Duke Nukem Forever and 'Rape'
- Thread starter Levethian
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As far as I can tell, no one is contesting this. Hundreds of reviewers, professional and nonprofessional, hate the game, especially for things like tasteless and offensive rape jokes. Its fans make illogical defenses that no one listens to, and personally seem to enjoy it. No one anticipates Gearbox changing anything via patch (or doing anything right), or for the game to become illegal. We're just spouting that they did a horrible job.Abandon4093 said:
You are claiming that the people in this thread are saying that this game will make murderers and rapists. I'm simply calling you out. Show me where someone has said that or shut up about it.Abandon4093 said:
Where the hell did I say that? Hell, I advocate against every game being made for artistic sake. I say to you again, cite your source if you're going to call me out like that.Abandon4093 said:
Nice assumptions there with once again no proof to back it up. I have played DN3D and I know what it was (and still is come to think of it) like, and I enjoyed it. And I never even brought up any other games or the industry, you did with your blanket statements (including but not exclusive to the "high horse" remark to anyone who doesn't share your opinion). And while the presence of games like this does not detract the value from any other games (and once again, I never said it did so cite your source of me saying so), the image of Duke Nukem, which was originally a "typically chauvinistic male" certainly is ruined by making pathetic jokes of rape. As I said before (and yes, I did actually say this) Tasteless I expect, but this pole vaults the line between tasteless and sick.Abandon4093 said:
Wait wait wait. Are you saying that I, as a consumer, have no right to demand better than the crap that is put out there? That I just have to suck it up or never deal with the industry again? News flash: I have EVERY GODDAMN RIGHT to demand better! Who gave you the right to tell me that I just have to sit there and take the crap that shoved out without voicing my discontent?Abandon4093 said:
This right here is what's wrong with the current state of the industry. It's not the people demanding better, it's people like you saying "suck it up because they don't have to accommodate you." The consumers are the backbone of the industry. Without the consumers, there is no industry. There are tons of other companies that have closed their doors because they made piss poor games and those are far better than this drivel. Hell, sales numbers for this game are relatively abysmal so I guess those who demand better are clearly showing you up, huh?
That's right, spout off how I have no right to voice my opinion yet you seem to think you are allowed to without repercussions. Maybe you should get over yourself and realize that other people can speak their mind as well.Abandon4093 said:
I don't think all that many people are offended, and for many of those Jim Sterling's review and the resultant whirlwind of propaganda was the catalyst, rather than The Hive scene itself. Certainly many of the offended people seem to have never played the game.
Metacritic user score for DNF is 6.1 - Not great, but there doesn't seem to be an outraged consensus. And it still makes it more favoured by users than Dragon Age 2 sitting at 4.2 (cheap shot, sorry)
I still think Duke has his tongue so deeply embedded in his cheek that it's difficult to find offence. Of course, as we've clarified, we are entitled to our offence.
But I don't like being called sociopathic and mentally maladjusted for my outlook. I guess that's my main gripe here
Metacritic user score for DNF is 6.1 - Not great, but there doesn't seem to be an outraged consensus. And it still makes it more favoured by users than Dragon Age 2 sitting at 4.2 (cheap shot, sorry)
Not sure 'Alien' comparisons are helpful. The key there is that the audience wasn't intended to laugh at John Hurt, but instead be horrified.Abandon4093 said:
I still think Duke has his tongue so deeply embedded in his cheek that it's difficult to find offence. Of course, as we've clarified, we are entitled to our offence.
But I don't like being called sociopathic and mentally maladjusted for my outlook. I guess that's my main gripe here
Yeah...honestly I stayed away from this game upon release XD I mean, I understand that women have been used at the 'prize' and have been treated pretty badly in a lot of games, but usually it's not too offensive. However, I've known since I was a kid exactly what kind of audience games like Duke cater to...and as a female gamer, it definitely ain't me.
Seeing the scene for myself though, it is really disgusting. These women are being depicted as being in real pain and suffering against their will. It's not like it's some weird BDSM hentai game where the more they moan, the more they want it.
The fact that it's played so straight like this and yet the game feels the need to joke about it disgusts me. I'm not going to say that it's wrong to make jokes about rape because I've laughed at quite a few of them myself (and I believer that everything can and should be made fun of)...but Duke is neither smart enough nor talented enough to pull it off and actually get laughs out of it.
It's offensive and I don't doubt that a lot of other women will be turned off by this premise alone.
Seeing the scene for myself though, it is really disgusting. These women are being depicted as being in real pain and suffering against their will. It's not like it's some weird BDSM hentai game where the more they moan, the more they want it.
The fact that it's played so straight like this and yet the game feels the need to joke about it disgusts me. I'm not going to say that it's wrong to make jokes about rape because I've laughed at quite a few of them myself (and I believer that everything can and should be made fun of)...but Duke is neither smart enough nor talented enough to pull it off and actually get laughs out of it.
It's offensive and I don't doubt that a lot of other women will be turned off by this premise alone.
