EU Bans Claim Water Prevents Dehydration

[PhiMed]

I'm struggling to see how the EU possibly has a case here.

All the other times it was things like only certain bananas had a curviness standard, not your regular bog-standard simply labelled "bananas" type of banana.

But things like saying:

"It declared that shortage of water in the body was just a symptom of dehydration."

That's rather explicit, that seems far too bold faced a lie and if they really did say that that is outrageous to say the cause is a symptom. Symptoms are things like blurred vision, reduced mental clarity, change in urine colour, you know, indications of what is actually happening!

Drinking water doesn't help ease dehydration as much as you would think. You need salt along with the water. Plain water by itself could make things even worse for you.

I need to know the whole story on this one.

Except dehydration is separate from low blood-salinity, Hyponatremia. They may appear similar but they are distinct.

Dehydration IS a lack of water, introducing water DOES counter that. HYDRATION. You have to drink and sweat crazy amounts before hypoatremia becomes a problem.

In only 13% of top athletes who run triathlons experience technical Hypoatremia and they are consuming VAST amounts of water in hot climates, over long distances and have a very targeted glucose-intense diet that tends to cut out salt because... well... salt is bad for you, right?

Also Hyponatremia is very unlikely in the public considering how salty our diets our anyway, you can't get away from the high levels of salt in all our foods and the main mode of loss of sodium (the important part of salt) is when water is lost through sweating. How often do you sweat enough to soak your clothes all the way through?

Actually, hyponatremia is a result of correcting volume depletion with water. Volume depletion is a result of losing isotonic fluid. Dehydration is a result of losing hypotonic fluid. Water is about as hypotonic a fluid as there is, so water most definitely corrects dehydration.

Hyponatremia generally only occurs in amateur athletes who don't really have any business attempting the task at hand. Heat conditioning generally results in the secretion of a more dilute sweat which can easily be replaced with water.

So yet again, dumbasses spoil it for everyone.

Hmm, I never heard of "heat conditioning" reducing sodium loss through sweating. Got anything to back that up? Sure it isn't just the athletes subtly adjust their diet for higher sodium? Remember, it's sodium that is important, not the chloride part of salt/sodium-chloride.

Sources would be nice (can't be that hard to collect sweat of different athletes and compare sodium levels)

<link=http://books.google.com/books?id=L4aZIDbmV3oC&pg=PA532&lpg=PA532&dq=heat+conditioning+exercise+physiology&source=bl&ots=WloTo9Jj-R&sig=fun9llvD0zuPbuSKGvJrJsrmPs0&hl=en&ei=AODMTrekNciItwfbtvh9&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false>Essentials of exercise physiology

It's a pretty well-established, accepted principle of physiology. There's a big table on the page I linked to that details the physiolgic changes that take place when people become conditioned to heat stress. Maybe try reading more before you start calling people out on science next time.

I didn't call you out, I simply asked that you provide sources to confirm your claims.

After all, If I believe you how can I possibly pass on that information by saying "oh yeah, some guy on a forum who I don't know, have never met and don't even know his real name said so". It's always great to have first hand information otherwise for any ideas to spread very quickly you have people expecting to believe third hand info.

Sources, quite simply, are nice.

"Maybe try reading more"

Hey, I shouldn't have to search for hours to verify your claim that you could easily point me to where you learned it.

Nonsense. You've berated everyone in this forum, asking for sources, and I don't think I've seen you provide a single one. It took me about 1 1/2 seconds to find this source. I googled "heat conditioning exercise physiology" and it was the very first link. If you had to search for hours, you're doing it wrong.

A truly intellectually curious conversant would've found this out for themselves. You're a sauce troll. You make claims without any knowledge of the subject, and without backing them up, and then demand sources from everyone who, correctly, calls you out when you're incorrect.

You just say what you believe to be true, and then when someone contradicts you, you ask them for a source, saying "it only makes sense." Try taking your own advice, guy.

 

[Treblaine]

Nonsense. You've berated everyone in this forum, asking for sources, and I don't think I've seen you provide a single one. It took me about 1 1/2 seconds to find this source. I googled "heat conditioning exercise physiology" and it was the very first link. If you had to search for hours, you're doing it wrong.

