Dubbed anime. Why is it so hated?
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I've talked to voice actors before in conventions and asked them this very same question. Now I'm not being a dick who is pointing out their bad acting, but moreso pointing out how come they sound good most of the time, but when in the subject of anime, it's so awful?
Josh Keaton [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005079/] and Laura Bailey [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1154161/] are some of my favorite voice over artists and yet they have had their misses. They explained it pretty thoroughly to me. Here is the gist of some of the things they taught me:
Anime in English speaking countries is a niche audience. The target demographic includes kids who don't care or know about terrible voiceovers, and otakus who will listen to the original Japanese audio track anyway. So companies in charge of distribution and dubbing have little incentive to spend time and money on a translator with a decent grasp of the English language and scriptwriting or on a cast.
In regards of the translations, there are supposedly companies that just use babelfish or software to do the translations, which of course leads to non-sensical Engrish results. The only reason this just slips by us, is that it eventually makes it through the hands of several English speaking persons who edit them as little as they could before handing it in. Think Engrish dubs are bad now? Think "Jill Sandwich" and "Shilly Shally" is the worse it gets? You should see what the scripts look like before the recordings!
Then comes the part of the voice actors. The companies don't invest enough care, nor do they have such a budget to invest much of the time. Decisions are made by people who have little understanding of drama or English.
In normal most ADR sessions studios prefer all the actors to be in the same recording room when their characters are together in a scene. This dynamic makes the performances more natural and allows them play off one another. Sometimes cameras are placed, so animators can use their faces and gestures for reference.
With though, it is common for the actors to not even get a proper script let alone be in the same room together. Many times an actors just gets a list of lines they need to speak into the mic: alone. Much of the time, besides the lines themselves there is no context to how they are said or what is happening in the scene. The better than average Anime scripts would just tell one to read the line with a certain emotion, or accent. Making voice over artists perform in dozens of different accents in one session is very common due to the aforementioned limited funding and also the personal friendships that develop within a working community. Studios will just use the same handful of actors repeatedly and make them do the work of hundreds. This forced and unnatural strain on the vocal cords, have sometimes made actors lose their voice and put them out of work temporarily.
Josh Keaton told a group I was among that he almost had an Orson Welle's Frozen Pea moment [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_Peas] due to an incident where he was made to do the voice of every other male character in some Anime. It had the bads of every wrong previously stated, no descriptions of scenes or actions. Characters that he didn't play omitted. It was filled with Japanese to Engrish transliterions that made absolutely no sense. When he tried to give input on better ways to phrase the lines, ways that would actually make sense in our language, the recording director (who was Japanese) just forced him to read the scripts word for word. Scripts that sometimes are already bad in their native Japanese.
Josh Keaton [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005079/] and Laura Bailey [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1154161/] are some of my favorite voice over artists and yet they have had their misses. They explained it pretty thoroughly to me. Here is the gist of some of the things they taught me:
Anime in English speaking countries is a niche audience. The target demographic includes kids who don't care or know about terrible voiceovers, and otakus who will listen to the original Japanese audio track anyway. So companies in charge of distribution and dubbing have little incentive to spend time and money on a translator with a decent grasp of the English language and scriptwriting or on a cast.
In regards of the translations, there are supposedly companies that just use babelfish or software to do the translations, which of course leads to non-sensical Engrish results. The only reason this just slips by us, is that it eventually makes it through the hands of several English speaking persons who edit them as little as they could before handing it in. Think Engrish dubs are bad now? Think "Jill Sandwich" and "Shilly Shally" is the worse it gets? You should see what the scripts look like before the recordings!
Then comes the part of the voice actors. The companies don't invest enough care, nor do they have such a budget to invest much of the time. Decisions are made by people who have little understanding of drama or English.
In normal most ADR sessions studios prefer all the actors to be in the same recording room when their characters are together in a scene. This dynamic makes the performances more natural and allows them play off one another. Sometimes cameras are placed, so animators can use their faces and gestures for reference.
