Epic: 360 Has Yet To Reach Its Limits

[SaintWaldo]

Suggesting that hardware limitations are anything like arbitrary moral guidelines is not quite correct. Hardware limits are specific and concrete. Moral guidelines are abstract and often nebulous. Moral guidelines are much easier to manipulate. If hardware limits are consistently being "pushed," or "worked around," perhaps we didn't quite correctly define those limits.

I would say that Karmac figuring out how to do his framing trick or the analog-bound gun-chasing that Atari programmers did is very much dealing with concrete limits. "You cannot say these seven words" is reasonably analogous to "you have 256k video memory and can copy 16k per cycle", and they are both concrete limits.

How can a memory boundary and a clock cycle NOT be real limits? When you stop thinking about full frame and think about how much you need to show a user who is moving in predictable increments in known directions. How can we make a required 60fps experience look better on the same hardware? by shaving off pixels from resolution and devoting the extra space to filters. How can we depict a circle of kids smoking weed and having a stoner conversation without showing them smoking weed or even mentioning that this is what they are doing? By putting the camera in the place of the person taking the hit and moving the conversation to the person across from them. These are three examples of concrete limits being worked around by compromising the method of depiction.

The limits were there, they were "real" in any arguable sense of the term. The path to the goal had to change, but the overall goal was achieved. This is the gist of my main point. The Pollyanna thing may have been too little coffee in me, so I'll just pretend I didn't say that if you will as well.

 

[bad rider]

Call me when they actually show proof of it.

Talking is easy...

I don't know, a bunch of other developers have said that they're "pushing the 360 to it's limits" while alot of developers are saying "we've only used [x]% of the PS3's power!", so I'll agree with oliveira8 on this one, prove it.

What he's saying is that they will likely be able to push it futher with better software. Saying prove it is impossible unless you know doctor who. However If you want some support for the arguement, looking at past consoles the games that get released later on look better than the earlier ones. So it's likely there is more to push, so to speak.

A push, definately, I'm sure you could squeeze out some awesome things on an Atari 2600. Though everyone always says "Oh yeah, we're stretching the 360 to its limits!" and "We're only using x% of the PS3's processing power!" that it just gets old and all I want is some proof that you're pushing the limits or that you can push it further. And the only way to do that is to make better games

But then when they'll do that and you'll say, yeah but they can't push it any futher prove it to me. And then they will and then you'll be like, then they will, then you'll be like then they will........

 

[The Random One]

Is this news? Every gaming console has had improved capacity as time progressed, since the freakin' Super NES. Was the 360 supposed to be different? I'm seriously asking.

 

[Jumplion]

But then when they'll do that and you'll say, yeah but they can't push it any futher prove it to me. And then they will and then you'll be like, then they will, then you'll be like then they will........

I never said they can't push any further, I'm just saying to prove it to us. It's useless to tell us "Oh, we can still push the 360 further!" if you don't have the evidence to prove it. I absolutely despise anyone who says "Graphics aren't going to get much better" or "There's no point in these crazy ass hardware powers" or something similar.

All I'm saying is if the 360 can be pushed further, do it, don't bother telling us because all we'll hear is some fanboy going around yelling "WE'RE DAH BEST WE CAN DO EVEN MOAR!" instead of showing the money.

You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? And more importantly, walk and talk? And more more importantly, walk and chew bubble gum?

 

[Jumplion]

Ignore please, somehow it double posted.

 

[Minimike3636]

I find Halo Wars to be a fairly good example of how Xbox 360 developers are focusing too much on graphics to make actual GOOD games. Sure, I enjoyed watching the nicely rendered 27-minute long string of Halo Wars cutscenes immediately after beating the game, but why did I appreciate the cutscenes more than the game itself?

Of course the Xbox 360 could be pushed further. IT'S BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T UTILIZING IT'S POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[bad rider]

Call me when they actually show proof of it.

Talking is easy...

I don't know, a bunch of other developers have said that they're "pushing the 360 to it's limits" while alot of developers are saying "we've only used [x]% of the PS3's power!", so I'll agree with oliveira8 on this one, prove it.

What he's saying is that they will likely be able to push it futher with better software. Saying prove it is impossible unless you know doctor who. However If you want some support for the arguement, looking at past consoles the games that get released later on look better than the earlier ones. So it's likely there is more to push, so to speak.

He also said that GoW2 was the 360 limit a couple of years ago. Now the PS3 shows that it can produce more graphical stunning games, Microsoft went "QUICKLY SAY THAT 360 STILL HAS STEAM IN IT!".They can say "It still hasnt reached its limits" but not showing anything to back up those statements makes you question. Valve per example before the OB said that the source engine still had plenty of room to be improved on, and gave a lil' benchmark to show some new stuff on the engine working.