A truly intellectually curious conversant would've found this out for themselves. You're a sauce troll. You make claims without any knowledge of the subject, and without backing them up, and then demand sources from everyone who, correctly, calls you out when you're incorrect.

You just say what you believe to be true, and then when someone contradicts you, you ask them for a source, saying "it only makes sense." Try taking your own advice, guy.

Huh? At the centre of all my arguments is only the factual claim I have made is that water is hydrating...

Do I really need as source to back that up?!!?!?

If you would like specific sources I'll find them for you, just ask.

 

[Vegosiux]

Huh? At the centre of all my arguments is only the factual claim I have made is that water is hydrating...

So is just about every other drink in existence. The EU did not ban the claim, it banned the use of said claim as a sales pitch. Of course, people are going to still jump on the sensationalist anti-EU bandwagon.

Facts? Hah!

 

[Treblaine]

Huh? At the centre of all my arguments is only the factual claim I have made is that water is hydrating...

So is just about every other drink in existence. The EU did not ban the claim, it banned the use of said claim as a sales pitch. Of course, people are going to still jump on the sensationalist anti-EU bandwagon.

Facts? Hah!

Yes, why should anyone not be allowed to use any fact to sell something?

IT IS A FACT! Why is it different in selling?

Surely when it comes to selling things withholding facts is the LAST thing any governmental type body should be doing? Why are they trying to hide scientific truths?

Unless you think there is something wrong with selling things? So wrong it justifies hiding facts from being presented to the public! Isn't this just a petty anti-commerce stance and censorship?

No one should have a monopoly on the facts. The truth is for all. It's hypocrisy to withhold the truth being used to sell beverages, as it is to suppress it anywhere.

"Facts? Hah!"

Seems to be precisely the attitude towards people who are trying to control truth for only their purposes.

"people are going to still jump on the sensationalist anti-EU bandwagon."

Straw man argument, *YAWN* you dismiss this as just prejudice, well sorry but this case - this time - there is no hyperbole, the EU are simply making an anti-business decision. Ooh, but of course the corporations are EEEEEVIL! Fuck the truth, anything that can hurt the organisations that have given us so much great stuff like clothes, services, games, movies, gadgets![/sarc]

 

[Kreett]

This is the greatest scientific discovery since they concluded that medieval plate armor was heavy!

 

[Vegosiux]

Yes, why should anyone not be allowed to use any fact to sell something?

IT IS A FACT! Why is it different in selling?

No, it's not. Water does not prevent dehydration. You can drink a bottle of water and you'll still dehydrate if you go run a marathon afterwards. Half a liter of water isn't even going to last you a day of sitting around and doing nothing.

Also, see above post. Maybe they should start using "You can drink it!" as a sales pitch too, huh?

 

[AngelSephy]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. How does water NOT reduce dehydration? I mean, seriously? Did they not pay attention in Science and Health? I just... I don't know what to think anymore. Common sense is dying, and mass retardation is reigning supreme!

Europe has some serious issues. But then again, this is news to me that Congress ruled Pizza as a vegetable...

 

[Vegosiux]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. How does water NOT reduce dehydration?

Since when "reduce == prevent"?

 

[AngelSephy]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. How does water NOT reduce dehydration?

Since when "reduce == prevent"?

I worded it wrong. Excuse me for making a mistake. :\

 

[Treblaine]

Yes, why should anyone not be allowed to use any fact to sell something?

IT IS A FACT! Why is it different in selling?

No, it's not. Water does not prevent dehydration. You can drink a bottle of water and you'll still dehydrate if you go run a marathon afterwards. Half a liter of water isn't even going to last you a day of sitting around and doing nothing.

Also, see above post. Maybe they should start using "You can drink it!" as a sales pitch too, huh?

WHAT BOLLOCKS! That's JUST THE SAME as saying if you don't eat enough food then you will starve... therefore food has nothing to do with preventing starvation!!!

Actually the claim was (and what I reiterated) that water HELPS PREVENT dehydration by the mode of hydration. Both of which are bloody facts.

 

[Treblaine]

Yes, why should anyone not be allowed to use any fact to sell something?
IT IS A FACT! Why is it different in selling?