With though, it is common for the actors to not even get a proper script let alone be in the same room together. Many times an actors just gets a list of lines they need to speak into the mic: alone. Much of the time, besides the lines themselves there is no context to how they are said or what is happening in the scene. The better than average Anime scripts would just tell one to read the line with a certain emotion, or accent. Making voice over artists perform in dozens of different accents in one session is very common due to the aforementioned limited funding and also the personal friendships that develop within a working community. Studios will just use the same handful of actors repeatedly and make them do the work of hundreds. This forced and unnatural strain on the vocal cords, have sometimes made actors lose their voice and put them out of work temporarily.
Josh Keaton told a group I was among that he almost had an Orson Welle's Frozen Pea moment [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_Peas] due to an incident where he was made to do the voice of every other male character in some Anime. It had the bads of every wrong previously stated, no descriptions of scenes or actions. Characters that he didn't play omitted. It was filled with Japanese to Engrish transliterions that made absolutely no sense. When he tried to give input on better ways to phrase the lines, ways that would actually make sense in our language, the recording director (who was Japanese) just forced him to read the scripts word for word. Scripts that sometimes are already bad in their native Japanese.
Besides the obvious it also can completely destroy the way the character is suppose to be presented to us, ex: clannad (the whole cast) the male MC we are introduced is turned from a nihilist into an angsty twat, our female MC is turned from lowselfesteem and sufferer of manic depression to an oblivious manic depressive.
phoenix352 said:
Gilhelmi said:
And y'see, stuff like this is part of the problem. Anime fanatics go on and on about the importance of cultural purity in the work (being that anime is in no way influenced by the west), and yet so many of them seriously don't have a clue what they're watching or who it's made for. Maybe if they knew the language, it'd be a bit more clear?JoeNightmare said:
And I like the undertones I always hear about how, for example, One Piece is apparently well-suited for the purposes of international cultural education, as opposed to it just being another overcaffeinated show that its intended audience (little boys) could accept without having to think too hard.
Yes yes, the Naruto dub went the extra negative-mile and kept the "jutsu" and the "rice balls" and all that piddle and crap that has no relevance to the story. But having Naruto say nonsense at the end of his sentences (for the first half-season or so)? Unthinkable. (Also his voice is annoying; the Japanese voice actress didn't make him a nasally brat at all.)
Dubbing companies are not animators, and no country puts child actors in the majority of its animated shows because it makes long runs problematic.Shia-Neko-Chan said:
I don't get the whole "Japanese acting sounds better" thing.
It all sounds the same to me. Could be because I don't understand the language, and as I study it more, I might begin to spot just why it's better.
But for now, frankly, I prefer English dubs precisely because I get the story in a language and mannerism I understand. The blunt, loud, direct nature of English is something I totally get, and it's something I totally prefer in my storytelling. As much as I love the sound of Japanese, and as much as I love studying it in order to become fluent, I understand Western attitude better than Eastern ones because it's what I grew up in. Of course, it's a given that the acting must be good.
But, less than the indirect nature of Japanese, what bothers me the most is the fans' unreasonable insistence on having things AS CLOSE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT LITERALLY TRANSLATING THE GRAMMATICAL STRUCTURE. I'm bilingual and when my friends ask me what a phrase in Spanish means, I'll tell them "There's no exact word for it in English, but it basically means..." And it seems like a lot of fan translators don't even try to relay the concept of a word or phrase, and think that authenticity means neglecting to give meaning to a word in a way that isn't intrusive.
/Rant incoming.
Take a scanlation of the manga Berserk, for instance. I was so pumped to read this because I was ready to catch up to the official release, and I find that Guts' name is translated as "Gattsu." In later volumes, it changes to "Gatts" until they finally settle for "Gutts." I mean, really? The word "gatsu" means "month," but what's more likely? That Kentaro Miura wanted him to be named "Guts" for how vicious he is? or Gattsu for...well...what? I mean, Guts isn't a great name, but again, in a world of Cascas, Rickerts, Farneses, Pucks, Griffith's, Schierkes, and other such Western sounding names, what's more likely? Guts for "vicious, atrocious warrior who bathes in the blood of his enemies?" or Gattsu for..."month."?
Along the same lines, the classic "Raito" and "Light" Yagami. What did Tsugumi Ohba mean when he gave him that name? Nonsense katakana randomly put together, or did he mean to say, in the best way he could, "Light," which encompasses the self-centered belief that he is a savior?
