Duke Nukem Forever and 'Rape'

[Levethian]

intelegent people of the world (like yourself) will see it for the utter offensive crap that it is, and reject it.

Might get into hot water with that comment. Moral relativity has nothing to do with intellect. Helps if you spell it right too

 

[Valiance]

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I guess I'm too conservative because saying things like "I got killed at the used car lot" also kind of bothers me. But that's a personal thing. This thread was about Rape, so that's why I commented about that. If you ask about how I feel about murder, it really, well, it's strange.

Murder in games is generally speaking, not very emotionally painful. If we're doing the murder, it's justified. Our enemy is demonized. When's the last game where you killed an enemy soldier and then have a montage about his life? Maybe he got a draft letter and didn't even want to fight. How about a touching scene of his wife kissing him and clinging to him as he went off to the war, just doing his job, and what the country asked of him? Then you see his family crying at his funeral, his children hungry, his better half struggling to keep up payments on the house, whatever it is.

Murder doesn't end up being an emotionally touching thing because you can press a button and it's done. Rape, by design, is disheartening to watch. Some people can say murder is justifiable, but they can't think of any cases where rape is justifiable. It's not being dismissed the same way because society views it as a worse thing. Why doe they view it as a worse thing? I don't know.

Also, rape pretty much includes torture, while murder might not necessarily include it.

 

[Biodeamon]

Every time somebody gets mad and says that videogames are corruptring people and are only for pyschopaths(which offends me even more, being one) the terrorists get one more step closer to winning.

 

[Wolfram23]

The whole "rape" thing is a bit ridiculous. At the beginning of that level he's talking about, when you first find some of the girls, one of them teases that "I though it was safe to swallow".

 

[GeorgW]

RE: Jim Sterling Desctructoid review [http://www.destructoid.com/review-duke-nukem-forever-203658.phtml] & the resulting moral outrage

As much as I like Jim Sterling, he's issued some Destructoid flame-bait, and I've gone and bitten, sorry.

Associating Duke Nukem Forever with criminal rape and calling everyone who likes the game ?sociopathic and mentally maladjusted? is something of an overreaction. While Fox news and Mary Whitehouse would undoubtedly applaud the sentiment I don't think it does anyone much good (Except Jim, our champion of morality), inhibiting many people from enjoying what is essentially a fun, harmless, stupid game.

An alien parasitic infestation is not 'rape' in the sense that he would have us understand it, any more than someone with schistosomiasis has been raped, whether or not someone inappropriately and unamusingly tells them 'you're f**ked'. - Except that would be far worse because schistosomiasis is a nightmarish, real affliction while being infected by alien organisms is not real nor relevant to anything real and certainly not linked to real-world rape culture. At least I didn't notice a link. Maybe I just don't think about rape enough. Perhaps if I dwell on rape more I will see rape all around me, just like those people who can't look at towers without projecting phallic imagery.

Duke is a farcical parody through and through. Players know it and adapt their sensibilities to take this into account, why can't reviewers? And it would be totally out of character for Duke to condone rape anyhow, as a passionate long-standing 'defender of babes'.

Taking the Hive scene so very seriously and slamming it for condoning and laughing at sexual violence may be part of an industry-wide agenda to distance itself from Duke Nukem Forever, perhaps to pursue the status of 'games as art'. But for whatever reason the witch-hunt aspect to some of the reviews has been a little disheartening.

[sarcasm] Having said that, Jim's outrage reveals an in-depth emotional attachment to the Holsom Twins that speaks volumes about Duke Nukems rich character writing and portrayal. Given the broad definition of art as 'made with the intention of stimulating thoughts and emotions', no higher praise can be offered to a game. So, Destructoid, thank you for lending Duke Nukem Forever such artistic credibility.[/sarcasm]

Anyway, divisive nonsense aside, it's good that it's finally been released. There is promise for Duke Nukem 5, so long as Duke doesn't have what little personality he has beaten out of him by the tirade of moral authoritarians enjoying their 15-minutes of clear conscience.

