EA Hosting Panel on Homophobia in Gaming

[YuheJi]

Why must we go to this extreme so you can put "I am gay" in your profile and I can put "I am a proud anti-gay NAMBLA Satanist" in mine. If you are grown up enough to make that decision shouldn't you also be mature enough to understand how having that in your profile might offend someone else.

With that statement, you are assuming that a gay person stating their sexuality is naturally offensive. It is not fair to compare "I am gay" to "I am anti-gay", as one is linked closely with hate. A better comparison would be "I am gay" with "I am straight". Do you think "I am straight" would be found offensive? Probably very few people, if any, would object to that. Doesn't that reveal a lot about our society still, and especially about people on Xbox Live? The fact that people still look down so much upon gays?

 

[squid5580]

Why must we go to this extreme so you can put "I am gay" in your profile and I can put "I am a proud anti-gay NAMBLA Satanist" in mine. If you are grown up enough to make that decision shouldn't you also be mature enough to understand how having that in your profile might offend someone else.

With that statement, you are assuming that a gay person stating their sexuality is naturally offensive. It is not fair to compare "I am gay" to "I am anti-gay", as one is linked closely with hate. A better comparison would be "I am gay" with "I am straight". Do you think "I am straight" would be found offensive? Probably very few people, if any, would object to that. Doesn't that reveal a lot about our society still, and especially about people on Xbox Live? The fact that people still look down so much upon gays?

Say I am a christian. I was raised in a god fearing home. I believe homosexuality is a sin. Therefore it is a part of who I am. Just as much as being gay is to you (just follow along here I am not a christian and I am not saying you are gay). So why is it that you get to express who you are without consequence but I am not? Opening up the door can let alot of demons out. I could easily put proud member of the KKK since 1999. You say it is ok to express who you are so can I. The only real difference here is my views and actions offend you. And the absolute bottom line is these statements do nothing for our purpose on XBL. To have fun.

 

[Alex_P]

And the absolute bottom line is these statements do nothing for our purpose on XBL. To have fun.

But calling each other "fags" in voice chat does?

-- Alex

 

[squid5580]

Why must we go to this extreme so you can put "I am gay" in your profile and I can put "I am a proud anti-gay NAMBLA Satanist" in mine. If you are grown up enough to make that decision shouldn't you also be mature enough to understand how having that in your profile might offend someone else.

With that statement, you are assuming that a gay person stating their sexuality is naturally offensive. It is not fair to compare "I am gay" to "I am anti-gay", as one is linked closely with hate. A better comparison would be "I am gay" with "I am straight". Do you think "I am straight" would be found offensive? Probably very few people, if any, would object to that. Doesn't that reveal a lot about our society still, and especially about people on Xbox Live? The fact that people still look down so much upon gays?

Does it? And gays are the only ones looked down on. Religions are never frowned upon. I am sure you invite every Mormon and Jehovah's Witness into your home and allow them to have thier little speech. Your homosexual lifestyle offends thier religious lifestyle. Is your sexual orientation more important than thier religious beliefs?

 

[YuheJi]

Say I am a christian. I was raised in a god fearing home. I believe homosexuality is a sin. Therefore it is a part of who I am. Just as much as being gay is to you (just follow along here I am not a christian and I am not saying you are gay). So why is it that you get to express who you are without consequence but I am not? Opening up the door can let alot of demons out. I could easily put proud member of the KKK since 1999. You say it is ok to express who you are so can I. The only real difference here is my views and actions offend you. And the absolute bottom line is these statements do nothing for our purpose on XBL. To have fun.

But the point is, someone stating that they are homosexual is not akin to someone stating they are sexist, racist, or homophobic. When someone says "I am anti-gay", it means that person hates gays. It means that's hating is a big part of his or her beliefs. Same thing when someone says "I am a member of the KKK". It means that person hates non-whites. If someone were to say "I am gay", it doesn't mean he or she hates Christians. It is far from the same thing. A someone being offended by another person saying "I am gay" could be compared to a foreigner, who was taught from birth that Americans were bad, and being offended when someone says "I am a proud American".

It's about the intentions of expressing "a part of who I am". If I stated I was sexist, racist, homophobic, whatever, I would be stating that I would actively go after and try to hurt people of a different race, sex, or sexual orientation. If I stated I were gay, it doesn't mean that I have some extra agenda to make fun of, troll, or grief, other people because of what they are.

