Draw Harley Quinn Naked, Killing Herself, To Win DC Artist Contest

[Paradoxrifts]

Breaking news: When people go to art school is highly likely they'll be forced to draw nude female models. Call the authorities.

Actually, you've just missed the entire point of the discussion. Nudity itself was never the issue.

Nice knee-jerk.

That's complete rubbish, and to prove with a simple question.

Is there anyone here, who has already commented thus far, who is on record complaining about the way Bioshock Infinite glorified suicide? If this is truly more about the issue of suicide then anything else, where is all the condemnation by the writers over at Irrational Games?



Here I'll even jog your memories with a Youtube link. Which I've hidden behind the spoiler tag below because the spoilers don't get any bigger than the video I'm about to post.

Spoiler

There's the two main characters of the game killing and erasing themselves from existence, Donnie Darko style.​

Suicide wasn't the issue either.

In fact, I specifically said "Suicide and nudity are fine in comics." You'd know if you read what you reply to.

So offensive content is completely fine? I mean, so long as you don't personally find it offensive that is, right?

So now it is offensive? Interesting that your argument changes tact to be as contrary as possible. It's almost like you don't actually know what you are talking about and have no vested interest in the topic, but are simply entering a debate. There should be a word to describe that sort of behavior.

At this stage of the proceedings, are you really resorting to attacking the messenger?

Earlier you wanted evidence that nobody blink an eyelid if it were a man. Well, there it is. One multimillion dollar gaming experience, which you ought to have played by now, and to be frank it wasn't like I was hard-pressed to find an examples of a good-looking men with plenty of sex appeal killing themselves onscreen. Romeo & Juliet. Titanic. Donnie Darko. The Hunger Games. Armageddon. Looper. The list goes on and on, but I think that's a sufficient sampling for this discussion.

Women fucking love them some male disposability. This is not open for interpretation. This is readily apparent fact. From the helpless schmucks and mooks who appear briefly in one guise or another to serve only has traction on the male hero's ascent to worth, to hero's own final selfless act of suicide, there is plenty of media out there that tell men that their lives are less important then those of their women. Now I'll grant you that none of these male characters were naked. But all of them were sexually desirable in an open mainstream way that Harley Quinn could never be. Irregardless of how she was drawn. Whether she was drawn clothed or naked. Whether she was drawn happy or unhappy. Bathtub, or no bathtub.

And you want to object to a contest to see who can draw a four-panel gag strip that features a comic book character that most people on the street wouldn't even know the name of? On the off chance that somebody out there might draw something nasty and submit it to DC?

Well, I got news for you, Rule 34. They're already doing it. They're doing it hard.

Ohhhh. So now it isn't offensive and is quite common. Weird. Your argument seems to change to best be contrary every time you comment. Almost as if you simply want to instigate. How strange.

Furthermore, you go on to build yourself a nice little strawman by supplying evidence of a different suicide to support your point that "if this was exactly the same, but with the Joker, no one would be offended." Clearly you didn't do that on purpose. I mean, how silly would someone be to say "exactly the same" and then show something totally different lol.

I don't find any of this offensive. I have presumed that you do by the manner at which you took me to task. If there is something in this general discussion that I do find offensive it would be when people are willing to enjoy work that other people find offensive, but are then unwilling allow others to enjoy the same privilege without censure and attempted censorship.

 

[Dastardly]

Draw Harley Quinn Naked, Killing Herself, To Win DC Artist Contest

After thinking this over, I might actually have a workable reason for doing something like this. Now, that's not to say it's why they're doing it, but rather than I could partially understand if it is.

Harley Quinn is an important character. For a long time, she was a female villain-henchman that, while many considered her "sexy," was not overtly sexualized in the "seen half-naked all the time" way. She was more about personality than appearance, for at least a fair bit of her run. That has been slipping, as she has become the buxom blonde in a belly shirt and short skirt.

This may be an attempt to, in a very extreme way, find an artist who can draw Quinn without making her sexy. Provide four scenarios in which it is simply not possible to be sexy, and see who can still turn in solid work. And the last panel is something of a moat to keep out the rabble -- does this entrant's art focus on the situation, the expression... or the fact that she's naked?

