Elves and Dwarves Don't Define Fantasy

[LostAlone]

JRPGs just don't count if you are talking about creativity.

I'm sorry, but they don't.

When your world includes ancient technology, modern technology, magic, gods, demons and christ knows what else all rolled in together, its not creativity, its kitchen sink writing. Will it blend you ask ? No, not really. But no-one cares because its a JRPG and as such the explanations for how basically everything works (and particularly how and from where these suspiciously young characters managed to get a flying aircraft carrier/zepplin) are lost.

Why ? Because they are plot focused games and you just shrug your shoulders at the ugly mix of unrelated things working together and just follow the characters.

The problem with the western approach is of course that fantasy is a setting that seems to poop money, and as such as long as you have elves and dwarfs you will definitely get your game green lit and bought by many many people.

 

[scienceguy8]

This discussion reminds me of a video game idea I had a few years ago. Too bad I'm an electrical engineer by trade!

Unfortunately, it does not solve Yahtzee's "Elves and Dwarves" or "hidden world" problems, but it does put what I thought to be a unique spin on it. My idea was that in the past some cosmic event happened that changed early mankind and animal life into the mythical creatures of fantasy and horror (elves, dwarves, werewolves, vampires, trolls, orcs, magically-inclined humans, etc.). These elements went into hiding. Fast forward to a few years into the future (2020 or somewhere about there), and the United States is in crisis after a major fracturing of the two-party system allows a fringe group called the Ultraconservatives to come to power. Christianity becomes law and political and religious dissidents are send to walled off slums in major U.S. cities. Then things get worse, when the cosmic event happens yet again, turning some plain old humans into mythical creatures and exposing the secret world. Now the Ultraconservatives are rounding up the "Devil Spawn" as well. The game would play as a modern military first person shooter, with you as an alchemist in a rebel army. You have your gun (no surprise there) and a selection of hybrid magic/technology tools to provide all sorts of different effects, like modifying your gun's bullets as they leave the barrel, or controlling certain materials on the battlefield (making a nearby Morning Glory climbing plant suddenly grow and ensnare an Ultraconserv soldier, etc.). There was also an idea for having the magical creatures escape and start terraforming Mars for their own civilization, but that would probably have to wait for a sequel. At this point it seems like I already have too large an info dump for a single game. That's probably why I'm an engineer and not a game designer.

All of that and most likely nobody is going to read it.

EDIT: forgot the most important part about the idea. There would be an effort made to make the races distinct from what we have been conditioned to believe. Standard fantasy elves are fair-skinned, tall, beautiful, with a wisdom beyond their years and a kinship to nature. The elves of the game, however, would indeed be tall and fair, but in varying levels of attractiveness like humans. Kinship to nature? Only insofar as to not deforest their home. Wise? Not really. Their only benefit in the wisdom department is that they live longer (200 years). When young, they can be just as brash and impulsive as normal old humans.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

I still say we should have an RPG based on Celtic lore in something like a modern or futuristic setting. Pure Celtic lore is relatively unexplored compared to some of the other sources out there or maybe some more Arabic influences?

 

[Wriggle Wyrm]

I usually like most of Yatzee?s stuff, but let?s stay away from the ?everyday schlub? gets transported to a magical world or Frodo in New York stuff. They did a ton of that stuff in the 80?s and a whole lot of it sucked. Hercules in New York, Beast Master II and A Kid in King Arthur?s Court Are just a couple that come to mind.

Also, having the workings of a magical world explained to an ignorant character can be fun. The follow-up explanation of modern everyday things such as texting, shopping malls and toilet paper can, however, be truly horrifying.

 

[Fleetfiend]

That blunderbuss space-naval shooting game kind of reminded me of a few scenes from Rogue Galaxy for the PS2. I think that was a good example of going unique with fantasy/sci-fi.

Anyways, I totally agree with the point Yahtzee is trying to make here. I think more fantasy games without stereotypical fantasy creatures and characters would do us all some good. I think that they are used mainly because they are so widely accepted, like he said. People are familiar with them; they don't need explaining, because anyone who has ever had anything to do with fantasy has surely seen them at one point or another. So in one way, it's a lazy way out of having to provide something new, while it still seems solid, regardless of what twists you put on their characters.

I like elves just as much as the next person, and I love reading "classic" fantasy of the sort, but it certainly gets old. However, it also doesn't seem like it's as widespread anymore as it was a few years/decades ago.

 

[disappointed]

I know it's not exactly in line with the fantasy theme but I'd like to put in a good word for realistic historical settings. Playing through Skyrim, I started to get really irritated by the not-Romans and the not-Vikings and all those not-Roman gods. The myths and history of the world are incredibly rich and endlessly fascinating. People think they know them and that it's all old hat but actually most people know very little about them.

It can still be fantasy. If you're going to use an established mythology but a combination of Mickey Mouse copyright laws and Tolkein's descendants' unwillingness to get a job leaves you unable to further J.R.R.'s dream of spawning a new mythology, why not take directly from the Greeks or the Romans or the Scandinavians or the Japanese, Russians, Aboriginal Australians or Americans, any of various African tribes, China, India... Just hit wikipedia and find something cool. There's absolutely no excuse for elves.

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't read or play too much straight up Elves and Dwarves stuff, so I guess it never really wears on me. The same way I only occasionally play shooters, so I have trouble getting bored with them.

CAPTCHA: High Horse.

