naked." but there was no demand for "Tits or gtfo".
They may not necessarily be asking for TnA, they want to see how well you can capture the human form and perhaps further, sensibly censor some bits with only the tools at hand. She has to be nude, she doesn't have to be entirely exposed however. So I could see it as an opportunity to say... put a well placed rubber ducky and few soap suds in key locations that keep a rather grim situation both somewhat humerous and tasteful.
When people go bathing, they tend to be naked. When they commit suicide, I would suppose it varies. Thus emphasis on "She must be naked." but there was no demand for "Tits or gtfo".
Ok, so I mean this is kind of stupid in general but if this were a male character, would anyone bat an eye at it at all? I mean the bathtub image is the only one remotely questionable, the rest of them are just goofy. And yeah, she's in the bath, she's probably going to be naked. They specified naked to clarify that she isn't dressed in her usual harley quinn getup.
Is it sexist? Debatably slightly, but hell, Harley Quinn as a character isn't very dignified in the first place. Her whole deal is being the sidekick to the man she's in an abusive relationship with. She's more of an anti role model than anything. Everything would be better for everyone, herself included, if she just left the joker, but she doesn't. As a reader/viewer, you're supposed to see that she's not making the right choices. Plus broken down to the simplest black and white way to evaluate her, she's a villain. You're not supposed to want to be like her.
In general Harley is much more conventionally sexist than being naked in a bath. Yes, in context it's portrayed as tragic, but honestly the character is a really easy target anyways if you want to make that claim. It's not like it's wonder woman or batgirl who are supposed to be strong and dignified.
Is it sexist? Debatably slightly, but hell, Harley Quinn as a character isn't very dignified in the first place. Her whole deal is being the sidekick to the man she's in an abusive relationship with. She's more of an anti role model than anything. Everything would be better for everyone, herself included, if she just left the joker, but she doesn't. As a reader/viewer, you're supposed to see that she's not making the right choices. Plus broken down to the simplest black and white way to evaluate her, she's a villain. You're not supposed to want to be like her.
In general Harley is much more conventionally sexist than being naked in a bath. Yes, in context it's portrayed as tragic, but honestly the character is a really easy target anyways if you want to make that claim. It's not like it's wonder woman or batgirl who are supposed to be strong and dignified.
Again, if it were batman, or the joker, the outrage would be over it being the batman or the joker killing themselves. Not because they were nude, or sexualized.
The same should be true for Harley Quinn (up to a point, because she's just flipping insane..)
As for the naked thing.
Where do they say we have to see her naked?
They say she has to be naked, but that doesn't mean we have to see it.
How would you do this?
Show her costume draped on the floor next to the bathtub.
Showing a typical women in a bathtub scene without nudity.. Sexualized? Possibly, but that should be irrelevant.
And ask your self this.
What if they requested a picture, of the Joker swinging from a noose, a chair by his feet. And his pants down around his ankles?
Or Batman, naked under his cape, in an alley, with a gun to his head.
The point I'm making here is that nudity =/= sexualized. The joker case would definitely be sexualized (as it was a sexual act) but still not exactly something normal people would find sexy.
Harley Quinn is always seen in her costume/s. Without it. Is she Harley Quinn? Why is she naked, and not in her costume? Could it be, perhaps there intent is that she is no longer Harley Quinn?
Look seriously? A singular person making a suggestion as one of the POSSIBLE picks in a drawing contest doesn't mean that the entirety of DC is sexist, come on people. It doesn't necessarily even mean that the person making the comment is sexist, you people are reading in way way too fucking much into something so small.
Yes it was badly phrased, but that's probably ALL IT WAS.
Starfires remodel means that everyone in DC is sexist.
Yes it was badly phrased, but that's probably ALL IT WAS.
Starfires remodel means that everyone in DC is sexist.
Yet still you're here, jumping to conclusions that this contest might possibly result something sexist and offensive.Trilligan said:
Why not just wait until the results? If it turns out innocent and the nudity used for non-sexual purposes then you've saved yourself both depression and the emotional drain. If it does turn out to be a vile sexualization of suicide then you'll still be depressed but not nearly as emotionally drained as there'll be a lot less arguments since you'll actually have some proof on your hands instead of merely assumptions.
There's absolutely no benefit to jumping the gun and becoming offended before something offensive has actually happened beyond righteous indignation. It's just simple self-destructive behavior if you're not even getting that out of it.
I'd take a look at yourself first before feeling dejected and disgusted by the rest of humanity.
DC really has come to mean Dumb and Crappy since infinite crisis hasn't it?
Okay, "It's not necessarily sexy" and all of that, yeah sure. And I am sure every entry will be absolutely tasteful, particularly the winning one. Sure.
It is still a company asking artists to draw a beloved character in such a total broken state that she commits suicide.
Har. Har. Har.
You can argue that it isn't sexist, that isn't objectifying or anything like that, it is still the sort of mean spirited crap that serves as a mark of the people running DC being shitty people.
Okay, "It's not necessarily sexy" and all of that, yeah sure. And I am sure every entry will be absolutely tasteful, particularly the winning one. Sure.
It is still a company asking artists to draw a beloved character in such a total broken state that she commits suicide.
Har. Har. Har.
You can argue that it isn't sexist, that isn't objectifying or anything like that, it is still the sort of mean spirited crap that serves as a mark of the people running DC being shitty people.
Now now, I'm just thinking out loud. No reason to be snippy ^_^Maiev Shadowsong said:
Besides, it's less of a discussion and more people talking to each other about why they're right and others are wrong. Par for the course with these kinds of things really.
Regarding the topic anyway, I happen to think the outcry is partly due to poor wording on DC's part and partly due to people looking for something to be outraged at. Kinda like the whole Tomb Raider nonsense.
I don't read comics but when I saw this headline I reacted with mild curiosity rather than disgust.
I already had the Looney Tunes style humour in my head before I read on because that's my understanding of Harley's character from other media.
Would this have met the same outrage if it had been the Joker's suicide? Besides gender, are his character and Harley Quinn's really so different that this act would feel out of place for one and not the other?
I already had the Looney Tunes style humour in my head before I read on because that's my understanding of Harley's character from other media.
Would this have met the same outrage if it had been the Joker's suicide? Besides gender, are his character and Harley Quinn's really so different that this act would feel out of place for one and not the other?