Or take a joke or cultural reference in a funny anime. I will always and forever take a wholly different joke over the old "Japanese joke on the bottom subs, explanation on the top subs as to why the pun/cultural jab is relevant/funny." To me that's like a shit comedian going "LOL GET IT IT'S A JOKE, HAHA HA HAA HAHAH HA. HA." at the end of his shit joke. It's intrusive, it wrecks the joke, and it's completely lacking in professionalism.
Or the old "dattebayo." What the hell is a freaking dattebayo? As grating as Naruto's voice is, I prefer "Believe it." Snappy, encompasses the nature of his character, and ISN'T NONSENSE.
/Rant done.
Stupid niggling crap like that makes me hate fan translations with a passion. I feel like a lot of them are too far up their asses with their "commitment to authenticity." I will always risk it with a shit dub before I try a fansub.
It all sounds the same to me. Could be because I don't understand the language, and as I study it more, I might begin to spot just why it's better.
But for now, frankly, I prefer English dubs precisely because I get the story in a language and mannerism I understand. The blunt, loud, direct nature of English is something I totally get, and it's something I totally prefer in my storytelling. As much as I love the sound of Japanese, and as much as I love studying it in order to become fluent, I understand Western attitude better than Eastern ones because it's what I grew up in. Of course, it's a given that the acting must be good.
But, less than the indirect nature of Japanese, what bothers me the most is the fans' unreasonable insistence on having things AS CLOSE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT LITERALLY TRANSLATING THE GRAMMATICAL STRUCTURE. I'm bilingual and when my friends ask me what a phrase in Spanish means, I'll tell them "There's no exact word for it in English, but it basically means..." And it seems like a lot of fan translators don't even try to relay the concept of a word or phrase, and think that authenticity means neglecting to give meaning to a word in a way that isn't intrusive.
/Rant incoming.
Take a scanlation of the manga Berserk, for instance. I was so pumped to read this because I was ready to catch up to the official release, and I find that Guts' name is translated as "Gattsu." In later volumes, it changes to "Gatts" until they finally settle for "Gutts." I mean, really? The word "gatsu" means "month," but what's more likely? That Kentaro Miura wanted him to be named "Guts" for how vicious he is? or Gattsu for...well...what? I mean, Guts isn't a great name, but again, in a world of Cascas, Rickerts, Farneses, Pucks, Griffith's, Schierkes, and other such Western sounding names, what's more likely? Guts for "vicious, atrocious warrior who bathes in the blood of his enemies?" or Gattsu for..."month."?
Along the same lines, the classic "Raito" and "Light" Yagami. What did Tsugumi Ohba mean when he gave him that name? Nonsense katakana randomly put together, or did he mean to say, in the best way he could, "Light," which encompasses the self-centered belief that he is a savior?
Or take a joke or cultural reference in a funny anime. I will always and forever take a wholly different joke over the old "Japanese joke on the bottom subs, explanation on the top subs as to why the pun/cultural jab is relevant/funny." To me that's like a shit comedian going "LOL GET IT IT'S A JOKE, HAHA HA HAA HAHAH HA. HA." at the end of his shit joke. It's intrusive, it wrecks the joke, and it's completely lacking in professionalism.
Or the old "dattebayo." What the hell is a freaking dattebayo? As grating as Naruto's voice is, I prefer "Believe it." Snappy, encompasses the nature of his character, and ISN'T NONSENSE.
/Rant done.
Stupid niggling crap like that makes me hate fan translations with a passion. I feel like a lot of them are too far up their asses with their "commitment to authenticity." I will always risk it with a shit dub before I try a fansub.
I think a lot of it is leftover rage from back in the days when English dubs were almost always even worse than the original Japanese. Nowadays though I'm under the impression that studios are usually taking more care with dubbing and are turning out less crap.
I admit, I only watched a couple of episodes after R's run completed (it took so long for them to put it up), and only because I was a complete Sailor Saturn fanboy. I did find the "cousins" thing to be amusing (especially since they really didn't even bother to change any of the subtext). Didn't find the name changes to be all that odious (though I almost never use the dubbed names).Naheal said:
...and wasn't that season supposed to be shit, anyway? Haven't heard much good about Stars. Most I've spoken to seem to consider it the final dropping point where the anime crossed the line into "horrific adaptation of the manga."