For one thing water only lessens dehydration, it doesn't prevent it. Secondly, they were specifically claiming bottled water from their source is better than other types of water, which is completely deceptive. Bottled water is by no means better, and in some cases, like compared to Dutch tap water, even worse, because tap water here has to pass very rigid demands on a chemical and bacteriological scale, and tap water often isn't even checked for chemical pollutants because they blindly trust their source. Most of the time rightly so, but if someone accidently drills into their source they're basically selling contaminated water.

And protecting consumers by forbidding deceptive marketing is a good thing.

The fact they wanted to state was "helps prevent dehydration". That is the fact they were forbidden from using to sell any hydrating beverage.

With ENOUGH water, it will most assuredly prevent dehydration.

This is NOT an argument just for bottled water, their inquiry was on any hydrating source, such as even tap water that is sold can they state this simple fact that it may help prevent dehydration.

[HEADING=2]"And protecting consumers by forbidding deceptive marketing is a good thing."[/HEADING]

Repeatedly established that it is a scientific fact that water helps prevent dehydration...

Yet this is somehow deceptive marketing to use to sell something...

Not "magic cure, any volume" but "helps prevent".

 

[Darkmantle]

WHAT BOLLOCKS! That's JUST THE SAME as saying if you don't eat enough food then you will starve... therefore food has nothing to do with preventing starvation!!!

Well, if you're so convinced, let's turn this into a science experiment. You drink bottled water, and then don't drink anything at all for a full week. If you're not experiencing any symptoms of dehydration by then, you win.

Okay, next time you get an infection, only take your first dose of anti-biotics and then don't take anymore for a week. if your infection comes back, I win.

if you get cancer only go to your first chemo session and don't go for a month, if tthe cancer gets worse, I win.

if you are in severe and constant pain, just out of surgery for example (maybe after getting that cancer removed) only take pain meds for one day. if your pain comes back, I win.


dumb argument is dumb.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I think human stupidity finally reached the bottom. You can't get any dumber than this. Everybody knows that water eases the dehydration you fuckin' morons. Saying that it doesn't won't change the facts.

 

[Noswad]

News just in, more people taken in by an "isn't the EU stupid story" I thought everyone knew that these storys were rubbish, I mean for god sake the article quotes the straight banana story, which if you didn't consider complete rubbish first time round, you may have noticed that curved bananas still stock our supermarket shelves.

Oh and for those of you who didn't click on the link, you will discover that this story originated from the daily mail, sooooo yeah. Not wanting to offend anyone who reads it, but I'd double check everything I read there, especially articles concerning the EU.

It's such a shame, the EU is a massive movement in Global politics, sovereign nations slowly releasing there grip on power to a central authority. There are real issues to be discussed here, will the single currency survive, can Europe develop a single foreign policy and is the EU doing enough to be democratic, just to give a few examples and yet we still insist on getting bogged down in this shit.

Seriously whether your a Eurosceptic or a Europhile(real word, trust me) can we please just stop it.

 

[Treblaine]

WHAT BOLLOCKS! That's JUST THE SAME as saying if you don't eat enough food then you will starve... therefore food has nothing to do with preventing starvation!!!

Well, if you're so convinced, let's turn this into a science experiment. You drink bottled water, and then don't drink anything at all for a full week. If you're not experiencing any symptoms of dehydration by then, you win.

Yeah, I am pretty bloody convinced. That with the proper requirement of water I won't get dehydrated, not that any tiny amount of water will prevent dehydration for an indefinite length of time!

Your demand is the PRECISE OPPOSITE of the stated facts!

The bottle of water a week ago is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to a week where all water is artificially removed from my diet that will surely speed dehydration. What insultingly backwards "science experiment", it's pure anti-science.

Saying "helps prevent dehydration" is NOT THE SAME as "will permanently prevent dehydration with one dose for a lifetime to the point where no other sources of hydration are ever needed".

 

[Treblaine]

News just in, more people taken in by an "isn't the EU stupid story" I thought everyone knew that these storys were rubbish, I mean for god sake the article quotes the straight banana story, which if you didn't consider complete rubbish first time round, you may have noticed that curved bananas still stock our supermarket shelves.

Oh and for those of you who didn't click on the link, you will discover that this story originated from the daily mail, sooooo yeah. Not wanting to offend anyone who reads it, but I'd double check everything I read there, especially articles concerning the EU.

