EA Hosting Panel on Homophobia in Gaming

[cobra_ky]

Actually, I had considered that, and dismissed it. You may not be able to control the base reactions you have, but as I stated, you are not a mindless slave to whatever urge you have, or you'd be lighting people like me on fire every chance you got. As for my analogy of ice cream, I think it's a pretty direct comparison, a person may be predisposed towards a certain flavor, but they can enjoy others, just like say, sex. As I stated, you may not find yourself attracted to the opposite gender, but you are not physically incapable of having sex with them, so until homosexuals grow a third and fourth sex organ, it remains a choice.

homosexuals can't choose to enjoy straight sex anymore than you or i could choose to enjoy gay sex. buteven if it was a choice, what makes homosexuality any worse a choice than heterosexuality?

That you feel the need to "embrace who you are" and "come out of the closet" suggests to me only that you're seeking to validate your choices, as if you yourself aren't completely sure of them. If being homosexual is no big deal, then it's no big deal, but you can't walk around acting in an outrageous manner and not expect someone to react negatively.

what it should suggest to you is that there is overwhelming social pressure on gays to "stay in the closet" and NOT "embrace who they are". i'm not sure what you consider "acting in an outrageous manner", but i hope it doesn't include being honest about oneself.

 

[squid5580]

Actually, I had considered that, and dismissed it. You may not be able to control the base reactions you have, but as I stated, you are not a mindless slave to whatever urge you have, or you'd be lighting people like me on fire every chance you got. As for my analogy of ice cream, I think it's a pretty direct comparison, a person may be predisposed towards a certain flavor, but they can enjoy others, just like say, sex. As I stated, you may not find yourself attracted to the opposite gender, but you are not physically incapable of having sex with them, so until homosexuals grow a third and fourth sex organ, it remains a choice.

homosexuals can't choose to enjoy straight sex anymore than you or i could choose to enjoy gay sex. buteven if it was a choice, what makes homosexuality any worse a choice than heterosexuality?

That you feel the need to "embrace who you are" and "come out of the closet" suggests to me only that you're seeking to validate your choices, as if you yourself aren't completely sure of them. If being homosexual is no big deal, then it's no big deal, but you can't walk around acting in an outrageous manner and not expect someone to react negatively.

what it should suggest to you is that there is overwhelming social pressure on gays to "stay in the closet" and NOT "embrace who they are". i'm not sure what you consider "acting in an outrageous manner", but i hope it doesn't include being honest about oneself.

Big difference between I am a lesbian and I love my partner.

And if you had read it there is no discrimination between MS's CoC and the gay community. Unless religion and everything else isn't discriminated against in the same way in the CoC. The community may have reported it more. That is not MS's fault. And since Idon't put in detail about every personal aspect of my life in my profile does that mean I am not being honest with myself?

There seems to be alot of confusion here about one very important aspect. MS is not I repeat NOT your government. They are a business designed to make money. If they feel that putting your sexual orientation, religion, political viewpoint or anything else in your profile is a threat to said money they are allowed to make a rule about it. If said rule is then broken they reserve the right to refuse service. If you don't like said rule(s) that is your right. No one is forcing you to buy it.

The contract you agreed to when you clicked I Agree meant exactly that. There is no I agree to everything but this part option. You don't no matter who you are get to pick and choose. And that is the bottom line.

 

[cobra_ky]

Big difference between I am a lesbian and I love my partner.

not really. both are a statement of homosexuality. "i love my partner" also implies you're in a committed relationship, but neither comment is overtly sexual.

And if you had read it there is no discrimination between MS's CoC and the gay community. Unless religion and everything else isn't discriminated against in the same way in the CoC. The community may have reported it more. That is not MS's fault. And since Idon't put in detail about every personal aspect of my life in my profile does that mean I am not being honest with myself?

there's no discrimination in the CoC as written, no. but there IS discrimination in the way its enforced. it's similar to how there's no law discriminating against black drivers, yet they are more likely to get stopped by the police.

all i said was that being honest about yourself is not "acting in an outrageous manner". you're inferring things that aren't there.

There seems to be alot of confusion here about one very important aspect. MS is not I repeat NOT your government. They are a business designed to make money. If they feel that putting your sexual orientation, religion, political viewpoint or anything else in your profile is a threat to said money they are allowed to make a rule about it. If said rule is then broken they reserve the right to refuse service. If you don't like said rule(s) that is your right. No one is forcing you to buy it.

The contract you agreed to when you clicked I Agree meant exactly that. There is no I agree to everything but this part option. You don't no matter who you are get to pick and choose. And that is the bottom line.

this is all true. the argument i am trying to make, however, is that this policy is COSTING microsoft money. GLBT players are quitting because they don't feel safe on XBL, far more than would quit if microsoft would just let people use the word "gay" in their profile or moderate voice chat effectively..