This.Yureina said:
The actual act of dubbing isn't so bad - you take a Japanese language cartoon and voice over with English-speaking actors. Great concept. They often are just lacking in execution; bad translation, bad acting, sometimes plain completely changing the dialogue and story, or character names. Straight-up subtitles don't have this issue, and some Japanese actors do a really fucking good job - the actor of Kyon on Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya has nailed the art of sarcastic annoyance. His English counterpart? Not so much.
Sometimes they're done really well though. I prefer Cowboy Bebop's English Spike Spiegel. And sometimes? I think people just really like to feel like this is a different cultural thing they're watching, literally a foreign film... rather than just another ol' cartoon.
According to some drive-by on the last page, it means "Damn it."AyreonMaiden said:
Yyyyyyyep. "I'M AN AWESOME NINJA AND I'M GONNA BE A THE KING NINJA SOME DAY! DAMN IT!" It's Japanese you see, so it automatically makes sense.
The original mangaka was not trying to make Naruto simply not-terribly-bright. He was thinking more "Aspergers plus severe retardation." Indeed, that comes straight from the literalist Western fans, and you and I both know they wouldn't just be giving us the letter of the line at the cost of the spirit of it.
Stars was awesome.NeutralDrow said:
killing Mamoru off
it was a bit of a hint that the kiddy gloves were coming off. That said, they did screw up some of the adaptation from the manga to the anime (which... that fits for the whole fucking series, really. I had a campaign based upon the "past world" of the manga simply because I preferred the tone there. For instance, Miss Moon's not afraid to kill someone in the manga. In fact, she's the one who kills off three of the four big bads...)
And they brought back the lesbian brigade, Saturn, and Pluto. That won points in my book.
To be fair, i think they made him white to avoid the racism thing.SomeLameStuff said:Because dubs frequently screw things up in the transition over. They frequently shoehorn jokes into serious moments, which is incredibly annoying.
Also, censorship, which 4Kids is notorious for doing.
Sometimes even the music gets screwed up. Let's hear a set of battle music shall we?
And of course, the actual dubbing can be screwed up the arse. Yes, I know some animes like Cowboy Bebop are better dubbed, but how often does that happen?
A black guy with giant lips and nose? kinda asking for trouble
Anime dubs are usually haphazard, largely because they're being Americanized by those dubbing and are sometimes receive a half-@$$ed job as a result. To be fair, not all anime are like that and are just as interesting to see in both English or Japanese. But not everything translates well and, because of that, usually result in quirks. People pick up these quirks and it turns them off.
But that's the least of it. Another problem is that people dubbing this have this problem. To them, the term child means the same as idiot, and based on that alone, they think they can get away with anything, or at least make the mistake of treating children as idiots and handle anime with a level of maturity that shows in their work. However, even a child knows if you're cut, you bleed. (Various anime) They'll pick up on things that people will think are too subtle for them to pick up on and talk about it. Worse yet, people who aren't child who are fans of the shows (or at least the Japanese dubs) will see it and think it an insult to the viewers. It is, to be blunt, seen as a degradation of the intelligence of the viewers as a whole and a good way to ruin what some people view as a work of art.
And trust me, some companies do go out of their way to Americanize something once they get their hands on it. 4kids is an example of the extreme. They've replaced Japanese food terms with donuts or sandwiches, or otherwise replacing the foods completely. (Pokemon) They'll take Japanese jokes and turn them into extremely corny and not all that intelligent puns, even on kid standards. (One Piece) They've even on some cases taken characters' reactions and turned them into something that is completely out of context. (Naruto and One Piece) They'll gloss over Japanese cultures, replacing their values with ours. One could argue that this is just to make the material easier to relate to, but at the same time, I think it's a bad idea not to expose kids to other cultures, especially since they're going to be awash in the American culture anyway for what could be most of if not all their lives. 4kids got so bad they even earned the disapproval of the Japanese. You know you've gone too far when you've pissed off another country in the process.