Basically, they may well be looking for an artist who can return us to the old spirit of Harley Quinn. Who can draw her as the bubbly, psychotic girlfriend of the Joker, without always going for titillation -- even when she's specifically intended to be naked?

While I think they're going about it in the wrong way, that could very well be their aim. And if they came right out and said that, they'd taint the search. So let's say I half understand.

Edit for clarification: I don't think this is about sexualizing a woman's suicide. I think many misguided artists will do just that. And I think this contest may be about weeding those exact people out. I think their aim may very well be to find artists that can draw this without sexualizing it.

And why in Looney Tunes style? Because they're taking away the easy crutch for making something serious -- a dark, graphic-novel-esque tone. And they're further baiting the hook, as folks will undoubtedly use the "cartoonish" angle to exaggerate her -- ahem -- femininity.

So, I think this is about weeding out exactly the type of artists folks are complaining about. Get them to show their true colors, and then wave them out the door. I hope.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Have you ever read a DC comic featuring a woman or seen any of their female art? Expecting implicit nudity to be anything other than fan service would get you ten to the one.

This isn't art. This is DC. Align expectations accordingly.

Oh come on, now you're just reaching. They haven't even demanded that we see any skin, only that she be naked in a bathtub trying to kill herself.

It might be more insightful to examine your own reasons for jumping the gun. Why did you immediately imagine a sexualised image? How could that image even be sexy?

 

[Ticklefist]

My mistake. Withdrawn. Disregard.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

You know, a really meaningful way of doing both is drawing her naked preparing to sleep with the Joker as some kind of origin story. You can say she died that day and became his puppet, lifeless and cold.



But...no...chicken bikinis and alligators, that's the way to go!

 

[The Deadpool]

And what, exactly, are you assuming is my problem with this?
Have I said anything about it being sexist or misogynistic?

I'll bite.

I'm bothered by the 'naked' requirement,

What EXACTLY about the 'naked' requirement bothers you?

Also:

They could have wanted a different tone. But here's the thing: Nothing there is inherently sexual nor objectifying. You read the tone you want to read into it. The question isn't "Why did DC write a sexist description of a comic panel?" It is "Why are you incapable of imagining a naked woman NOT being sexualized?

Because US superhero-comics (and especially DC lately) have a bad track-record of it. (Nudity doesn't equal sexual or objectifying for me personally.)

What DID you mean by that response?

My criticism for this contest is that it was badly and confusingly worded,

a) It isn't.

b) Who cares?

c) Have you noticed you've abandoned the actual discussion? The thing that supposedly bothers you is no longer the thing you are arguing for...

 

[The Deadpool]

You know, a really meaningful way of doing both is drawing her naked preparing to sleep with the Joker as some kind of origin story. You can say she died that day and became his puppet, lifeless and cold.



But...no...chicken bikinis and alligators, that's the way to go!

That was a suit of raw chicken. Bikini was never mentioned.

 

[Lieju]

I'm bothered by the 'naked' requirement,

What EXACTLY about the 'naked' requirement bothers you?

You are taking things out of context. I mentioned that(because it was in the title), and then went on to say what other stuff I was bothered by. And how it lacked context.

As for why I'm bothered by it, well, why mention the nakedness? It gives no context for these panels, but mentions nudity.
It seems to me you just want to see people complaining about sexism. It is possible to think nudity shouldn't be mixed with suicide, you know, and not specifically complain about objectification or sexism.
I think you just want to be offended.

Also:

They could have wanted a different tone. But here's the thing: Nothing there is inherently sexual nor objectifying. You read the tone you want to read into it. The question isn't "Why did DC write a sexist description of a comic panel?" It is "Why are you incapable of imagining a naked woman NOT being sexualized?

Because US superhero-comics (and especially DC lately) have a bad track-record of it. (Nudity doesn't equal sexual or objectifying for me personally.)

So you just completely ignored the part where I said nudity doesn't necessarily equal sexualisation for me?