 

[leviathanmisha]

You make no sense...seriously. Did you ever consider the fact that some people go to the same sex for reasons that we can't control? You are the kind of people that make the internet a place of ignorance. Some people are homosexual because of past experiences, or they find a certain attraction in the same sex. You can't make someone like having sex with a women, it just doesn't work that way. And seriously, using ice cream as a comparison? How does that work?

Actually, I had considered that, and dismissed it. You may not be able to control the base reactions you have, but as I stated, you are not a mindless slave to whatever urge you have, or you'd be lighting people like me on fire every chance you got. As for my analogy of ice cream, I think it's a pretty direct comparison, a person may be predisposed towards a certain flavor, but they can enjoy others, just like say, sex. As I stated, you may not find yourself attracted to the opposite gender, but you are not physically incapable of having sex with them, so until homosexuals grow a third and fourth sex organ, it remains a choice. If you consider this an ignorant view, I'm sorry. It is in fact, a view that I've put a lot of thought in to. Beyond this, let me be clear, I don't have a problem with homosexual behavior, who you do what with is your business, YOUR business. That you feel the need to "embrace who you are" and "come out of the closet" suggests to me only that you're seeking to validate your choices, as if you yourself aren't completely sure of them. If being homosexual is no big deal, then it's no big deal, but you can't walk around acting in an outrageous manner and not expect someone to react negatively.

No one is saying you have to like it but you can't sit there and say my feelings are more important than yours no matter how you slice it. Your rights are no more important than anyone elses. And someone using the word fag is not an infringement on any of your rights. Especially when they give you the tools so you don't have to listen which is alot more than you are given anywhere else.

Also, this.

Also, the more you whine about it, the less anyone gives a damn, do yourself a favor and shut-up.

 

[squid5580]

Big difference between I am a lesbian and I love my partner.

not really. both are a statement of homosexuality. "i love my partner" also implies you're in a committed relationship, but neither comment is overtly sexual.

And if you had read it there is no discrimination between MS's CoC and the gay community. Unless religion and everything else isn't discriminated against in the same way in the CoC. The community may have reported it more. That is not MS's fault. And since Idon't put in detail about every personal aspect of my life in my profile does that mean I am not being honest with myself?

there's no discrimination in the CoC as written, no. but there IS discrimination in the way its enforced. it's similar to how there's no law discriminating against black drivers, yet they are more likely to get stopped by the police.

all i said was that being honest about yourself is not "acting in an outrageous manner". you're inferring things that aren't there.

There seems to be alot of confusion here about one very important aspect. MS is not I repeat NOT your government. They are a business designed to make money. If they feel that putting your sexual orientation, religion, political viewpoint or anything else in your profile is a threat to said money they are allowed to make a rule about it. If said rule is then broken they reserve the right to refuse service. If you don't like said rule(s) that is your right. No one is forcing you to buy it.

The contract you agreed to when you clicked I Agree meant exactly that. There is no I agree to everything but this part option. You don't no matter who you are get to pick and choose. And that is the bottom line.

this is all true. the argument i am trying to make, however, is that this policy is COSTING microsoft money. GLBT players are quitting because they don't feel safe on XBL, far more than would quit if microsoft would just let people use the word "gay" in their profile or moderate voice chat effectively..

And the arguement I am trying to make is this. If people are allowed to announce thier sexual orientation that is the beginning. Then people are allowed to announce thier religious beliefs and political viewpoints. Since the same arguement can be used for both cases. This divides the community. Which would lead to the eventual destruction of XBL since no one is going to let the other side game in peace. Instead of having a place to play games there would be alot of arguing within the games itself that the people who are there not to argue but to play are either going to play offline games and forgo the 60 dollar gold membership or go with a console that they can play online that is more regulated.

Personally I could care less what you put in your profile. I just understand why MS would have such a policy in place. And if a person feels they can't enjoy using the service without using the words gay, homosexual or lesbian as well as the words Democrat, Republican, pro life, Christian, Jewish, Catholic and pro choice (and alot more) then that is really a shame. MS can't please everyone though. And if XBL is as bad as everyone says it is (frankly I have been using it for close to 2 years and I have had alot different experiences than most. Or I am just more forgiving since I have met alot more friendly nice people who I get along with swimmingly vs the jerks that are always reffered to. Then again I don't judge an entire community based on a few of thier bad apples and try to give everyone I talk to the same amount of respect until they prove to me they don't deserve it) then all this would be doing is throwing gas on a forest fire.

As for the real heart of the matter. How do you know that she was the only person ever banned from XBL for what they had in thier profile? I don't understand the whole arguement. it sounds to me like what you guys and gals are saying is what she did was ok. And in a sense it is. The problem as I see it isn't the fact that she is a lesbian. What she did is violated the rules no matter how wrong or stupid or sexist you may think they are. When you or I click the I agree button when registering for anything online it means just that. I agree to adhere to these guidelines. I agree that if I don't I will face the banhammer. I can't click I agree (which is like signing a contract) and then decide I don't agree so I will just do whatever the hell I want. If you don't agree then fine take the proper steps to voice it. But asking for special rights or priviliges because of whatever group you belong to after you violate a rule that you don't agree with after you say you do agree with it is setting your own cause back instead of pushing it forward.