What about all the phrases that use "murder" or "kill" as a hyperbole? Do the victims of attempted murder, or the family members of homicide victims, find those words offensive when they're used to exaggerate? I've certainly never seen that happen. And am I trivializing their deaths when I say "I got murdered on that test?" How is it different for rape?Valiance said:
What bothers me is the number of people who seem to think that rape is worse than murder. The reason I find this relevant is because most of us in this thread have played tons of games where you blow people's heads off, which is objectively far more violent. So to see the same people get oddly indignant over this "implied rape and torture of women" in a video game, I have to question how genuine these feelings are, because to me, it comes off as shameless white knighting. That one guy who said he "shivered with disgust" at this must've thrown up all over the place during "No Russian."
I mean, obviously, being against rape is a very easy position to take, but considering most gamers are fine with the various levels of violence that the medium embraces, how come this isn't being dismissed with the typical "it's harmless and you shouldn't take it seriously" response?
Look, if Jim Sterling finds the subject matter of your game offensive, you've fucked up, plain and simple. I keep seeing fans of the game tout the fact that DNF is satirical/farcical/not-meant-to-be-taken-seriously, as if we need reminding. We know it's a joke. But sometimes people tell bad jokes. Saying that it's not meant to be taken seriously doesn't automatically make it exempt from any critical thinking or honest review.
Tracy Morgan recently told a joke about how if his son was gay, he'd stab him to death. This took place in a comedy club and was prefaced by countless other jokes Morgan had told that night - the audience knew it was a joke, yet they still got upset. Why? Because it was a stupid joke that was unredeemed by it's lack of cleverness or actual humor.
There are people in this world who like racy jokes and political incorrectness. Offensive jokes can be good if they're funny, or perhaps have a point to make. But you can't just cover up a low-quality joke by saying "don't worry, it's just a joke!"... and honestly, if you have to constantly remind people you're telling a joke, you're doing it wrong.
But seriously, if Duke Nukem is a defender of babes, then I'm a defender of icecream for putting it in my freezer to eat later instead of leaving it on the counter to melt.
Duke doesn't rescue women out of the kindness of his heart or because of some romantic old-fashioned chivalry, he rescues them because he can use them later for sex. The entirety of his character is defined by his ego and self interest, and if he happens to rescue some women, it's a result of that self-interest.
If you enjoy Duke as a character and wish to defend him from the naysayers, great, do that. But defend the character as he is; you do the game and character no justice by dressing them up to fit society's moral standards. That defeats the whole point of defending it in the first place.
This reminds me of the talk Randy Pitchford gave comparing Duke to Hugh Hefner, a quote that could basically be paraphrased as "Duke's not sexist, he loves women." It's silly. There's no reason to have a character like that if you're just going to constantly apologize for him.
In the end, is DNF going to turn a bunch of people to raping and murdering egotists? No.
Does that automatically mean the game has literally anything to offer the industry or the world? Definitely no.
Tracy Morgan recently told a joke about how if his son was gay, he'd stab him to death. This took place in a comedy club and was prefaced by countless other jokes Morgan had told that night - the audience knew it was a joke, yet they still got upset. Why? Because it was a stupid joke that was unredeemed by it's lack of cleverness or actual humor.
There are people in this world who like racy jokes and political incorrectness. Offensive jokes can be good if they're funny, or perhaps have a point to make. But you can't just cover up a low-quality joke by saying "don't worry, it's just a joke!"... and honestly, if you have to constantly remind people you're telling a joke, you're doing it wrong.
Not that it really matters, but if an alien did happen to kidnap me, stick things in my vag without my permission and forcibly impregnate me, I'd probably describe it as "rape".Levethian said:
Levethian said:
[link]http://youtu.be/H-JACPoF-Wk?t=6m35s[/link]
But seriously, if Duke Nukem is a defender of babes, then I'm a defender of icecream for putting it in my freezer to eat later instead of leaving it on the counter to melt.
Duke doesn't rescue women out of the kindness of his heart or because of some romantic old-fashioned chivalry, he rescues them because he can use them later for sex. The entirety of his character is defined by his ego and self interest, and if he happens to rescue some women, it's a result of that self-interest.
If you enjoy Duke as a character and wish to defend him from the naysayers, great, do that. But defend the character as he is; you do the game and character no justice by dressing them up to fit society's moral standards. That defeats the whole point of defending it in the first place.
This reminds me of the talk Randy Pitchford gave comparing Duke to Hugh Hefner, a quote that could basically be paraphrased as "Duke's not sexist, he loves women." It's silly. There's no reason to have a character like that if you're just going to constantly apologize for him.
In the end, is DNF going to turn a bunch of people to raping and murdering egotists? No.
Does that automatically mean the game has literally anything to offer the industry or the world? Definitely no.
But when it was 'tastefully' done in a deep meaning in Alien/s no one gave a fuck did they? Hell only a few geeks and a Cracked article got it. That and of course the people who helped create the franchise. Yeah that's right, the 'Hive' level was a parody of a sort to Aliens.