You asked why people draw the conclusion that they wanted her sexualised and I answered by saying that DC has a bad track-record of this. It was you who brought up sexualisation here.

a) It isn't.

b) Who cares?

c) Have you noticed you've abandoned the actual discussion? The thing that supposedly bothers you is no longer the thing you are arguing for...

a) It obviously is since people don't agree on what it was supposed to be.

b) Apparently you (and I) do. At least enough to argue about it on a video-game forum.

c) What are you even talking about? My point has been this whole time that this was badly worded and stupid.

 

[Thomas Barnsley]

Others pointed out that the week of September 10th is National Suicide Prevention Week, but the main thrust of the response was that a strong female character was being reduced to a sexualized nothing, and put in a situation that is, at best, unpleasant.

I find it odd they say Harley is a strong woman. I thought she wasn't? Isn't that the point? She's basically the Joker's willing slave in most series, and is generally portrayed as someone with low self esteem. Even when she fights Batman it rarely seems an act of strength, more just insanity.
Or am I wrong?

 

[Miss G.]

Since this is an art contest, in art, the use of the word 'naked' means they want the person(s) unclothed state to be sexualized. Had they instead just used the word 'nude', it would mean that the unclothed state is what it is (like with newborns and animals) and is to be no more a visual focus than the background they're placed in. Its basically the fundamental difference between porn and fine art; even if you've never studied art, when placed side by side you can tell the difference, though there's nothing that says some people won't get aroused either way.

In regards to the suicide, perhaps they should've better timed it so as to not be around National Suicide Prevention Week.

 

[Therumancer]

Hmmm, seems like a genius way to set the audition.

A lot of people seem to be missing the point that especially nowadays "Batman" is extremely dark, and "The Joker" and "Harley" are two totally insane characters who basically commit mass murder for fun and make frivolous, light hearted fun out of carnage. When your doing these characters right you should be looking at their antics and going
"wow, that is just F@cking wrong" both in what's going on, but how they dress it up and react to it.

Over the years "Batman" has had many dark moments, especially during things like "No Man's Land" where we had kids lost in their own mind from PTSD ("Little Orphan Andy"), and people dying trapped under rubble, thinking they are being rescued but then realizing it's someone near them and the rescuers can't hear them and they die.

If you can't do stuff like this, and want to make Batman "PC" and "Palatable" then you don't belong doing Batman nowadays, especially the darker titles and labels.

Ignoring all of the BS feminism stuff about how strong female characters can't have anything bad happen to them or be sexualized, understand that Harley is NOT a strong female character. Harley is one of the Joker's victims, her mind is not only insane and twisted in it's own right, but she is utterly obsessed with him to the point of self destruction. Despite numerous attempts with mixed results nobody has managed to get her over that in any lasting sense (though it has happened temporarily) at least not that I know of. If "The Joker" told her to get naked and off herself in a fashion he'd find entertaining she'd probably do it, of course she'd also probably on some level be expecting him to save her (which it probably wouldn't). This is more or less Harley's defining trait. Also, under the right circumstances she's pretty much exactly the kind of person who would self destruct.

While it's been a long time, I did read quite a few issues of her previous solo series which started when "The Joker" kicked her out of the gang and even had his guys trying to kill her (I believe because she had stirred some odd feelings in him which he found disturbing). During this course of events Poison Ivy wound up saving her and injected her with chemicals that enhanced all of her physical abilities to well beyond the normal limits (though as they said "it's not like Superman has anything to worry about) which is also why she can swing things like that huge hammer she's oftentimes depicted with. Unless this was changed, it should be noted that Harley might very well have a hard time offing herself using relatively normal methods because she takes a LOT more to kill than a normal person. I believe at one point it was stated that if Harley actually knew how to fight (as opposed to just being a former gymist) she'd probably be able to trash characters like Batman easily, but as things are she doesn't, and isn't exactly in the right state of mind to start training, so she winds up generally getting clobbered due to superior skill.

I'd also point out that if in the new series they want to really play up Harley's abilities, such as saying she actually has something akin to a healing factor, she's exactly the kind of whack job to do something like Marvel's Madcap (or was it Foolkiller? It's been a while) where she hosts a talk/stunt show where she does things that would
kill anyone else for lulz and survives.