 

[cobra_ky]

And the arguement I am trying to make is this. If people are allowed to announce thier sexual orientation that is the beginning. Then people are allowed to announce thier religious beliefs and political viewpoints. Since the same arguement can be used for both cases. This divides the community. Which would lead to the eventual destruction of XBL since no one is going to let the other side game in peace. Instead of having a place to play games there would be alot of arguing within the games itself that the people who are there not to argue but to play are either going to play offline games and forgo the 60 dollar gold membership or go with a console that they can play online that is more regulated.

you're talking about voice chat, which is completely unregulated aside from the mute, complaint, and feedback functions. if this was going to happen it would have already, and if anything, GLAAD's proposals would combat this by improving the complaint process.

however, you seem to think that voice chat, where the vast majority of communication (and therefore harassment) takes place, is fine as it is. yet, you're in favor of the additional censorship microsoft imposes on user profiles. if voice chat (again, the primary form of communication) is perfectly fine without censorship, why do user profiles need it?

As for the real heart of the matter. How do you know that she was the only person ever banned from XBL for what they had in thier profile? I don't understand the whole arguement. it sounds to me like what you guys and gals are saying is what she did was ok. And in a sense it is. The problem as I see it isn't the fact that she is a lesbian. What she did is violated the rules no matter how wrong or stupid or sexist you may think they are. When you or I click the I agree button when registering for anything online it means just that. I agree to adhere to these guidelines. I agree that if I don't I will face the banhammer. I can't click I agree (which is like signing a contract) and then decide I don't agree so I will just do whatever the hell I want. If you don't agree then fine take the proper steps to voice it.

i'm sure plenty of people have been banned from Xbox Live because of their profiles, and some with good reason.

in the code of conduct, there's nothing explicitly stated regarding sexual orientation. quite frankly, there was no way to know sexual orientation was bannable until someone got banned for it.

furthermore, she agreed that microsoft could take action against her account. she never agreed to give up her right to complain about it. even then, this issue is far larger than just one lesbian. it seems like you think the right thing to do would be for gays to boycott XBL if they don't like the policy. i assure you many are, and that is costing microsoft money.

and finally, since i myself never agreed to microsoft's code of conduct, i reserve the right to complain about it all i want. i think it's a stupid policy whether anyone got banned over it or not.

 

[squid5580]

And the arguement I am trying to make is this. If people are allowed to announce thier sexual orientation that is the beginning. Then people are allowed to announce thier religious beliefs and political viewpoints. Since the same arguement can be used for both cases. This divides the community. Which would lead to the eventual destruction of XBL since no one is going to let the other side game in peace. Instead of having a place to play games there would be alot of arguing within the games itself that the people who are there not to argue but to play are either going to play offline games and forgo the 60 dollar gold membership or go with a console that they can play online that is more regulated.

you're talking about voice chat, which is completely unregulated aside from the mute, complaint, and feedback functions. if this was going to happen it would have already, and if anything, GLAAD's proposals would combat this by improving the complaint process.

however, you seem to think that voice chat, where the vast majority of communication (and therefore harassment) takes place, is fine as it is. yet, you're in favor of the additional censorship microsoft imposes on user profiles. if voice chat (again, the primary form of communication) is perfectly fine without censorship, why do user profiles need it?

As for the real heart of the matter. How do you know that she was the only person ever banned from XBL for what they had in thier profile? I don't understand the whole arguement. it sounds to me like what you guys and gals are saying is what she did was ok. And in a sense it is. The problem as I see it isn't the fact that she is a lesbian. What she did is violated the rules no matter how wrong or stupid or sexist you may think they are. When you or I click the I agree button when registering for anything online it means just that. I agree to adhere to these guidelines. I agree that if I don't I will face the banhammer. I can't click I agree (which is like signing a contract) and then decide I don't agree so I will just do whatever the hell I want. If you don't agree then fine take the proper steps to voice it.

i'm sure plenty of people have been banned from Xbox Live because of their profiles, and some with good reason.

in the code of conduct, there's nothing explicitly stated regarding sexual orientation. quite frankly, there was no way to know sexual orientation was bannable until someone got banned for it.

furthermore, she agreed that microsoft could take action against her account. she never agreed to give up her right to complain about it. even then, this issue is far larger than just one lesbian. it seems like you think the right thing to do would be for gays to boycott XBL if they don't like the policy. i assure you many are, and that is costing microsoft money.

and finally, since i myself never agreed to microsoft's code of conduct, i reserve the right to complain about it all i want. i think it's a stupid policy whether anyone got banned over it or not.

Wow just wow. What part of if you agree to a policy then violate it turns it into complaining about it? And sexual orientation is sexual content. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

And no it isn't about voice chat or profile. I have come to realize when a counter arguement shoots down why you can't put in your profile it becomes about voice chat. When a counter arguement about the chat is provided it becomes about the profile. Good job


Squid Out!!