EDIT: a poll self-destructed, asking 'were you offended'.

Wait a minute... I liked the game, and even wrote a review [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.291283-Hypnotic-reviews-Duke-Nukem-Forever#11569732] why.Does that mean I'm sociopathic and mentally maladjusted? I've lost all respect for Jim.
I will say however that I disliked that level as well. Mostly cuz it was too long and got boring, but also because it's distasteful. But I didn't really mind the distastefulness, I mean, it's only a game.

 

[Levethian]

I guess I'm too conservative because saying things like "I got killed at the used car lot" also kind of bothers me.

I'm similar - I don't like to reference criminal acts to exaggerate things. There are better ways to do that.

I'm not sure this thread is intended to be 'about rape'. We are hopefully all agreed that it's horrid. I more concerned with whether Duke Nukem Forever has anything whatsoever to do with it, and whether or not this shitstorm benefits anyone. All it will achieve is to:

i) alienate those who enjoy the game.
ii) spread the offense around.

Not like I'm helping, mind. Hmm.

Does that mean I'm sociopathic and mentally maladjusted? I've lost all respect for Jim.

I... I think it does. Me too. I know, I had no idea either.
I found the level boring too. That and some areas in the Dam.

 

[Operation Genesis]

Personally, I'm rather disgusted by this particular scene. Sorry, Duke, but you're going to have to try A LOT harder than that to get me to laugh at something as awful as rape. Then again, in no way, shape, or form was this game made for me. It's nostalgic for a time when I wasn't playing video games and a love letter to a character that I find intensely annoying. Luckily, I solved all of my problems by not buying it or playing it in any fashion.

 

[Verlander]

Spoiler: Your post

I saw the scene in question on youtube... and I was repulsed.
I'm sorry, but I can't just pretend that everyone offended by it was some kind of moral guardian. The fact is, this was a level where naked women were weeping in pain and agony and misery with rape being STRONGLY implied... and they were joking about it.
Duke sees two women about to die in the process of being forcibly impregnated and says:
"Looks like you're fucked!"

Which in turn, made me shiver with disgust. It's one thing to have a woman be used as a 'flag' in a redone 'capture the flag' gametype, it's another thing altogether to ridicule and in some places almost eroticise (all the big naked boobs throughout the scene) sexual violence against women. I don't like it, and I don't think it should have been a part of the game.

I'd go as far as to say that I don't think it should have been a part of any of the OLD Duke Nukem games either, common sense would dictate that this is wrong and it should still be wrong regardless of what year it it. Racism is always racism whether it's in the year 2011 or 1975, and eroticized, 'humorous' depictions of rape are always misogynist no matter what year it is.
Perhaps people complained less because it wasn't as graphically detailed or because back then we weren't as concious about social issues as we are now. I don't know why Duke Nukem Forever is getting criticism for it now, but I do know that it deserves it.

What this level tells me is:
A. Someone on the team decided to have a pointless jarring shift between dicking around and grotesqu imagery.
B. Someone on the team saw this and decided it wasn't a problem.
C. That someone at some point looked at this and decided to fill it with jokes, because apparently the depiction of women being tortured was just sooo funny.

It wasn't funny, it wasn't clever and it wasn't needed. It was vile and even though I was looking at it on a youtube screen I still felt like my eyes needed washing. Look, I'm fine with offensive humor or clever controversial issues being made into jokes. But only if said jokes were well told and had some degree of intelligence behind them.
But this is not either, there is no joke beyond just looking at women being tortured with strong implications of rape and there isn't even much of a brain behind it.
Here I'm just looking at a big AAA game shouting 'LOL RAPE!' and seemingly expecting me to laugh. No Duke, I won't laugh.

Christ guys, not everything that happens in games deserves to be defended. If people want to hate on this to distance themselves, and the game industry as far away as they can from this debacle. I'm all for it.
It's better then us all praising it and wanting to see more.