At any rate, I have to admit my brain is still kind of recoiling to hear anyone saying Harley is a strong female character. I mean seriously, to make that argument you have to totally not know anything about the point of this character.


On a final note I'm going to say that when it comes to the issue of suicide in comics, I think anyone who has an issue with it at this point should pretty much just consign themselves to not reading comics, or much of anything at all. Like any medium over time pretty much any gritty subject matter is going to be covered in it, especially in titles trying to do something edgy. Comics have a long history of suicide for shock value, back when I used to read them regularly (I'm more of a casual reader at best nowadays) we had moments like Iron Man's villain "The Iron Monger" pretty much taking off his helmet, putting his own hand beams to his head, and doing himself in (a somewhat different ending than the movie), Gladiator once tried to off himself by flying through a sun in protest over a change of power in the Shi'ar galaxy (and failed because he was too powerful for a mere sun to kill him... well at least as he was being written at the time, nowadays he seems much weaker), and of course the ending of one of the all time classic Marvel Crossover events has Korvac successfully defeating the combined forces of ever hero acting together as an army before killing himself over love.... That's just off the top of my head DC has it's moments as well like the Barry Allen version of "The Flash" killing himself in "Crisis On Infinite Earths" to slow down The Anti-Monitor by taking out one of his devices (though I suppose that's debatable since as I remember it he transcended the limits of the speed force, becoming pure energy which was then propelled back in time as the lightning bolt that struck his lab giving him his powers, making him a sort of "time loop" rather than actually dying).

 

[Therumancer]

Draw Harley Quinn Naked, Killing Herself, To Win DC Artist Contest

After thinking this over, I might actually have a workable reason for doing something like this. Now, that's not to say it's why they're doing it, but rather than I could partially understand if it is.

Harley Quinn is an important character. For a long time, she was a female villain-henchman that, while many considered her "sexy," was not overtly sexualized in the "seen half-naked all the time" way. She was more about personality than appearance, for at least a fair bit of her run. That has been slipping, as she has become the buxom blonde in a belly shirt and short skirt.

This may be an attempt to, in a very extreme way, find an artist who can draw Quinn without making her sexy. Provide four scenarios in which it is simply not possible to be sexy, and see who can still turn in solid work. And the last panel is something of a moat to keep out the rabble -- does this entrant's art focus on the situation, the expression... or the fact that she's naked?

Basically, they may well be looking for an artist who can return us to the old spirit of Harley Quinn. Who can draw her as the bubbly, psychotic girlfriend of the Joker, without always going for titillation -- even when she's specifically intended to be naked?

While I think they're going about it in the wrong way, that could very well be their aim. And if they came right out and said that, they'd taint the search. So let's say I half understand.

Edit for clarification: I don't think this is about sexualizing a woman's suicide. I think many misguided artists will do just that. And I think this contest may be about weeding those exact people out. I think their aim may very well be to find artists that can draw this without sexualizing it.

And why in Looney Tunes style? Because they're taking away the easy crutch for making something serious -- a dark, graphic-novel-esque tone. And they're further baiting the hook, as folks will undoubtedly use the "cartoonish" angle to exaggerate her -- ahem -- femininity.

So, I think this is about weeding out exactly the type of artists folks are complaining about. Get them to show their true colors, and then wave them out the door. I hope.

I wrote a much more in depth series of comments on this which hopefully won't get ignored in light of what I'm going to say here... but well...

My thoughts on the specific challenges are that they are meant to capture the essence of a surprisingly difficult character.

From an artistic perspective drawing Harley nude is important because storylines might require her to be out of costume and that means being able to get those body contours right outside of a unitard which is much easier to draw. Harley is sexed up, that's part of the character (some people obviously need to learn to live with this) but you don't want her to look like her body changes based on what she's wearing, you need to have the same body in a skin tight outfit, naked, and wearing other clothing. Oddly I'd imagine this challenge exists in part because of some of the stories I heard about how artists had trouble doing Harley right in the "Batman" video games which is why they went with a different look, which is fine when your dealing with an elseworlds story, but when your dealing with an established continuity where she needs to fit very specific pre-established standards, you need an artist who can meet them.