*EDIT* hey wait a second? Are you telling me that you don't play on XBL? That you are making your judgements based on a few random posters online and this? And then are accusing all of us of being homophobic racists? Judging us without even giving us a chance based on what you have heard through the grapevine? Or because that is the cool thing for your group to do? Mmmmm tastes like hypocrosy.

 

[Alex_P]

If people are allowed to announce thier sexual orientation that is the beginning. Then people are allowed to announce thier religious beliefs and political viewpoints.

I don't see anything in the code of conduct you posted saying that you can't place political or religious messages in your XBL profile. The code lists hate speech (standard for most Internet services), illegal activities (standard CYA thing for anything hosted by a company), and sex stuff (standard CYA thing for any website that whose audience includes kids or teens); most forms of religious and political expression fall outside of those banned categories.

-- Alex

 

[squid5580]

If people are allowed to announce thier sexual orientation that is the beginning. Then people are allowed to announce thier religious beliefs and political viewpoints.

I don't see anything in the code of conduct you posted saying that you can't place political or religious messages in your XBL profile. The code lists hate speech (standard for most Internet services), illegal activities (standard CYA thing for anything hosted by a company), and sex stuff (standard CYA thing for any website that whose audience includes kids or teens); most forms of religious and political expression fall outside of those banned categories.

-- Alex

Don't create a gamertag or motto that references controversial religious topics, notorious people, organizations, or sensitive current or historical events that may also be considered inappropriate.

Your religion or political organization may not be controversial to you. Doesn't mean that if I am in the opposite camp your views aren't controversial to me. Or vice versa.

Funny thing is I could sum up the Code of Conduct in a single sentence "respect the community and all in it by considering the greater good of the community before your self"

 

[cobra_ky]

Wow just wow. What part of if you agree to a policy then violate it turns it into complaining about it? And sexual orientation is sexual content. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

if sexual orientation is sexual content, then the prince kissing snow white is sexual content. a man kissing a woman is an overtly heterosexual act.

And no it isn't about voice chat or profile.

this is about homophobia in gaming, and on xbox live in particular. microsoft bans homosexuals for mentioning sexual orientation in their profiles, while others are free to spout homophobic slurs and harass gay users over voice chat with impunity.

you defended microsoft's actions but refuse to explain why different forms of communication merit different standards of enforcement. unfortunately at this point, the only possible justification i see for this is that these standards happen to support anti-homosexual views.

I have come to realize when a counter arguement shoots down why you can't put in your profile it becomes about voice chat. When a counter arguement about the chat is provided it becomes about the profile. Good job

when i argue against the profile ban you say it's for the good of the community. when i argue for better moderation tools for voice chat you claim it's censorship. if i haven't adequately addressed your counterarguments, it's because you never expressed a consistent position.

Squid Out!!

it's been real.

for the sake of clarity i'll summarize the changes i want to see made in Xbox Live, one last time:

1. Better reporting tools for voice chat.

2. Eased restrictions on profile content.

note that i'm arguing for less censorship, not more. i don't expect you to agree, but i hope you can at least see where i'm coming from.

 

[squid5580]

Wow just wow. What part of if you agree to a policy then violate it turns it into complaining about it? And sexual orientation is sexual content. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

if sexual orientation is sexual content, then the prince kissing snow white is sexual content. a man kissing a woman is an overtly heterosexual act.

And no it isn't about voice chat or profile.

this is about homophobia in gaming, and on xbox live in particular. microsoft bans homosexuals for mentioning sexual orientation in their profiles, while others are free to spout homophobic slurs and harass gay users over voice chat with impunity.

you defended microsoft's actions but refuse to explain why different forms of communication merit different standards of enforcement. unfortunately at this point, the only possible justification i see for this is that these standards happen to support anti-homosexual views.

I have come to realize when a counter arguement shoots down why you can't put in your profile it becomes about voice chat. When a counter arguement about the chat is provided it becomes about the profile. Good job

when i argue against the profile ban you say it's for the good of the community. when i argue for better moderation tools for voice chat you claim it's censorship. if i haven't adequately addressed your counterarguments, it's because you never expressed a consistent position.

Squid Out!!

it's been real.

for the sake of clarity i'll summarize the changes i want to see made in Xbox Live, one last time:

1. Better reporting tools for voice chat.

2. Eased restrictions on profile content.

note that i'm arguing for less censorship, not more. i don't expect you to agree, but i hope you can at least see where i'm coming from.