Oh and I did get a good laugh from that joke
Oh and I did get a good laugh from that joke
Regardless of whether or not you think rape jokes are acceptable, that scene is still a complete mess and really highlights the chief problem with Duke Nukem Forever; it's trying to be to many things at once.
Look at that scene. We can see it's trying to invoke disgust in the player through graphically detailed body horror. It's supposed to fuel the players drive to take down the aliens after seeing the horrible things they have done. However, mixed into this scene are juvenile jokes. We have Duke Nukem cracking puns at women who are about to explode with alien babies and slapping wall tits while tortured women moan in the background. The scene is trying to be funny, creepy, horrifying, and light-hearted all at the same time.
You have any idea how much that fucks with tone? You can't put all those things into one scene and expect it to work. The player gets conflicting feelings, they feel like they should be laughing right now but at the same time they're supposed to be disturbed. You can't have it both ways Gearbox. Either you make a genuinely disturbing scene or you keep making dumb tit jokes. Trying to do both at the same time creates one big mess.
Personally I don't take Duke Nukem Forever seriously enough to be offended by anything in it, but this scene speaks volumes about what is wrong with that game.
Look at that scene. We can see it's trying to invoke disgust in the player through graphically detailed body horror. It's supposed to fuel the players drive to take down the aliens after seeing the horrible things they have done. However, mixed into this scene are juvenile jokes. We have Duke Nukem cracking puns at women who are about to explode with alien babies and slapping wall tits while tortured women moan in the background. The scene is trying to be funny, creepy, horrifying, and light-hearted all at the same time.
You have any idea how much that fucks with tone? You can't put all those things into one scene and expect it to work. The player gets conflicting feelings, they feel like they should be laughing right now but at the same time they're supposed to be disturbed. You can't have it both ways Gearbox. Either you make a genuinely disturbing scene or you keep making dumb tit jokes. Trying to do both at the same time creates one big mess.
Personally I don't take Duke Nukem Forever seriously enough to be offended by anything in it, but this scene speaks volumes about what is wrong with that game.
Personally. when i heard the line i thought Duke sounded kind of sad when he said the "you're fucked." line.
That may have been me projecting but subjectively, i thought the scene was vulgar and mildly offensive, but i thought that was the point.
That may have been me projecting but subjectively, i thought the scene was vulgar and mildly offensive, but i thought that was the point.
Hrm. I think treating the subject humorously is tricky. A rape depiction as horror is 'acceptable' because rape cannot be seen to be glorified or promoted when it is portrayed in a horrific manner.Abandon4093 said:
When it's portrayed, and then laughed at, it becomes more difficult.
I agree, though I saw a nice post on the reasons behind why that is somewhere...i11m4t1c said:
"Human suffering is more disturbing than human death. We can empathize with suffering and pain. We can't empathize as well with death. It's common sense that it would elicit a more emotional response. We understand what it's like to be hurt or suffering. We pity those that we feel are helpless. That's why humans tend to show moral outrage over someone kicking a dog more than they do someone kicking another person. The dog appears more helpless and doesn't have the faculty to understand the situation.
I would find it easier to watch someone hang than I would to watch someone get their fingernails ripped out while they scream in pain. I'm sure you would too."
(Post by 'Wrighteous86' on Giantbomb forums)
Except that isn't actually depicted in the game. All you see are women, wearing underwear or mutated, bound to slimy tree-stumps. The primary offender is the imagination of the beholder, as no rape was depicted. At least I didn't see any..MasochisticMuse said:
I don't think I dressed him up much - babes represent his drive; the reason he begins fighting in the first instance is to save the babes. For himself, perhaps - but it's out of character for him to laugh at rape when he's been fighting hard to keep them safe from aliens.MasochisticMuse said:
Here is the thing, I agree with you, and I saw the imaturaty of this game and said "no thank you", but I will defend it as a freedom of speech. I am 100% against censorship, so if a game developer wants to make crass "rape-jokes", they should be able to. Now the flip side of that coin is that the intelegent people of the world (like yourself) will see it for the utter offensive crap that it is, and reject it. And by the poor sales numbers and harsh reviews, I think the gaming community has made it's stance clear.Vrex360 said:
So there is a point of debate here, and I think overall the gaming community agrees with you, that this stuff is utter crap and offensive, but I would never go so far to say it should be banned (which was not the overall message of your post, I know, I'm just speaking out against censorship). If people start saying "oh, you can't do that, it's in poor taste, or it's offensive" the line of what is considered offensive will continue to move to the extreme conservative censorship that Hitler enforced. A large leap to be sure, but freedom of expresion and speech has very little grey area. Either "everything" is allowed, or "nothing" is. It is a double edged sword. But those who play with the overtly offensive and immature nature of free expresion, usually reap what they sew. And I think the game developers are reaping it now. The positive is that if artist/creators are allowed to push the boundries and have full artistic freedom, some wonderful things can be made (that some people will call offensive, but the more intelligent people will say is amazing). A good recent example is the movie "Black Swan", I'm sure there are some conservative meat heads who would say the movie is smut, I personally saw it as amazing. I'm sure there are better examples, but that is the first one that came to mind.