Epic: We pushed the 360 to the limits with GoW2!!
Guerilla releases Killzone 2
Epic:The 360 hasnt reached its limit yet! We just need to fiddle with software and all that..stuff, hahaha, ignore my previous comments of GoW2 being the 360 limit! kk?

Pretty much what I'm seeing here.

Yeah, but that's just corporate dick waving. When they make gears of war three they'll be "really pushing it to the limits" it dosen't end there is no definitive limit to how powerful a machine is because (in my opinion) because there is always a trick being missed or software that can be more efficient.

 

[bad rider]

But then when they'll do that and you'll say, yeah but they can't push it any futher prove it to me. And then they will and then you'll be like, then they will, then you'll be like then they will........

I never said they can't push any further, I'm just saying to prove it to us. It's useless to tell us "Oh, we can still push the 360 further!" if you don't have the evidence to prove it. I absolutely despise anyone who says "Graphics aren't going to get much better" or "There's no point in these crazy ass hardware powers" or something similar.

All I'm saying is if the 360 can be pushed further, do it, don't bother telling us because all we'll hear is some fanboy going around yelling "WE'RE DAH BEST WE CAN DO EVEN MOAR!" instead of showing the money.

You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? And more importantly, walk and talk? And more more importantly, walk and chew bubble gum?

My point is you can't prove it! It happens without warning. When you use a different engines you can start pushing towards more power like when epic started using the new unreal engine. Shouting you can't prove it is ridiculous, because you can't. If we could bring out the ultimate software for something then we would have, but as we can see through semi constant improvements and researches there is always more to push.

All I'm saying is if the 360 can be pushed further, do it, don't bother telling us because all we'll hear is some fanboy going around yelling "WE'RE DAH BEST WE CAN DO EVEN MOAR!" instead of showing the money.

Well thats right I'm a dickish fanboy for taking up the opposite point. Look i''ll admit I can't prove anything definitively, but if you look at the way software progresses develops and changes you'll see it's likely there is more to push. But if we want to start sticking a, well if you try and make a point your obviously a fanboy and I'm not gonna listen, then thankyou for engaging in an arguement not a discussion.

 

[Doug]

To be honest, this is all corporate penis contesting. Someone from Sony, I recall, said words to this effect about the PS3 too. And an Xbox developer is following suit.

And neither of them even recognize that Graphical Quality != Game Quality. As well as fanboys on both sides.

 

[Reaperman Wompa]

I wonder if they can use all that "extra space" to Describe the homoerotic nature of Most of their games?

"Okay, we've got the brown and reds working, I think thats it...Well look at all this space, hmm..."

"Well we could, you know, work on that story I wrote..."

"The one where Baird and Cole "Train" make a porno?"

"It's not a porno! They just kill a Locust horde and feel like expressing themselves... to each other..."

"Why the hell not, Goodness knows we know how to make in depth and believable emotional scenes, this can't go wrong, but what will we call that chapter of the game?"

"Here comes the Cole train?"

Failing that then they should work on adding some of the colors actually present on a rainbow.

 

[Doug]

I wonder if they can use all that "extra space" to Describe the homoerotic nature of Most of their games?

"Okay, we've got the brown and reds working, I think thats it...Well look at all this space, hmm..."

"Well we could, you know, work on that story I wrote..."

"The one where Baird and Cole "Train" make a porno?"

"It's not a porno! They just kill a Locust horde and feel like expressing themselves... to each other..."

"Why the hell not, Goodness knows we know how to make in depth and believable emotional scenes, this can't go wrong, but what will we call that chapter of the game?"

"Here comes the Cole train?"

Failing that then they should work on adding some of the colors actually present on a rainbow.

There isn't enough space in the world to describe the unlying homoeroticness of GoW 1/2, heh.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

I enjoy the fact that few people in this thread have stopped to consider if Epic was acctually talking about graphics or not. They only said they were pushing the limitations of the system. Has anyone ever stopped to think that could mean longer games? Better animations? More creative engines? Honestly, I would rather see an overall more interesting game than a better looking one.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

the biggest issue with the 360 is not the cpu/gpu combo, it's the dvd they use in the console and the fact that m$ likes to force developers to use only 1 disc and not multiple ones that would allow you to have better looking games

 

[Jumplion]

But then when they'll do that and you'll say, yeah but they can't push it any futher prove it to me. And then they will and then you'll be like, then they will, then you'll be like then they will........

I never said they can't push any further, I'm just saying to prove it to us. It's useless to tell us "Oh, we can still push the 360 further!" if you don't have the evidence to prove it. I absolutely despise anyone who says "Graphics aren't going to get much better" or "There's no point in these crazy ass hardware powers" or something similar.

All I'm saying is if the 360 can be pushed further, do it, don't bother telling us because all we'll hear is some fanboy going around yelling "WE'RE DAH BEST WE CAN DO EVEN MOAR!" instead of showing the money.

You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? And more importantly, walk and talk? And more more importantly, walk and chew bubble gum?