I am trying but you are making it really difficult. How is forcing the community to worry about what they say in a room less censorship when they have already provided the least amount of censorship they can without complete and utter freedom? By saying well we need better reporting tools for what? If I send you a hate message it doesn't magically disappear voice or text. You have a record of it for 30 days and the tools to report it already in place. If I call a friend a douchebag in the middle of a deathmatch and you are there to hear it and report me. I get banned. Well isn't that more censorship than I call my friend a douchebag and you take offense and you mute me? If there wasn't a system in place to protect everyone already I would be in 100% agreement with you. I just fail to see how the muting system if used properly by you (and this means the player is muted until you decide to unmute them which is how it works) is a failure. The only time it ever fails is if you don't use it. The difference between the 2 systems really boils down to you don't get the satisfaction of revenge. They get to keep playing thier games and you get to keep playing yours. And MS keeps raking in the money and keeps putting new games for the console and everyone is happy.

No one yet has given me a valid unselfish reason as to why they think it matters what your sexual orientation is when gaming and why it should be in your profile. Note the word unselfish. None of this it is who I am because that is a selfish reason. One good reason to have it that would actually benefit the community as a whole. Not the homosexual community but the XBL community. We always assume that everyone is straight is one response I heard. Yet no one ever thought for a second when you are in a group of 16 people (or more) that thier sexual orientation is the furthest thing from anyone's minds. It is a non issue until "we're here we're queer get used to it" starts being chanted. I don't feel the need to express my sexual orientation to everyone I see. I am secure enough with it that I don't need to. Even though there are some in the world who don't agree with it. Only to certain people whose pants I am trying to get into do I intentionally make it known. And when we are talking about an online gaming system this is again a non issue. If XBL was a bar then it would be a different story.

Every time I try to get out they pull me back in.

 

[Chewster]

So, I've been following this thread for the better part of the week now and it has been interesting. I don't really have too much to add at this point and agree with those who think that XBL ought to be moderated differently. However...

And then are accusing all of us of being homophobic racists?

I'm pretty sure it was never said by anyone here that everyone on XBL is a homophobic racist. That would be silly.

Mmmmm tastes like hypocrosy.

Well then I think you ought to get your taste buds checked since it is not hypocrisy. And if it is (just to play Devil's Advocate for a second here), then you're a hypocrite too since you're talking about gay discrimination and you've never been gay and discriminated against for being gay.

That is what you're saying, right? He is not allowed to comment on something because he has not experienced it first hand?

No no, hypocrisy would be closer to advocating censorship for one mode of XBL communication and complete and unequivocal freedom for another.

Now, where have I seen that?

In any case, sorry for jumping in late. There were others before me that seemed to be handling things well, so I held out as long as I could. In any case, keep the debate alive people! This is interesting stuff.

 

[squid5580]

So, I've been following this thread for the better part of the week now and it has been interesting. I don't really have too much to add at this point and agree with those who think that XBL ought to be moderated differently. However...

And then are accusing all of us of being homophobic racists?

I'm pretty sure it was never said by anyone here that everyone on XBL is a homophobic racist. That would be silly.

Mmmmm tastes like hypocrosy.

Well then I think you ought to get your taste buds checked since it is not hypocrisy. And if it is (just to play Devil's Advocate for a second here), then you're a hypocrite too since you're talking about gay discrimination and you've never been gay and discriminated against for being gay. Funny how that doesn't make me feel any better. Or any more equal.

That is what you're saying, right? He is not allowed to comment on something because he has not experienced it first hand?

No no, hypocrisy would be closer to advocating censorship for one mode of XBL communication and complete and unequivocal freedom for another.

Now, where have I seen that?

In any case, sorry for jumping in late. There were others before me that seemed to be handling things well, so I held out as long as I could. In any case, keep the debate alive people! This is interesting stuff.

1. I am a human and therefore have been discriminated against. May not have been for being gay but does that matter? Even here on the Escapist I have been discriminated against for being an "Xbot". Sad that a person can put you down because of the console you own but it is ok because they aren't doing it because of your sexual orientation.

2. Reread through the thread and you will find (unless it has been edited by the mods) that it has been implied by more than one person. And this isn't the only thread where such a statement has been made.

3. Unequivocal freedom would mean the absent of specific functions designed to protect you. The difference being that one you can control and the other MS has laid out a set of rules since you can't erase another person's profile.

And I knew there was this floating around page 7 or 8 (be sure to click)

This attitude is why I avoid XBL, actually:

Spoiler

 

[Alex_P]

1. I am a human and therefore have been discriminated against. May not have been for being gay but does that matter? Even here on the Escapist I have been discriminated against for being an "Xbot". Sad that a person can put you down because of the console you own but it is ok because they aren't doing it because of your sexual orientation.

Okay, see, this is exactly where the "cisgendered heterosexual white males don't understand discrimination" thing comes from.

-- Alex

 

[cobra_ky]

I am trying but you are making it really difficult. How is forcing the community to worry about what they say in a room less censorship when they have already provided the least amount of censorship they can without complete and utter freedom? By saying well we need better reporting tools for what? If I send you a hate message it doesn't magically disappear voice or text. You have a record of it for 30 days and the tools to report it already in place. If I call a friend a douchebag in the middle of a deathmatch and you are there to hear it and report me. I get banned. Well isn't that more censorship than I call my friend a douchebag and you take offense and you mute me?

no, because calling people douchebags is already against the code of conduct. the fact that enforcement is poor isn't license to break the rules. besides, there's no guarantee microsoft would ban you anyway. one of the benefits of a recording system is that the violation would be in some sort of context. the penalty for getting excited and calling your friend a douche is going to be much lighter than, say, stalking someone across several rounds just so you can constantly call them a ******.