 

[squid5580]

And the absolute bottom line is these statements do nothing for our purpose on XBL. To have fun.

But calling each other "fags" in voice chat does?

-- Alex

You only have to hear it once per person. Twice if you are slow on the mute button.

 

[Alex_P]

You only have to hear it once per person. Twice if you are slow on the mute button.

Nobody's forcing you to keep going back to profiles you might find objectionable, either.

-- Alex

 

[squid5580]

Say I am a christian. I was raised in a god fearing home. I believe homosexuality is a sin. Therefore it is a part of who I am. Just as much as being gay is to you (just follow along here I am not a christian and I am not saying you are gay). So why is it that you get to express who you are without consequence but I am not? Opening up the door can let alot of demons out. I could easily put proud member of the KKK since 1999. You say it is ok to express who you are so can I. The only real difference here is my views and actions offend you. And the absolute bottom line is these statements do nothing for our purpose on XBL. To have fun.

But the point is, someone stating that they are homosexual is not akin to someone stating they are sexist, racist, or homophobic. When someone says "I am anti-gay", it means that person hates gays. It means that's hating is a big part of his or her beliefs. Same thing when someone says "I am a member of the KKK". It means that person hates non-whites. If someone were to say "I am gay", it doesn't mean he or she hates Christians. It is far from the same thing. A someone being offended by another person saying "I am gay" could be compared to a foreigner, who was taught from birth that Americans were bad, and being offended when someone says "I am a proud American".

It's about the intentions of expressing "a part of who I am". If I stated I was sexist, racist, homophobic, whatever, I would be stating that I would actively go after and try to hurt people of a different race, sex, or sexual orientation. If I stated I were gay, it doesn't mean that I have some extra agenda to make fun of, troll, or grief, other people because of what they are.

Being anti-gay doesn't always mean they hate them. It means they disagree with thier lifestyle. It is simple really. Either everyone gets to express who they are no matter how offensive another might find it in thier profiles. Or no one gets to. Which one do you think is more appropriate for XBL? A community designed for gaming, not political agendas.

 

[squid5580]

You only have to hear it once per person. Twice if you are slow on the mute button.

Nobody's forcing you to keep going back to profiles you might find objectionable, either.

-- Alex

If it is such a big deal to you to have it in there why isn't it for another who sees it?

 

[YuheJi]

Being anti-gay doesn't always mean they hate them. It means they disagree with thier lifestyle. It is simple really. Either everyone gets to express who they are no matter how offensive another might find it in thier profiles. Or no one gets to. Which one do you think is more appropriate for XBL? A community designed for gaming, not political agendas.

But the thing is, being gay isn't a political agenda. Your argument is based off the idea that claiming to be gay is as repulsive as it is to claim to dislike or disagree with people of a specific gender, race, or sexual orientation. The point I'm trying to make is that being gay should not be considered any more offensive than being from, say, California. But people still do find it offensive, and that is something that should not be accepted. I've seen a lot of people that have expressed their religion in their profile. That is better than expressing oneself as a homophobe, because it is still open to a variety of interpretations. Not all gays live a certain lifestyle. They are people that all live differently, whether that be promiscuously or conservatively. Similarly, not all Christians see eye to eye on multiple issues. But when someone feels the need to say "I am anti-gay", it means that person considers that issue so repulsive, that he or she wants to make the fact that they don't like gays the thing that everyone sees.

 

[Alex_P]

If it is such a big deal to you to have it in there why isn't it for another who sees it?

Slinging around racial slurs and homophobic insults isn't a big deal for the people doing it, either. It's practically second nature.

Again, how come you think the best approach is to moderate and regulate the fuck out of tiny little blurbs about yourself but to put dealing with actual targeted harassment entirely on the users themselves? How is this at all a consistent position?

-- Alex

 

[evan573]

yay for me because i dont have to worry about all this diversity and special rights because where i live we all pretty much get along.

 

[bug_chaser]

i'm not hateful nor bigoted. and i agree, you guys deserve the same rights as everyone else, but it gets taken too far with the gay pride parades and stores. there is a difference of wanting equal rights and wanting everyone to cater to your sexuality.

and for the record, stop stealing our stuff...i want the rainbow, the superman logo and key west back dangit!!