Oh, one more thing.
Here are a few of the comments by the people on the youtube page defending that scene (I took the liberty of censoring the really bad bits):

"HAHAHAHAHA, KEEP CRYING YOU PUSSY LITTLE BITCHES. OH WAIT, DUKE NUKEM ISN'T EVEN FOR YOU. GTFO!"

"Duke Nukem has always had explicit content, all of you n*ggers are fucking retarded."

"well, you and the other 6million people can suck my dick."

"I don't give a shit bro. This isn't even the whole game & kids like you should stay away from Duke Nukem, shit you don't know anything about. Don't expect everyone to be on your side like these other whiteknight faggots. Since when did I mention I was a guy? Dumbass, even though I am.

"This is fucking awesome, I can't wait to play this. Best premise ever."

"No, you're pretty much just a pussy."

"What an ocean of ******'s tears this video's comment section is - If you can't handle the Duke, do us all a favour and BLOW IT OUT YOUR ASS"

"lol what sort of ****** would have a problem with this level.were your balls cut off as a child or something?"

"People need to learn to stop taking fucking video games so seriously. And stop being a bunch of feminazi pussies whenever a woman gets hurt or killed in fictional media."


Can you really blame people for NOT wanting to be associated with the kind of people who would defend this? If nothing else, having a huge big AAA game like this that depicts graphic rape with a smile on its face doesn't really do wonders for the game's industries already less then perfect image.

EDIT: Also it's worth noting I don't often agree with Jim Sterling, but I have to agree here.

I don't disagree with you, but you get comments like that on videos of kittens playing. Youtube commentary is the nadir of human intellectual bankruptcy. You can't make any judgement on people with a different opinion to you by bringing up youtube comments as an example.

OT: The Duke Nukem team set out to offend as much as possible. After all, that's what the original was famed for. If you hype something up for year, they either have to deliver it the most ott way possible, or fail. There was no way this game was going to win any prizes amongst gamers over 12, they should have let it rot in development hell.

 

[Blackpapa]

Jim already made up his mind about DNF before it was even released. It looks like now he's trying to find arguments to support his position.

I find this whole discussion to be pretty absurd. Humor is subjective. Was this a "tasteless" joke? Pretty much yeah. Just like the rest of DNF, DN3D or the little-known Manhattan Project.

The Duke Nukem franchise is the last place to look for sophisticated humor. This is by design.

Now I'll admit I didn't play DNF but I did see the oh-so-terrible scene. A crude joke, 'tis all there is to it. I found Jim's reaction much more funny.

 

[snowbear]

I don't get it...

Every game has its target audience, If your easily offended then clearly this game is not for you. I found other games much more offensive than this. The scene is somewhat mundane compared to much that is seen in cinema these days.

If you don't like the horror genre then you don't go and watch Saw 3D. If this was a film then no one would complain, people who didn't see it would just say "its not my cup of tea" and forget it even exists.

Why do games get different treatment? This whole "it should never have been put in the game, because it might be too offensive for some" idea is like saying they should take the aliens out of Aliens because it might not be suitable for everyone.

Take it for what it is a crude joke. Don't find it funny? then don't laugh... and move on

 

[ShadowKatt]

its just a game, and everybody needs to lighten up.

case closed

Games are an artform, now. They've been recognised up there with music, movies, and good ol' fashioned paint and canvas.

We worked hard to get games taken seriously enough to be considered art. Don't backpedal and play the "It's just a game" card now, because it isn't anymore.

 

[solidstatemind]

its just a game, and everybody needs to lighten up.

case closed

Games are an artform, now. They've been recognised up there with music, movies, and good ol' fashioned paint and canvas.

We worked hard to get games taken seriously enough to be considered art. Don't backpedal and play the "It's just a game" card now, because it isn't anymore.

This argument doesn't work, however; you're making the assumption that because some music, movies, and even video games are considered art, all music, movies, and video games are art.

That just isn't the case: I will fight anyone that claims that a Uwe Boll movie- any of them- is Art. There are plenty of albums- even those created by talented musicians- that I would certainly not call 'Art'.