As far as the other stuff, understand that Harley is totally insane, and pretty much everything she and The Joker do has a kind of "Loony Toons" vibe to it. These are people who run around running a carnival of murder where a garish appearance disguises lethal gadgets. They are supposed to be prancing around, laughing and joking like cartoon characters while they are murdering tons of people (including little kids, the elderly, and pretty much every target people find offensive... not because they single them out, but because they kill everyone, oftentimes for no other reason than they think it's fun... their big weakness being that they are always reaching for an ever-larger spectacle, in the comics if The Joker steals money for example, it's usually to finance a plot that pretty much comes down to killing a lot of people in some "amusing" way for the lulz of it).

Let's be honest, if The Joker told Harley to get naked in a tub and electrocute herself, how do you think she'd look? It would probably be a lot like described, as opposed to depressed or whatever like a real suicide, she is really that far gone. The entire point of a scene like that is to look at it and go "wow, that's F@cked up" and if it gives you wood at the same time you feel a bit queasy your kind of seeing the world through the eyes of the Joker there, which would be the point of a scene like that. It's SUPPOSED to be wrong, everything about these characters is supposed to be wrong.

I'll also say that going by the way Harley's last solo series started (which I said a little more about in my other post) it doesn't seem unreasonable that it might start with The Joker actually asking her to kill herself, and her doing it to make him happy. Him not stepping in to save her at the last moment might also be why she strikes out on her own again before the inevitable character-defining obsessed reunion when the new series ends. As I pointed out in my previous post, in the actual comics they gave Harley actual super abilities (enhanced physical abilities), which to my knowledge they never removed in the comics continuity (and if they did could return in a time of stress). It's quite possible she could seemingly off herself for The Joker, especially via something like electrocution, be left for dead, and actually recover from it despite the honesty of the attempt.... and as F@cked up as all this sounds, it would perfectly fit the characters in question. If messed up things bother you, why are you reading Batman stories featuring these characters, never mind a solo series about Harley Quinn?

Also unlike my other post, I'll flat out say something I figure most people won't. As entertaining as reading the antics of super villains is in comic books, if either The Joker OR Harley Quinn (despite being a victim in an absolute sense) actually existed I'd actually be cheering if either of them offed themselves. I mean seriously, stop and think about not only how many people these two have killed, but how they have gone about it, including some very sadistic gimmicks like getting people to laugh themselves to death. Batman hasn't always been able to rescue their victims, though he has thwarted a lot of their more elaborate plans. Frankly, it would save someone the time of shooting them, which would have happened a long time ago (Batman's objections aside) if comic book logic didn't apply. About the time they gassed a building and took out a few hundred people (which has happened more than once I believe) I suspect one of the arresting officers would have had an "accidental firearms malfunction" in transit. I mean we are dealing with a special breed of crazy that thankfully doesn't exist IRL. The point is, I wonder if the people decrying this suicide are even bothering to think about who this character is... I mean seriously. It might be less entertaining for readers, but the whole point is that life in the DC universe would probably be a lot better without her and her boyfriend periodically breaking out of Arkham to murder people in huge numbers.

 

[Kyrdra]

This picture feels kind of relevant:

Spoiler

[http://www.deviantart.com/art/Quinnicide-399525619]

Basically an artist drew what he thought the panels would look like and interestingly the most revealing is her normal outfit. Strange that

 

[keniakittykat]

I think this idea is brilliant. And the whole "suicide is funny" joke it a total callback of 1930's comedy. It's really hard to nail that, and I think for a character like Harley Quinn it's the best route to take a talent search like this.

 

[Warachia]

This picture feels kind of relevant:

Spoiler

[http://www.deviantart.com/art/Quinnicide-399525619]

Basically an artist drew what he thought the panels would look like and interestingly the most revealing is her normal outfit. Strange that

I like that, it's pretty funny, though I'm not sure where she's supposed to be in panel three. Great detail from the artist though, I love how bored the crocodiles look, if there were thought bubbles they'd probably say "If we ignore her she'll eventually go away."