Funimation is also an offender, though they seem to be changing recent years. Still, their older projects show signs of problematic Americanization, sometimes going as far as replacing Japanese locations to completely unrelated ones (Case Closed/Detective Conan). Being a Canadian, I find it embarrassing to see memorable locations from Kyoto being passed of as a part of Alberta.
Voice acting is a problem, too. Sometimes, the actors or actresses will read their lines and sound wooden as a result, just barely trying to sound into the material. (Sailor Moon) Or they'll convey their roles in a way that makes the characters sound cheesy or unintentionally strange. (Kenichi: The Strongest Disciple) And truly, there are voice actors who take great characters and replace their voice boxes with a diesel engine or a squeaky toy. (Disgaea) In it's own way, it's kind of sad, because many of these characters can be truly likable, too.
Race is sometimes a tricky issue as well, because there are plenty of people who all too easily take offense at the slightest quirk. People sued the ones dubbing Pokemon because of Jinx's coloring alone. And once this occurred it started a chain effect that resulted in a lot of recoloring in other animes, including Dragonball Z's Mr. Popo and that one Buggy Pirate from One Piece. Now, I have to admit that African Americans have had hard times in the U.S. They've earned a great deal of respect with what they've endured here. However, I believe that it's not helping the issue if we tiptoe too much around the matter. I mean, what's the point in putting them in anime at all if every instance of them is just going to be glossed over by painting them a different color? Is that not racism as well? I have to wonder.
Getting back to the matter at hand, there are some great dubs out there. Such examples are Inuyasha, Dragonball, Gundam Wing, etc. But sadly, when a person encounters bad or lackluster dubbing it can easily turn them off. It can turn what could've been a good experience into a severely watered down one. Because of this happening on too many occasions for some people to stomach, dubs have gotten a bad reputation. That's why we have so many complaints about it.
(P.S.: I'm not racist!)
But that's the least of it. Another problem is that people dubbing this have this problem. To them, the term child means the same as idiot, and based on that alone, they think they can get away with anything, or at least make the mistake of treating children as idiots and handle anime with a level of maturity that shows in their work. However, even a child knows if you're cut, you bleed. (Various anime) They'll pick up on things that people will think are too subtle for them to pick up on and talk about it. Worse yet, people who aren't child who are fans of the shows (or at least the Japanese dubs) will see it and think it an insult to the viewers. It is, to be blunt, seen as a degradation of the intelligence of the viewers as a whole and a good way to ruin what some people view as a work of art.
And trust me, some companies do go out of their way to Americanize something once they get their hands on it. 4kids is an example of the extreme. They've replaced Japanese food terms with donuts or sandwiches, or otherwise replacing the foods completely. (Pokemon) They'll take Japanese jokes and turn them into extremely corny and not all that intelligent puns, even on kid standards. (One Piece) They've even on some cases taken characters' reactions and turned them into something that is completely out of context. (Naruto and One Piece) They'll gloss over Japanese cultures, replacing their values with ours. One could argue that this is just to make the material easier to relate to, but at the same time, I think it's a bad idea not to expose kids to other cultures, especially since they're going to be awash in the American culture anyway for what could be most of if not all their lives. 4kids got so bad they even earned the disapproval of the Japanese. You know you've gone too far when you've pissed off another country in the process.
Funimation is also an offender, though they seem to be changing recent years. Still, their older projects show signs of problematic Americanization, sometimes going as far as replacing Japanese locations to completely unrelated ones (Case Closed/Detective Conan). Being a Canadian, I find it embarrassing to see memorable locations from Kyoto being passed of as a part of Alberta.
Voice acting is a problem, too. Sometimes, the actors or actresses will read their lines and sound wooden as a result, just barely trying to sound into the material. (Sailor Moon) Or they'll convey their roles in a way that makes the characters sound cheesy or unintentionally strange. (Kenichi: The Strongest Disciple) And truly, there are voice actors who take great characters and replace their voice boxes with a diesel engine or a squeaky toy. (Disgaea) In it's own way, it's kind of sad, because many of these characters can be truly likable, too.