DNF is clearly a 'B-movie' of video games. It is, at times, tasteless. But if you want protected speech status for video games, you're implicitly supporting this type of content, as much as you're supporting the Super Columbine Massacre 'RPG' (which I find far more odious, personally).

Bottom line, you can't say "Protected speech, except for..." because the moment you create exceptions, you're creating the possibility of adding to that list based upon who dislikes a specific item, regardless of agenda or reason.

No, if you don't like it, feel free to evangelize against consumers buying it, not developers making--- after all, if consumers vote strongly enough with their wallets, this sort of content will become a rarity.

 

[snowbear]

its just a game, and everybody needs to lighten up.

case closed

Games are an artform, now. They've been recognised up there with music, movies, and good ol' fashioned paint and canvas.

We worked hard to get games taken seriously enough to be considered art. Don't backpedal and play the "It's just a game" card now, because it isn't anymore.

I agree, but why is this artform treated so differently to others. crude/bad paintings/movies dont get subjected to the same level of critique as games. When they dont like a certain movie they dont go out of their way to get it banned. When was the last time you saw fox news calling for a film to be banned becuase its not suitable for minors...

What I find worse is that now even us so called "gamers" are complaining about content in games. It makes me a sad panda.

No, if you don't like it, feel free to evangelize against consumers buying it, not developers making--- after all, if consumers vote strongly enough with their wallets, this sort of content will become a rarity.

Are you sure thats a good thing, every art form needs the bad to apreciate the good, and after all good/bad content is all subjective... and anyway I know a good few people who actualy enjoyed DNF, is that not allowed?

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

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Well...

I think there is an issue here.

The secene in question sounds like something that would IMPROVE a artistic work, to give an idea of how evil the villains are, or provide a emotional ground point.

Duke nukem is the opposite of that though, it's a paraody. It's not ment to be taken seriously. It's a joke.

Let us remember that 90% of the game or so was already down by 3d realms, so its safe to say that the scene was made YEARS ago.


By the looks of it, that secene was TRYING to be emotionally disturbing. What duke said is in character, though: what would you have expected him to say?

If that secene REALLY disgusted you, shouldn't that say that duke nukem, of all games, managed to get you emotional grounded in it?

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I'm not sure where I stand on this.

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watching it on youtube.

It seems to me like it was trying to be very serious, and emotionally involved, but they still wanted the game's humor in it. If we remember, Duke is kind of an asshole: it's what HE would say.

I'll admit even I smirked : the game manages to blend the humor in without changing the mood to much.

I don't even see him make a smart ass remark about the women: heard him say "Not even I can save you now". and "Sorry babe, it's better this way".

The TONE he said it in was a soft, paled, and guiltily mumble. It was characteristically un-duke like.

And Duke, of all people, saying, "Not even I..." He's gave up; he admitted his own faults; thats shows a duke as a more human character, not just a physical embodiment of pure pride and ego like Jonny cage or Vegeta.

That ONE line; where he makes a comment in a sarcastic tone; those were two girls he seemed to know. He then got INRAGED after they died.

It also seems to me to be a Aliens parody. Both show sexually-inspired violence in the forms of aliens, duke even makes a comment about silicon based life; the xenomorphs are silicon based life forms.
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I am starting to think that this is the reason it's getting low scores; I played it, not up to the hive yet. I am having a blast.

Almost everybody else I have talked to felt the same way. The game looks great graphically, (only talking animations seem off), it feels fun, etc.

Didn't Jim describe him as a "Fan of tastelessness" and then go onto support a school-shooter game? Seems inconsistant to me jim, infact it seems like you go with the opinion that will troll the most people and grab the most attention.

"I'm a lover of tasteless humor and offensive content, and as such, I've found it incredibly difficult to condemn this game as so many gamers have willfully done. In fact, it's my worry that anybody who does condemn this game is a hypocrite, because ultimately, what is School Shooter if not something that does what most games do, without the weak moral justification?"

I don't have to point out much of a hack he is. He does it for me.

I agree that his `180 degree turn seems odd...