 

[K4RN4GE911]

Here's where I think the problem with the fantasy genre lie: Coming up with something completely original - as in not ripping off of someone else's work - while not making it sound or appear ridiculous or just plain bizarre. Coming up with something entirely off the fly and actually making it work. It's kind of like with music nowadays. Most of it just sounds alike (to me anyway) because almost all of the styles, combinations, etcetera, etcetera have all been done. Trying to find something different that also works? It's the literal needle in a haystack.

 

[dragonswarrior]

Yahtzee mentions the Dresden Files.

+10 nerd points, and an additional +5 for showing a rudimentary understanding of it.

Now the real question is have you read them...

 

[DeadlyYellow]

You know, I'm likely the minority that places Bioware's primary failing in making entertaining games as their want to try and explain everything in garrulous detail. The more you try, the more pretentious (and wrong) you'll appear.

Also mentioning the classic Shadowrun games just makes me want to cry. Mostly because I consider the series dead due to that first-person reboot (which is gaining increasingly popularity as the way to kill an esteemed franchise.)

 

[Mcupobob]

Yahtzee will just not let this on go will he. I mean I think he has a great point and all that, we could do a lot more to explore fantasy then we have. The whole elves and Tolkien stuff should be put into its on sub-genre or even genre.

 

[seule]

steampunk in space... .. Firefly?

 

[Mordwyl]

Yahtzee's opinion on Dungeons and Dungeons blinded him from the marvel that is Spelljammer.

 

[Howling Din]

Rise of Legends. Shame on any RTS gamer who hasn't played it.

 

[Guardian of Nekops]

The way I see it, there are some very good reasons to stick with elves and dwarves in fantasy, just as there are some very good reasons to keep electricity working in much the same way in science fiction. If you keep batteries and generators from the real world, and just say they work on a new physical principle that lets them be essentially improved versions of what we already have, then you don't have to spend your whole game explaining an alternative electonic theory (which would be very tedious unless that's what your book is about). You can focus instead on the awesome new ideas that started you writing in the first place.

Similarly, if you replace elves, dwarves, goblins and humans with Flish'nir, Garblees, Undermen and De'unies then you have to establish those four cultures for yourself. Nobody has any idea what you're talking about to start with, and therefore it's going to take your players several hours to figure out what is normal.

Now, all this is well and good if your new races are somehow better than the old ones, if the new stuff you're bringing in is actually integral to the story, but if what you really want to talk about is a great civil war and an intriguing magical artifact then there's no real reason to change the rest of it.

At some point, it becomes an issue of language. If you can say what you need to with the concepts your audience already understands, why would you go out of your way to exchange them for a new set you have to explain?

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Ah, yes, Earthbound syndrome. When you're tired of the standard array, build a new array. One that uses baseball bats and fry pans instead of swords, hamburgers and cake instead of health and mana potions, and Mr. Saturns instead of elves. Because, really, if you want to get far away from any elves, what's further away than a Mr. Saturn?

 

[electric method]

Yahtzee has a very good point with this article. The standard "high fantasy" setting has been something I've thought about a fair bit over the years. Even when one looks at fantasy settings outside of video games they'll find the Tolkien archetypes in both books and in movies ad nauseum. Because of that, I was actually quite shocked and pleasantly suprised to see a movie adaptation of "princess of mars" a la "John Carter". Although that is more sci-fi and not a lot of fantasy at all.

Personally I believe that the reason why fantasy almost invariably involves elves and dwarves is comfort level. Meaning, the writers don't have to expend that much creative effort on certain aspects be it backstory, general history or lore because if they stay with the standard fare, it's a built in thing. All they have to do is just make up the names and the larger narrative for how their "dwarves" and "elves" fit into their world.

I generally go out of my way to try to find books (at least) that don't conform to the standard high fantasy setting(s). For e.g. last year I ran across a book called "The Way of Kings" by Brandon Sanderson. It's quite a fresh look into what a fantasy setting can be. The added bonus is he also the author that is finishing "The Wheel of Time" series due to the death of Robert Jordan. I can also remember reading "The Adept" series by Piers Anthony which blends both high fantasy and sci-fi in a unique way that forms the heart of one of the best fantasy series I've ever come across.

Over the many years I've been gaming I've rarely ran into fantasy games that did not have the tolkien archetypes etc, in them. Imo, that makes many games interchangeable and ultimately, stale and boring. I'd personally like to see a lot more creativity from developers creating high fantasy games both in terms of the races and the general stories,instead of shoveling out interchangeable fantasy settings and stories that have been done to death. With gaming being an interactive medium the ability of game developers to deliver interesting and unique stories that are highly immersive is almost unprecesedented. Sadly though, large portions of the industry just keep pushing the ssdd routine.

 

[DioWallachia]

This guy never played Sacrifice in his life. I am not surpriced though, since its the last game in 2000 that was fully original in everyway. So of course, people didnt like it and SHINY Entertaiment went bankrupt after that.

Good bye Sacrifice, MDK, Earthworm Jim and Messiah. The world may never know again

 

[Nurb]

It's easier for people to get into books with elements they're familiar with, and that's the main reason you see so much of the same things. They can visualise dwarves and elves or whatever better than they can a completely fictional race that might be completely new.

It's both good and bad... I do like knowing what I'm getting into if I read a book myself, and it's nice to read "elf" and know immediately what an author is talking about, but on the other hand, all that desire for familiarity people have really makes it difficult for fantasy authors that do go beyond the land of high fantasy in middle-ish ages "Generoupe" to get readers.

It's the old conflict of familiarity vs new.