OT: In my opinion, this whole thing is ridiculous, it's ridiculous for DC to phrase the comment the way they did, though I'm not surprised given how they draw a lot of their heroes, and these are the same people who thought it was important to show the T&A of a character in a power drill torture scene. It's ridiculous how worked up people get about this thing in particular (mass murder? That's fine, suicide while naked? That's out), and it's ridiculous that DC thought the Harley Quinn suicide would be a good idea in the first place.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Okay let me ask here... What's the problem?

- people do commit suicide in bathtubs
- when they do it, I assume they're quite often naked

Also, AFAIK, Harley is crazy. Crazy people often run around naked.

Plus it's jut one of 4 panels which are supposed to show her suicide attempts.

So... Well?

Oh, right. 'Naked female suicide' makes for great headlines. No matter that it's just one of 4 scenarios (and the most realistic). No matter that the topic is friggin' SUICIDE. No, it's because it's a) female b) naked. BAN THAT SHIT!!!

BTW if you consider this 'sexualized', ask any paramedic who was called to a real naked female suicide how turned on they were by the dead blue body they found. I think not much.

Yeah, it's pretty much not ok just because it's a woman. Just like it's not ok to have a cross eyed mentally handicapped (background character, of all things) that is female, but it's ok to have a million mentally handicapped male leads on every other cartoon. Social justice at it's finest.

 

[O maestre]

when was harley ever a strong individual female character?
and unpleasant situation? she was Jokers GF, his bottom ***** who knows what kind of stuff she went through. Suicide would be a walk in the park.

and comics being over sexualized!!!? no really omg won't someone please think of the children, how coud this have happened all of the sudden comics are overly sexual what ever will we do?

This is ridiculous, and a big fuss over nothing.

 

[EstrogenicMuscle]

Next contest, DC asks Harley Quinn be raped by tentacles to win contest.

Hey, I'm not saying clothless people should never be depicted committing suicide for emotional or intellectual value or whatever. But it's pretty suspect.

It's be pretty unusual for them to ask for this of a male character. And is suspect and has a suspicious history behind it that they're doing it with a female character like Harley Quinn. It's like when something looks super suspiciously racist that you wonder how someone couldn't see how problematic something would look, like with people depicting Barack Obama as a monkey, and then going "it's not racist, and besides, I had no idea monkey was a racial slur, I'm colour blind!" or "would drawing a white person as a monkey be racist?".

If you're not aware of how bothersome it looks to be drawing Obama as a monkey, you're either really ignorant of history, or a racist. The same goes for how problematic this situation sounds.

 

[Dastardly]

This picture feels kind of relevant:

Spoiler

[http://www.deviantart.com/art/Quinnicide-399525619]

Basically an artist drew what he thought the panels would look like and interestingly the most revealing is her normal outfit. Strange that

Yeah, it's well drawn and all... but I don't get even the slightest hint of Harley Quinn from this. It's just a generic cleavage-heavy pretty girl. And I think there's gonna be a lot of that in this process, really -- people focusing so much on the scenario that they forget to draw the character in a recognizable way.

 

[BurningWyvern90]

Wow, didn't think I'd be in such a minority here.

My annoyance doesn't come with the fact that it's a woman or she's naked or whatever; honestly, more than anything, it's the way they described the panels. It sounds so...out of character. I know she's kind of Joker's punching bag, but she does at least strike out on her own and join Ivy in some things (at least in the animated series; can't remember if I'd read any of the comics or not...). I don't know that I'd consider her a strong female character, but she's not completely helpless either. I mean, okay, the first three I can see as being quirky and something Harley'd do, but that last one is so unnecessary (not because of the nudity), and unnecessarily dark.

But more than that.

We shouldn't be arguing about the logistics of the suicide (whether she's naked, whether it's in character, etc...)

We should be talking about why the hell are they asking the public to draw this in the first place.

Right; why this of all things? Why is this the thing that is most informative about the artist they're trying to find, or why is it so important for them character-wise? Why not switch it up? Harley in different situations where the outcome is different? Or with Joker or Ivy or something? There are so many things you could do to change it up, and I feel like that would give you a better idea of what the artist is capable of.

Basically, DC could have done with some forethought about how they were wording things, I think.

Also, I had a friend who committed suicide a few months ago, so excuse me if I find the last one especially tasteless.