I will also say that I really like the visual style of the level, I hope that the Halo CE's remake's flood levels look like this.

 

[Grell Sutcliff]

well they were being raped but oh well, they tried to play it off as a joke and failed plus they killed off two girls that they didn't have to kill but oh well it's entertainment I just watched the scene for the first time on youtube a few seconds ago I was not offended at all I was however sad you couldn't save them and thought Duke was a douche but there was nothing really wrong with the scene the only problem with the game is that it sucks

 

[Alucard788]

Forgive me for this but I have to ask...

What would it actually take to offend some of you? Do you just shrug and feel nothing over everything? What is your 'line'? What does it take to make you feel ill and grossed out?

I'd really like to know because I find it, ever so slightly, disturbing that only a real handful of us guys had a strong negative reaction to the hive.

Edit to add: I also find it interesting that people have said 'We all can agree rape is bad'. Well ok but then how can you find this funny and rape not funny?

I know it seems like I'm making a big deal out of all of this but I do find it really interesting the entire split that is happening over this game... mainly among us males. There seems to be a real divide between "Hah that was so funny!" and "Dear god that was sick and disturbing." With the joking side often belittling and mocking the side that is offended.

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

Forgive me for this but I have to ask...

What would it actually take to offend some of you? Do you just shrug and feel nothing over everything? What is your 'line'? What does it take to make you feel ill and grossed out?

I'd really like to know because I find it, ever so slightly, disturbing that only a real handful of us guys had a strong negative reaction to the hive.

I felt a negative reaction, but as I explained, I feel it was done on purpose, and well executed.

I did not feel ill, or grossed out, I thank the internet for being immune to that.

Like I said, I did feel it was a disturbing secene, but i wouldn't describe it as gross.

 

[Grell Sutcliff]

Forgive me for this but I have to ask...

What would it actually take to offend some of you? Do you just shrug and feel nothing over everything? What is your 'line'? What does it take to make you feel ill and grossed out?

I'd really like to know because I find it, ever so slightly, disturbing that only a real handful of us guys had a strong negative reaction to the hive.

me I'm not sure the definition says to cause displeasure so yeah it did offend me by that deffinition but when people usually say that somethings offense they're saying it's far more worse than that and should be banned but I will never say that about anything because it keeps humanity from progressing and becoming better when said things are made illegal under the grounds that it's offensive plus to strengthen that argument people can be offended by anything like women being equal to men or that people of different skin colors are equal

 

[Electric Alpaca]

Yeah...honestly I stayed away from this game upon release XD I mean, I understand that women have been used at the 'prize' and have been treated pretty badly in a lot of games, but usually it's not too offensive. However, I've known since I was a kid exactly what kind of audience games like Duke cater to...and as a female gamer, it definitely ain't me.

Seeing the scene for myself though, it is really disgusting. These women are being depicted as being in real pain and suffering against their will. It's not like it's some weird BDSM hentai game where the more they moan, the more they want it.

The fact that it's played so straight like this and yet the game feels the need to joke about it disgusts me. I'm not going to say that it's wrong to make jokes about rape because I've laughed at quite a few of them myself (and I believer that everything can and should be made fun of)...but Duke is neither smart enough nor talented enough to pull it off and actually get laughs out of it.

It's offensive and I don't doubt that a lot of other women will be turned off by this premise alone.

Echoing my sentiments exactly; Juvenile at best, downright offensive and industry soiling at worst.

I'm a strong advocate for anti-censorship, but at the same time: something that is allowed to exist doesn't necessarily need to exist.

It can be argued that Duke is so far out there it can't really be taken seriously - but at the same time doesn't that reflect a poor attitude; that scenes so obviously designed to cause offense and spark debate can be taken with a pinch of salt? Done right anything can be funny (maybe not a few things), but this is far from done right.

And as you put; as a female gamer this is a no go zone. However you have the intelligence to not allow this one thing to discolour the medium for you. Other potential candidates won't necessarily have the same mindset and therefore be turned off completely.

Its definitely raised a little flag over Gearbox and their future endeavours for me in any case.