If there wasn't a system in place to protect everyone already I would be in 100% agreement with you. I just fail to see how the muting system if used properly by you (and this means the player is muted until you decide to unmute them which is how it works) is a failure. The only time it ever fails is if you don't use it. The difference between the 2 systems really boils down to you don't get the satisfaction of revenge. They get to keep playing thier games and you get to keep playing yours. And MS keeps raking in the money and keeps putting new games for the console and everyone is happy.

the biggest problem is for every asshole you mute there are dozens more still out there. there's no actual deterrent against harrassing people over voice chat. even if you only hear eash asshole once, you're still going to be exposed to a lot of hate over time. that's why i wouldn't allow a young child on voice chat, ever.

No one yet has given me a valid unselfish reason as to why they think it matters what your sexual orientation is when gaming and why it should be in your profile. Note the word unselfish. None of this it is who I am because that is a selfish reason. One good reason to have it that would actually benefit the community as a whole. Not the homosexual community but the XBL community. We always assume that everyone is straight is one response I heard. Yet no one ever thought for a second when you are in a group of 16 people (or more) that thier sexual orientation is the furthest thing from anyone's minds. It is a non issue until "we're here we're queer get used to it" starts being chanted. I don't feel the need to express my sexual orientation to everyone I see. I am secure enough with it that I don't need to. Even though there are some in the world who don't agree with it. Only to certain people whose pants I am trying to get into do I intentionally make it known. And when we are talking about an online gaming system this is again a non issue. If XBL was a bar then it would be a different story.

nobody's given me a valid, unselfish reason why it should be banned. "i don't like seeing it" is a selfish reason. "other people don't like seeing it either" is still a selfish reason.

putting information in your profile is different from chanting it in voice chat. no one is forcing you to look at other people's profiles. no one is forcing you to care about what you read there.

microsoft allows users to express their nationality, race, gender, and other traits that could create controversy or provoke harassment. and yet, expressing your sexual orientation is ban worthy. meanwhile there are thousands of people who feel the need to express their racism and homophobia to everyone they play with and microsoft does nothing to stop them.

Every time I try to get out they pull me back in.

the only way to win is not to play.

 

[Watcheroftrends]

To everyone who believes EA is wasting their time,

Those who are gay weren't given a choice. They were born as such and will end up living their lives as homosexual persons. You could compare this to someone who is mentally handicapped; they will always be retarded and are forced to accept this as inevitable. Now, would you tease that same person who is mentally retarded? Would you point out to them that they are slow and different (in your opinion, inferior as well) if only to give yourself a "boost"? No, if you're even slightly considerate, you won't be openly making fun of such a person. Now, although being gay isn't quite as life debilitating, what justification would you have for harassing a homosexual? That's just who they are, and it's no different from discriminating the color of a person's skin - something they were just born into - to be treating a gay person differently from everyone else. In that sense, discrimination against gays is just as terrible as slavery.

 

[Foolishman1776]

Actually, I had considered that, and dismissed it. You may not be able to control the base reactions you have, but as I stated, you are not a mindless slave to whatever urge you have, or you'd be lighting people like me on fire every chance you got. As for my analogy of ice cream, I think it's a pretty direct comparison, a person may be predisposed towards a certain flavor, but they can enjoy others, just like say, sex. As I stated, you may not find yourself attracted to the opposite gender, but you are not physically incapable of having sex with them, so until homosexuals grow a third and fourth sex organ, it remains a choice.

homosexuals can't choose to enjoy straight sex anymore than you or i could choose to enjoy gay sex. buteven if it was a choice, what makes homosexuality any worse a choice than heterosexuality?

That you feel the need to "embrace who you are" and "come out of the closet" suggests to me only that you're seeking to validate your choices, as if you yourself aren't completely sure of them. If being homosexual is no big deal, then it's no big deal, but you can't walk around acting in an outrageous manner and not expect someone to react negatively.

what it should suggest to you is that there is overwhelming social pressure on gays to "stay in the closet" and NOT "embrace who they are". i'm not sure what you consider "acting in an outrageous manner", but i hope it doesn't include being honest about oneself.

You state a homosexual individual could not choose to ENJOY straight sex, they are however CAPABLE of it, they have all the right equipment. You seem to think that tastes never change, but I used to HATE chocolate, I mean DESPISE, the mere hint of it made me want to lose my lunch. Now I like chocolate, why is sex different than chocolate? Oh, that's right, so people can play the "oppressed" card. As for one choice being "better" I never placed a value judgment on either, though hetero sex IS the only way to reproduce.