It's such a shame, the EU is a massive movement in Global politics, sovereign nations slowly releasing there grip on power to a central authority. There are real issues to be discussed here, will the single currency survive, can Europe develop a single foreign policy and is the EU doing enough to be democratic, just to give a few examples and yet we still insist on getting bogged down in this shit.

Seriously whether your a Eurosceptic or a Europhile(real word, trust me) can we please just stop it.

In summary: shoot the messenger, guilty-by-association and change the subject.

"can we please just stop it."

Yes, stop the criticism. This undemocratic board taking our money and involving themselves in our state affairs are beyond public criticism or scrutiny[/sarc]

 

[Treblaine]

WHAT BOLLOCKS! That's JUST THE SAME as saying if you don't eat enough food then you will starve... therefore food has nothing to do with preventing starvation!!!

Well, if you're so convinced, let's turn this into a science experiment. You drink bottled water, and then don't drink anything at all for a full week. If you're not experiencing any symptoms of dehydration by then, you win.

Okay, next time you get an infection, only take your first dose of anti-biotics and then don't take anymore for a week. if your infection comes back, I win.

if you get cancer only go to your first chemo session and don't go for a month, if tthe cancer gets worse, I win.

if you are in severe and constant pain, just out of surgery for example (maybe after getting that cancer removed) only take pain meds for one day. if your pain comes back, I win.


dumb argument is dumb.

Welcome to the great euro-debate.

i-don't-want-to-live-on-this-continent-any-more.jpg

 

[Reishadowen]

[sarcasm]
Only in the EU
[/sarcasm]

I don't think any one country or group of countries have a monopoly on this kind of stupidity.

Tory MEP Roger Helmer said: ?This is stupidity writ large. The euro is burning, the EU is falling apart and yet here they are worrying about the obvious qualities of water. If ever there were an episode which demonstrates the folly of the great European project, then this is it.?

I think this quote here just about sums it up perfectly. As...absolutely face-slappingly stupefied as I was at this news, it's more of what we've already seen: bureaucratic BS taking over simple sense. But hey, maybe it's not so bad, maybe the news just got the whole thing a little too far out of proportion, and this really isn't all that-

The decision was being hailed as the daftest Brussels edict since the EU sent down laws on how bendy bananas should be.

...oh for f*ck's sake.

You know what? We're screwed. Whether it's because they're morons, or just doing everything they can to bury their heads in the sand and not deal with the bigger issues, we're just plain screwed either way.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong, I'd seriously be glad to hear it right now... -_-

 

[PhiMed]

Nonsense. You've berated everyone in this forum, asking for sources, and I don't think I've seen you provide a single one. It took me about 1 1/2 seconds to find this source. I googled "heat conditioning exercise physiology" and it was the very first link. If you had to search for hours, you're doing it wrong.

A truly intellectually curious conversant would've found this out for themselves. You're a sauce troll. You make claims without any knowledge of the subject, and without backing them up, and then demand sources from everyone who, correctly, calls you out when you're incorrect.

You just say what you believe to be true, and then when someone contradicts you, you ask them for a source, saying "it only makes sense." Try taking your own advice, guy.

Huh? At the centre of all my arguments is only the factual claim I have made is that water is hydrating...

Do I really need as source to back that up?!!?!?

If you would like specific sources I'll find them for you, just ask.

No factual claims?

I'm struggling to see how the EU possibly has a case here.

All the other times it was things like only certain bananas had a curviness standard, not your regular bog-standard simply labelled "bananas" type of banana.

But things like saying:

"It declared that shortage of water in the body was just a symptom of dehydration."

That's rather explicit, that seems far too bold faced a lie and if they really did say that that is outrageous to say the cause is a symptom. Symptoms are things like blurred vision, reduced mental clarity, change in urine colour, you know, indications of what is actually happening!

Drinking water doesn't help ease dehydration as much as you would think. You need salt along with the water. Plain water by itself could make things even worse for you.

I need to know the whole story on this one.

Except dehydration is separate from low blood-salinity, Hyponatremia. They may appear similar but they are distinct.

Dehydration IS a lack of water, introducing water DOES counter that. HYDRATION. You have to drink and sweat crazy amounts before hypoatremia becomes a problem.