Race is sometimes a tricky issue as well, because there are plenty of people who all too easily take offense at the slightest quirk. People sued the ones dubbing Pokemon because of Jinx's coloring alone. And once this occurred it started a chain effect that resulted in a lot of recoloring in other animes, including Dragonball Z's Mr. Popo and that one Buggy Pirate from One Piece. Now, I have to admit that African Americans have had hard times in the U.S. They've earned a great deal of respect with what they've endured here. However, I believe that it's not helping the issue if we tiptoe too much around the matter. I mean, what's the point in putting them in anime at all if every instance of them is just going to be glossed over by painting them a different color? Is that not racism as well? I have to wonder.
Getting back to the matter at hand, there are some great dubs out there. Such examples are Inuyasha, Dragonball, Gundam Wing, etc. But sadly, when a person encounters bad or lackluster dubbing it can easily turn them off. It can turn what could've been a good experience into a severely watered down one. Because of this happening on too many occasions for some people to stomach, dubs have gotten a bad reputation. That's why we have so many complaints about it.
(P.S.: I'm not racist!)
Ah yes...the old sub vs dub argument isn't just applicable to anime but it's also been a topic of debate for foreign films for quite some time (you think "I'll take a potato chip, and eat it" is a hilarious case of awful dubbing, try watching any dubbed Bruce Lee film [Quest of the dragon's almost unwatchable]).
Personally I prefer subs, unlike English-speaking films (or films in your native language) you're able to fill in a few more blanks like a book. With dubbing it can be out of sync, the voice-actors will have no notion of what's going on on screen (and it shows) and it's sort of degrading to the original actors (I was watching Downfall yesterday, the film used in all those Hitler parodies, and even though I only know a few scraps of German the emotion in the delivery really enhanced the film, something often lost in the dubbing process). However not all dubs have been bad, I watched Steamboy and Nausicaa in the valley of wind (is that the correct title?) with dubs and because they were both fairly high-budget animes they had some skilled/prominent actors covering the voices, not to mention the synching was spot on.
Personally I prefer subs, unlike English-speaking films (or films in your native language) you're able to fill in a few more blanks like a book. With dubbing it can be out of sync, the voice-actors will have no notion of what's going on on screen (and it shows) and it's sort of degrading to the original actors (I was watching Downfall yesterday, the film used in all those Hitler parodies, and even though I only know a few scraps of German the emotion in the delivery really enhanced the film, something often lost in the dubbing process). However not all dubs have been bad, I watched Steamboy and Nausicaa in the valley of wind (is that the correct title?) with dubs and because they were both fairly high-budget animes they had some skilled/prominent actors covering the voices, not to mention the synching was spot on.
That's a very well though out opinion and I appreciate it fully, but if you get a chance could you respond to my post on page 2.AyreonMaiden said:
I get what you mean about pointing out the humor in cultural jokes seems a little arrogant but perhaps the strongest part of my argument is that whats lost in translation is the writing. It's something people so often ignore, while the plot on the whole may be important it's how the scenes are written which makes something good, it's the writing and culture and context that makes characters believable and when animes are westernized (because lets face it there's less of a market for the purists) the original writing is lost. Translators are not writers they are translators trying to make something make as much sense as it can to a Western audience, there is no shame in this but in a more Western context...
The Hobbit (fuck the Lord of The Rings haha) written by any other writer would be a very different book. Another persons writing style would lose the whimsical charm that shines through in JK Rowlings writing style, arguably though another writer could do a better take on JK Rowlings story =P But translators aren't professional writers and editors could never give the same care as somebody writing an original piece of work could... It's a shame but it is all about losing what made the original material so great.
That said, going back to your take on jokes. I do feel that some animes which are based around humour are better told in a Western style because unfortunately reading subtitles of a Japanese jokes is not as funny as hearing it in English, thankyou Full Metal Alchemist.
In conclusion, I watch and respect both and judge for myself which is better, English or Japanese.
EDIT: Is it just me or is there a huge hatred of English voice acting? Seriously! English voice actors can be bad but so can Japanese voice actors, I suppose they have a stronger anime culture so there is a greater expectation thus greater skill level placed upon voice actors but I think the issue boils down to culture, linguistics and writing and all that fantastic stuff that gets lost in translation before it comes down to "English people can't voice act".