What, you think homosexuals are the only people experiencing social pressure? As for it being "overwhelming" well, people are freaked out by it, you have to see it from their perspective. I dislike when people toss around the phrases "honest about oneself" or "true to oneself". The fact is, people all over the world act in a manner contrary to how they would like to act, either because of legal or social pressure, don't think that homosexuals are the only ones.

Again, I want to state, I am not homophobic, there's lesbian couple living in the next apartment over, we talk a fair bit about politics (civil discussions despite the fact that I'm a moderate and the woman I talk to is decidedly liberal). One of the nicest people I've ever met was a gay man. I am not saying that there's anything wrong with it. I am simply making the point that until homosexuals are unable to reproduce with heterosexuals, it remains a choice. That a person may not enjoy it is immaterial, a person's tastes can change voluntarily or not.

To everyone who believes EA is wasting their time,

Those who are gay weren't given a choice. They were born as such and will end up living their lives as homosexual persons. You could compare this to someone who is mentally handicapped; they will always be retarded and are forced to accept this as inevitable. Now, would you tease that same person who is mentally retarded? Would you point out to them that they are slow and different (in your opinion, inferior as well) if only to give yourself a "boost"? No, if you're even slightly considerate, you won't be openly making fun of such a person. Now, although being gay isn't quite as life debilitating, what justification would you have for harassing a homosexual? That's just who they are, and it's no different from discriminating the color of a person's skin - something they were just born into - to be treating a gay person differently from everyone else. In that sense, discrimination against gays is just as terrible as slavery.

Wow, just wow. So, you're comparing a situation where one may or may not be born liking one thing to a condition that makes a person's brain unable to function properly? You do have a choice, you can choose to do something you don't enjoy, I do that (something I don't enjoy, I mean) every day at work.

No one is saying that it should be okay to harass homosexuals, what people are saying is that why are they so special that we have to take special steps to protect them from hearing anything that upsets them? The measures in place are in place for a reason, there's no need to modify them. It comes down to sometimes, you have to not wear your lifestyle on your sleeve. Sometimes if you can't be honest, you can just keep your mouth shut. There's a difference between being openly gay (if someone cares enough to ask) and standing on top of a building with a bullhorn, and a big hammer to pound your lifestyle down someone's throat.

 

[cobra_ky]

You state a homosexual individual could not choose to ENJOY straight sex, they are however CAPABLE of it, they have all the right equipment. You seem to think that tastes never change, but I used to HATE chocolate, I mean DESPISE, the mere hint of it made me want to lose my lunch. Now I like chocolate, why is sex different than chocolate? Oh, that's right, so people can play the "oppressed" card. As for one choice being "better" I never placed a value judgment on either, though hetero sex IS the only way to reproduce.

you didn't wake up one morning and "choose" to like chocolate all of a sudden. even if people do occasionally change sexualities, i'm not sure why that's relevant. it doesn't explain why homosexuals don't deserve the same rights as other players.

What, you think homosexuals are the only people experiencing social pressure? As for it being "overwhelming" well, people are freaked out by it, you have to see it from their perspective. I dislike when people toss around the phrases "honest about oneself" or "true to oneself". The fact is, people all over the world act in a manner contrary to how they would like to act, either because of legal or social pressure, don't think that homosexuals are the only ones.

i never said they were the only ones. i'm not sure why you think i did.

and being "freaked out" is no excuse for harassment. as a straight male, seeing two guys kiss freaks me out. i look away and ignore them. that's all you have to do.

Wow, just wow. So, you're comparing a situation where one may or may not be born liking one thing to a condition that makes a person's brain unable to function properly? You do have a choice, you can choose to do something you don't enjoy, I do that (something I don't enjoy, I mean) every day at work.

but there's no reason for gays to make that choice. you choose to go to work because you get paid money for it. i choose to go see doctors because it will improve my health. why should gays choose not to embrace their sexuality?

No one is saying that it should be okay to harass homosexuals, what people are saying is that why are they so special that we have to take special steps to protect them from hearing anything that upsets them? The measures in place are in place for a reason, there's no need to modify them.

No one is saying anyone needs to take special steps to protect gays. what people are saying is that policies which are in place to protect everyone need to be enforced consistently for everyone.

It comes down to sometimes, you have to not wear your lifestyle on your sleeve. Sometimes if you can't be honest, you can just keep your mouth shut. There's a difference between being openly gay (if someone cares enough to ask) and standing on top of a building with a bullhorn, and a big hammer to pound your lifestyle down someone's throat.

"waiting for someone to ask" is also known as "don't ask, don't tell", and it's a far cry from openness. you know, there's things in between "keeping your mouth shut" and "standing on top of a building with a bullhorn, and a big hammer to pound your lifestyle down someone's throat". what's wrong with someone just saying "i'm gay", without the bullhorn or the hammer?

 

[squid5580]

1. I am a human and therefore have been discriminated against. May not have been for being gay but does that matter? Even here on the Escapist I have been discriminated against for being an "Xbot". Sad that a person can put you down because of the console you own but it is ok because they aren't doing it because of your sexual orientation.