In only 13% of top athletes who run triathlons experience technical Hypoatremia and they are consuming VAST amounts of water in hot climates, over long distances and have a very targeted glucose-intense diet that tends to cut out salt because... well... salt is bad for you, right?

Also Hyponatremia is very unlikely in the public considering how salty our diets our anyway, you can't get away from the high levels of salt in all our foods and the main mode of loss of sodium (the important part of salt) is when water is lost through sweating. How often do you sweat enough to soak your clothes all the way through?

Um... really?

Look, I agree that the EU is wrong here. I just pointed out that you were incorrect about the nature and incidence of hyponatremia, how it develops, in which groups it occurs, and why.

You responded by making air quotes at me when I used the phrase heat conditioning.

Kind of a dick move.

And telling people to cite things that can be looked up in less than 10 seconds is still pretty much the definition of intellectual laziness.

 

[Treblaine]

Nonsense. You've berated everyone in this forum, asking for sources, and I don't think I've seen you provide a single one. It took me about 1 1/2 seconds to find this source. I googled "heat conditioning exercise physiology" and it was the very first link. If you had to search for hours, you're doing it wrong.

A truly intellectually curious conversant would've found this out for themselves. You're a sauce troll. You make claims without any knowledge of the subject, and without backing them up, and then demand sources from everyone who, correctly, calls you out when you're incorrect.

You just say what you believe to be true, and then when someone contradicts you, you ask them for a source, saying "it only makes sense." Try taking your own advice, guy.

Huh? At the centre of all my arguments is only the factual claim I have made is that water is hydrating...

Do I really need as source to back that up?!!?!?

If you would like specific sources I'll find them for you, just ask.

No factual claims?

I'm struggling to see how the EU possibly has a case here.

All the other times it was things like only certain bananas had a curviness standard, not your regular bog-standard simply labelled "bananas" type of banana.

But things like saying:

"It declared that shortage of water in the body was just a symptom of dehydration."

That's rather explicit, that seems far too bold faced a lie and if they really did say that that is outrageous to say the cause is a symptom. Symptoms are things like blurred vision, reduced mental clarity, change in urine colour, you know, indications of what is actually happening!

Drinking water doesn't help ease dehydration as much as you would think. You need salt along with the water. Plain water by itself could make things even worse for you.

I need to know the whole story on this one.

Except dehydration is separate from low blood-salinity, Hyponatremia. They may appear similar but they are distinct.

Dehydration IS a lack of water, introducing water DOES counter that. HYDRATION. You have to drink and sweat crazy amounts before hypoatremia becomes a problem.

In only 13% of top athletes who run triathlons experience technical Hypoatremia and they are consuming VAST amounts of water in hot climates, over long distances and have a very targeted glucose-intense diet that tends to cut out salt because... well... salt is bad for you, right?

Also Hyponatremia is very unlikely in the public considering how salty our diets our anyway, you can't get away from the high levels of salt in all our foods and the main mode of loss of sodium (the important part of salt) is when water is lost through sweating. How often do you sweat enough to soak your clothes all the way through?

Um... really?

Look, I agree that the EU is wrong here. I just pointed out that you were incorrect about the nature and incidence of hyponatremia, how it develops, in which groups it occurs, and why.

You responded by making air quotes at me when I used the phrase heat conditioning.

Kind of a dick move.

And telling people to cite things that can be looked up in less than 10 seconds is still pretty much the definition of intellectual laziness.

"looked up in less than 10 seconds"

Earlier you said it took you (who knew just what you were looking for) a minute and a half, now it's under 10 seconds. Huh?

If you want the source of that empirical observation you only had to ask:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/hydrationandfluid/a/Hyponatremia.htm

Anyway, hypoatremia is very tangential to the actual point of discussion, that is how under any circumstance the someone can consider it Illegal to state the fact that water helps prevent dehydration.

I didn't put Heat Conditioning in "air quotes" I put them in what are known simply as "quotes". I did so to clarify which particular term I was curious about. I had no idea anybody could be so sensitive about this. That is how quotation marks are used and nothing mean-spirited or callous is meant by them!

You seem to be blowing a lot of this out of proportion, like the "... well... salt is bad for you, right?" is clearly sardonic, not factual in an assertive way.