Another example-I believe gays should be treated exactly the same as everyone else, and you assume that a) I am gay and b) I want special rights for gays. The best part is you still maintain that nobody really cares about sexual orientation anymore, despite the fact that you hear "fag" as the standard insult all over ol games.

As for the parades, an argument can certainly be made that they are not the most effective form of advocacy. What cannot be argued is whether or not more advocacy is necessary. Gays may have "their own" bookstores and they may have stolen Key West from you but they still cannot marry.

alright, good point. i agree, gays should be allowed to get married, but if the pastor/priest believes that it is a sin (i'm not religious btw so this is just blahblahblah) they should not be forced to marry a gay couple if they do not feel it is right.

Couldn't agree more. In fact, I'd kinda like to see the religious concept of marriage untwined from the legal one. People of faith shouldn't have to change their views for the legal system, and the views of people of faith shouldn't affect the law.

 

[cobra_ky]

Oh and please explain to me the difference between the lesbian situation and this one

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.126375?page=1

other than the obvious. A rule was broken (and we don't even know what he did) yet the responses are completely different because he has a mental disability and is not about sexual orientation. Exactly what I have been saying all along.

well, we don't know what he did, so i can't really comment on the appropriateness of sony's response.

the one clear difference, however, is that this guy is suing for damages, instead of trying to open a dialogue about why the policy should be changed.

Couldn't agree more. In fact, I'd kinda like to see the religious concept of marriage untwined from the legal one. People of faith shouldn't have to change their views for the legal system, and the views of people of faith shouldn't affect the law.

exactly. i don't see why the U.S. government can't just take the word "marriage" out of the law and replace it with "civil union". then everyone would be equal in the eyes of the law, but people could still define marriage however they wanted.

 

[squid5580]

If it is such a big deal to you to have it in there why isn't it for another who sees it?

Slinging around racial slurs and homophobic insults isn't a big deal for the people doing it, either. It's practically second nature.

Again, how come you think the best approach is to moderate and regulate the fuck out of tiny little blurbs about yourself but to put dealing with actual targeted harassment entirely on the users themselves? How is this at all a consistent position?

-- Alex

Don't harass, abuse, or spam other players.

Don't scream, yell, threaten, or stalk other players.

Don't distribute, post, publish, upload, disseminate or discuss defamatory, infringing, obscene, sexual or unlawful materials like child pornography or illegal drugs, including images, audio, video, or text.

Don't post links to websites that violate the Code of Conduct.

Don't give out information that personally identifies you (such as your real name, address, phone number, credit card number, etc.) while you're playing. This includes voice chat and the names you create for your gamertag or mottos. This information could be used by other players for illegal or harmful purposes. Also, don't give out the personal information of other players.

Don't create a gamertag or motto that other users may be offended by, this includes comments that look, sound like, stand for, hint at, abbreviate, or insinuate any of the following: profane words/phrases, topics or content of a sexual nature, hate speech (including but not limited to racial, ethnic, or religious slurs), illegal drugs/controlled substances, or illegal activities.

Don't create a gamertag or motto that references controversial religious topics, notorious people, organizations, or sensitive current or historical events that may also be considered inappropriate.

WHAT TO DO:

Take a break or mute a player who makes you angry. If you act out it could be considered harassment.

Send negative feedback or file complaints on problem players. Select them from the player list and choose the Feedback or File a Complaint option.

If you find players you enjoy gaming with, put them on your preferred gamers list.

If you encounter an obnoxious player, you can mute them. Some games even allow the host to boot them from the session.

If you're a parent, you can use Family Settings to turn off your kids' ability to use the Voice Communicator and their ability to make online purchases. You can use Family Settings on Xbox 360 & Windows Vista to control who your child can play with and how much interaction they can have with the community.

Now you tell me what is so wrong with that? Other than the fact they don't cater to your specific group. And they expect you to be mature about any situation you may or may not encounter. The whole well other people have (insert violation here) in thiers is a non issue. Report them and move on.

Source:http://www.xbox.com/zh-SG/live/legal/codeofconduct.htm

 

[Alex_P]

Now you tell me what is so wrong with that?