Okay, see, this is exactly where the "cisgendered heterosexual white males don't understand discrimination" thing comes from.

-- Alex

Why because I can be called something I am not on a forum and it is ok but if I do it over XBL that is different? It is ok for you to hate me because I play on XBL but I can't hate you because you are gay. As far as I am considered hate is hate no matter who it is directed at or why. And name-calling is a far stretch from hate especially in a competetive setting.

Oh right I forgot only homosexuals can be discriminated against. The rest of us have to suck it up and move on. Which is fine except the definition of discrimination is

treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

It is a 2 way street here. Being gay doesn't make your statements any less discrimitory.

 

[squid5580]

I am trying but you are making it really difficult. How is forcing the community to worry about what they say in a room less censorship when they have already provided the least amount of censorship they can without complete and utter freedom? By saying well we need better reporting tools for what? If I send you a hate message it doesn't magically disappear voice or text. You have a record of it for 30 days and the tools to report it already in place. If I call a friend a douchebag in the middle of a deathmatch and you are there to hear it and report me. I get banned. Well isn't that more censorship than I call my friend a douchebag and you take offense and you mute me?

no, because calling people douchebags is already against the code of conduct. the fact that enforcement is poor isn't license to break the rules. besides, there's no guarantee microsoft would ban you anyway. one of the benefits of a recording system is that the violation would be in some sort of context. the penalty for getting excited and calling your friend a douche is going to be much lighter than, say, stalking someone across several rounds just so you can constantly call them a ******.

If there wasn't a system in place to protect everyone already I would be in 100% agreement with you. I just fail to see how the muting system if used properly by you (and this means the player is muted until you decide to unmute them which is how it works) is a failure. The only time it ever fails is if you don't use it. The difference between the 2 systems really boils down to you don't get the satisfaction of revenge. They get to keep playing thier games and you get to keep playing yours. And MS keeps raking in the money and keeps putting new games for the console and everyone is happy.

the biggest problem is for every asshole you mute there are dozens more still out there. there's no actual deterrent against harrassing people over voice chat. even if you only hear eash asshole once, you're still going to be exposed to a lot of hate over time. that's why i wouldn't allow a young child on voice chat, ever.

No one yet has given me a valid unselfish reason as to why they think it matters what your sexual orientation is when gaming and why it should be in your profile. Note the word unselfish. None of this it is who I am because that is a selfish reason. One good reason to have it that would actually benefit the community as a whole. Not the homosexual community but the XBL community. We always assume that everyone is straight is one response I heard. Yet no one ever thought for a second when you are in a group of 16 people (or more) that thier sexual orientation is the furthest thing from anyone's minds. It is a non issue until "we're here we're queer get used to it" starts being chanted. I don't feel the need to express my sexual orientation to everyone I see. I am secure enough with it that I don't need to. Even though there are some in the world who don't agree with it. Only to certain people whose pants I am trying to get into do I intentionally make it known. And when we are talking about an online gaming system this is again a non issue. If XBL was a bar then it would be a different story.

nobody's given me a valid, unselfish reason why it should be banned. "i don't like seeing it" is a selfish reason. "other people don't like seeing it either" is still a selfish reason.

putting information in your profile is different from chanting it in voice chat. no one is forcing you to look at other people's profiles. no one is forcing you to care about what you read there.

microsoft allows users to express their nationality, race, gender, and other traits that could create controversy or provoke harassment. and yet, expressing your sexual orientation is ban worthy. meanwhile there are thousands of people who feel the need to express their racism and homophobia to everyone they play with and microsoft does nothing to stop them.

Every time I try to get out they pull me back in.

the only way to win is not to play.

Yes actually I have given you a valid reason time and time again. It is just that the idea either offends you or you just don't like to accept the fact that the world is the way it is. A controversial subject is controversial as this thread is proof of. I (and I am sure alot of other XBL users) don't log on to have this discussion. I come here or billions of other online sites to do that. MS using wisdom decides well maybe there should be a rule about controversial subjects like this (and many others) not being in one's profile while giving you the user the freedom to not hear anything you find offensive. The very fact that you, I and many others don't think it should be controversial is a non issue. Once the majority of the world accepts it as non controversial then go after MS for it and expect them to change thier policies. Demanding MS to risk thier income first while the rest of the world remains unchanged is ridiculous. They are a business not a minority or special interest group. They should not be expected to be the next Rosa Parks and lead the homosexual civil right movement.

And let's clear the air a bit here. The word may offend you but it doesn't mean the person who uses it hates you. It might be easier for you to believe that but it isn't always the case.

And you have just exposed the biggest problem with a lack of censorship and giving everyone freedom. There are alot of assholes out there. You will hear alot of hate. If you can't accept that then that is your problem. That is the price of freedom. MS has given you the option to mute it. That is alot more than you get out in the real world.

So now that I answered yours are you going to answer mine?