My point is you can't prove it! It happens without warning. When you use a different engines you can start pushing towards more power like when epic started using the new unreal engine. Shouting you can't prove it is ridiculous, because you can't. If we could bring out the ultimate software for something then we would have, but as we can see through semi constant improvements and researches there is always more to push.

All I'm saying is if the 360 can be pushed further, do it, don't bother telling us because all we'll hear is some fanboy going around yelling "WE'RE DAH BEST WE CAN DO EVEN MOAR!" instead of showing the money.

Well thats right I'm a dickish fanboy for taking up the opposite point. Look i''ll admit I can't prove anything definitively, but if you look at the way software progresses develops and changes you'll see it's likely there is more to push. But if we want to start sticking a, well if you try and make a point your obviously a fanboy and I'm not gonna listen, then thankyou for engaging in an arguement not a discussion.

Whoa whoa, I never said that you're a dickish fanboy for taking the opposing point, I'm sorry if you read it that way. I was referencing what the gears guy was doing, not you, hell no, sorry for that misunderstanding I probably should have been clearer.

But the thing is, you can prove it. By making more games. In the early days of the PS2, people thought it couldn't push any farther, then BAM God of War 1+2 showed that the PS2 still has a helluva lot of juice in it.

You can prove that console x has more power in it, but I will agree that you can't notice it right away. But the only way to prove that the 360, PS3, or whatever console has more juice in it is to make a better game.

Gears of War 3 has to be tremendously better than Gears of War 2 and it has to show off the capabilities of the 360 beyond its limit. This can only be proven through the evolution of gaming.

We both agree, it's not instantaneous, but it is there and it is provable. All you have to do is make your games better and better.

 

[bad rider]

But then when they'll do that and you'll say, yeah but they can't push it any futher prove it to me. And then they will and then you'll be like, then they will, then you'll be like then they will........

I never said they can't push any further, I'm just saying to prove it to us. It's useless to tell us "Oh, we can still push the 360 further!" if you don't have the evidence to prove it. I absolutely despise anyone who says "Graphics aren't going to get much better" or "There's no point in these crazy ass hardware powers" or something similar.

All I'm saying is if the 360 can be pushed further, do it, don't bother telling us because all we'll hear is some fanboy going around yelling "WE'RE DAH BEST WE CAN DO EVEN MOAR!" instead of showing the money.

You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? And more importantly, walk and talk? And more more importantly, walk and chew bubble gum?

My point is you can't prove it! It happens without warning. When you use a different engines you can start pushing towards more power like when epic started using the new unreal engine. Shouting you can't prove it is ridiculous, because you can't. If we could bring out the ultimate software for something then we would have, but as we can see through semi constant improvements and researches there is always more to push.

All I'm saying is if the 360 can be pushed further, do it, don't bother telling us because all we'll hear is some fanboy going around yelling "WE'RE DAH BEST WE CAN DO EVEN MOAR!" instead of showing the money.

Well thats right I'm a dickish fanboy for taking up the opposite point. Look i''ll admit I can't prove anything definitively, but if you look at the way software progresses develops and changes you'll see it's likely there is more to push. But if we want to start sticking a, well if you try and make a point your obviously a fanboy and I'm not gonna listen, then thankyou for engaging in an arguement not a discussion.

Whoa whoa, I never said that you're a dickish fanboy for taking the opposing point, I'm sorry if you read it that way. I was referencing what the gears guy was doing, not you, hell no, sorry for that misunderstanding I probably should have been clearer.

But the thing is, you can prove it. By making more games. In the early days of the PS2, people thought it couldn't push any farther, then BAM God of War 1+2 showed that the PS2 still has a helluva lot of juice in it.

You can prove that console x has more power in it, but I will agree that you can't notice it right away. But the only way to prove that the 360, PS3, or whatever console has more juice in it is to make a better game.

Gears of War 3 has to be tremendously better than Gears of War 2 and it has to show off the capabilities of the 360 beyond its limit. This can only be proven through the evolution of gaming.

We both agree, it's not instantaneous, but it is there and it is provable. All you have to do is make your games better and better.

Fair enough, my bad I just really dislike being called a fanboy considering I feel like I give both consoles credit where credits due...
In any I think you summed that one up quite nicely.

Edit: Sorry I just realized how badly i misread that, sorry, really sorry I'll blame this one on five hours of psychlogy revision.......

 

[JRGR]

Those worms were cool...

 

[Boxinatorizore]

One- Theres always going to be a better looking game. Some day even crysis will be surpassed.
Two - ... Epic are a bright as the characters in their games.

 

[Jumplion]

360s have shit graphics, as do all the other consoles these days. PCs are where it's at.

While choosing not to take the more easily accessable route with console gaming, PC gamers consider themselves to be a privileged few, much like the upper class or the Nazis.

Oh, and Killzone 2 looks as good as Crysis.

And you don't even have to install it, that's the kicker right there!