Notice how that code doesn't actually say "religion, sex, and all other sensitive issues" -- it specifically says, like a pretty standard code of conduct, that hate speech, profanity, sexually explicit stuff, and illegal stuff are banned.

Based on that code, you can, in fact, state your religious affiliation on your profile, and you should be able to state your sexual orientation, too -- just noting your sexual orientation isn't much more "sexual" than stating your gender is.

...

But this is all a side-track from the real point, anyway. The panel's not just about policy -- it's about a community problem. Policy may be a way to address that problem but it's not the only one. And, regardless of whether current policy is fair or not, the community problem exists.

-- Alex

 

[squid5580]

Now you tell me what is so wrong with that?

Notice how that code doesn't actually say "religion, sex, and all other sensitive issues" -- it specifically says, like a pretty standard code of conduct, that hate speech, profanity, sexually explicit stuff, and illegal stuff are banned.

Based on that code, you can, in fact, state your religious affiliation on your profile, and you should be able to state your sexual orientation, too -- just noting your sexual orientation isn't much more "sexual" than stating your gender is.

...

But this is all a side-track from the real point, anyway. The panel's not just about policy -- it's about a community problem. Policy may be a way to address that problem but it's not the only one. And, regardless of whether current policy is fair or not, the community problem exists.

-- Alex

So claiming your sexuality isn't content of a sexual nature? And the code clearly states how to deal with the community problem. The only difference between this one and the one you suggest is MS is giving the user the power to decide what they find offensive. How dare they treat us like intelligent mature adults. How dare they not swing the banhammer when one offends another. Why homophobic racists don't deserve XBL privileges. Why stop there? Lets ban them from life as well. Then where does it end? Every group no matter how right or wrong they feel they are is going to have an opposite group that feels just as passionate and believes they are just as much in the right. No one is saying you have to like it but you can't sit there and say my feelings are more important than yours no matter how you slice it. Your rights are no more important than anyone elses. And someone using the word fag is not an infringement on any of your rights. Especially when they give you the tools so you don't have to listen which is alot more than you are given anywhere else.

 

[Foolishman1776]

You make no sense...seriously. Did you ever consider the fact that some people go to the same sex for reasons that we can't control? You are the kind of people that make the internet a place of ignorance. Some people are homosexual because of past experiences, or they find a certain attraction in the same sex. You can't make someone like having sex with a women, it just doesn't work that way. And seriously, using ice cream as a comparison? How does that work?

Actually, I had considered that, and dismissed it. You may not be able to control the base reactions you have, but as I stated, you are not a mindless slave to whatever urge you have, or you'd be lighting people like me on fire every chance you got. As for my analogy of ice cream, I think it's a pretty direct comparison, a person may be predisposed towards a certain flavor, but they can enjoy others, just like say, sex. As I stated, you may not find yourself attracted to the opposite gender, but you are not physically incapable of having sex with them, so until homosexuals grow a third and fourth sex organ, it remains a choice. If you consider this an ignorant view, I'm sorry. It is in fact, a view that I've put a lot of thought in to. Beyond this, let me be clear, I don't have a problem with homosexual behavior, who you do what with is your business, YOUR business. That you feel the need to "embrace who you are" and "come out of the closet" suggests to me only that you're seeking to validate your choices, as if you yourself aren't completely sure of them. If being homosexual is no big deal, then it's no big deal, but you can't walk around acting in an outrageous manner and not expect someone to react negatively.

No one is saying you have to like it but you can't sit there and say my feelings are more important than yours no matter how you slice it. Your rights are no more important than anyone elses. And someone using the word fag is not an infringement on any of your rights. Especially when they give you the tools so you don't have to listen which is alot more than you are given anywhere else.

Also, this.

 

[cobra_ky]

So claiming your sexuality isn't content of a sexual nature?

of course it isn't. claiming "i love my partner" isn't any more sexual than saying "i love my wife".

And the code clearly states how to deal with the community problem. The only difference between this one and the one you suggest is MS is giving the user the power to decide what they find offensive. How dare they treat us like intelligent mature adults. How dare they not swing the banhammer when one offends another. Why homophobic racists don't deserve XBL privileges.

and yet, you have no problem with microsoft swinging the banhammer at a lesbian because her existence offended somebody?

you keep dodging the question: if users can moderate voice chat themselves, why can't they do the same for profiles?