Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues

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Seanfall

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DrVornoff said:
Seanfall said:
Bioware an underdog? no...it makes them sellouts.
"Sellout" is an overused term and doesn't apply in the example given. In fact, it doesn't apply 99% of the time people use it.

Mr.Tea said:
A lot more art is made with marketability in mind rather than with delivering the artist's pure vision to an audience to make a powerful statement.
You think that was the case under a patronage system?

First of all, Bioware/EA/Mass Effect is a big commercial machine with strict deadlines, not a single artist's lifetime achievement pouring his heart out to deliver enlightenment to the masses, as it seems too many people like to imagine.
Once again implying that commercialism and artistry must be mutually exclusive.
I noticed your not refuting that the ending made no sense. And yes...when you work for a company that has the rep EA has you've 'sold out'. How many times has it already been shown that Bioware comprised their 'artistic vision' for EA and profit? Just because it's fans who want them to change something suddenly it's out of the question. But when a publisher who has no artistic integrity makes them do something no one questions it.
 

Vault Citizen

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I'm still not sure where I stand on this issue. One of the arguments used is against changing the ending is that the same wouldn't be asked of someone writing a book or making a movie, but games can be tweaked to a much greater extent than either of those mediums. If you wanted to change the ending of a book you would have to release a new book and if you wanted to change the ending of a movie you would have to release a new edition of that moive. However with video games it is something that can be done with a patch or dlc depending on the nature of the change.

I am not denying that the ending is horrible, I even think it would be nice if it were changed. I think if I were to really think about it at the end of the day no one can force Bioware to change it, if the ending to Mass Effect is an ending that they truly stand behind, despite the hugely negative feedback then they should stick with it. I think it is ok to ask that they change it, but ultimately it is Bioware's decision.

Also in future they might want to stear clear of Peter Molyneux, I don't know if they've met but from the pre Mass Effect 3 marketing I've seen and from the ending they have clearly picked up some of his bad habits.
 

Seanfall

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DrVornoff said:
Mr.Tea said:
I'm saying that the difference between now and then is that it's a lot more economically viable to be an artist.
That much is true.

Just about anybody can fancy themselves an artist these days (with the accessibility of digital art) and have a pretty good chance of not starving to death since it's not just nobility or very rich bourgeois consuming art anymore. There is more creation of art and more consumption of art all around.
Here's where I disagree. With the barriers to entry coming down, that mean doesn't just anybody can hang up a shingle and quit their dayjob. It's more economically viable, but it still takes a lot of work to build up and keep an audience as well as be able to consistently turn out new material that they'd want to spend their money on.

Jonathon Coulton for example has proven that it can be done. And while Soulja Boi showed that talent isn't always necessary to get fans, I don't think he has much in the way of longevity, and the field is littered with the bones of thousands of other hacks who couldn't make it.

Not to say that hoping to get paid for your creation ruins art, but ME3's ending is a clash of the huge differences between "this might not be popular, but dammit I want to get this message out there" and "let's make something everyone can enjoy". See, ME had been part of the latter case all the way to the ending, but at the last second, the design choice shifted to the former.

Someone likely figured "everyone will probably buy it anyway now, so we're not taking such a big commercial risk by rushing the end and tacking on some 'statement'". And you know, it could have worked, but it ultimately did not belong with the rest of their creation.
I don't deny that's possible. But I try to give creative teams the benefit of the doubt because I've found myself in positions where I ran out of money or time or last access to talent and had to turn out a shit finished product because better to finish it than to let it languish in limbo forever.

It's not the complaints people have that I take issue with. It's how some have chosen to express them.

Seanfall said:
I noticed your not refuting that the ending made no sense.
Because I too thought the ending was bad.

And yes...when you work for a company that has the rep EA has you've 'sold out'. How many times has it already been shown that Bioware comprised their 'artistic vision' for EA and profit?
To the first sentence, guilt be association? Really?

To your question, enlighten me.

Just because it's fans who want them to change something suddenly it's out of the question. But when a publisher who has no artistic integrity makes them do something no one questions it.
Actually, I have repeatedly expressed my dislike of EA for the terrible way they treat their people. It's likely I won't be finishing the Dragon Age trilogy specifically because of that.
Wait you agree the ending is bad? Then...why are we having this conversation? If the ending is bad then what is wrong with Bioware fixing it? You agree that it breaks down the narrative cohesion, is nonsensical and disregards what the rest of the series has been building up to? So...what is wrong with it being changed? Cause it violates some ill-defined artistic integrity?

Guilt by Association. No their not guilty for working for EA their guilty by allowing EA to pressure them to change things. Why is this different from Fans? Cause Fans care about the story, the Characters, the interactions and the world that was built. EA cares about profit.
 

thememan

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Vault Citizen said:
I'm still not sure where I stand on this issue. One of the arguments used is against changing the ending is that the same wouldn't be asked of someone writing a book or making a movie, but games can be tweaked to a much greater extent than either of those mediums. If you wanted to change the ending of a book you would have to release a new book and if you wanted to change the ending of a movie you would have to release a new edition of that moive. However with video games it is something that can be done with a patch or dlc depending on the nature of the change.
Which is a whole load of crock, as it is not an unprecedented practice in either the literary or film medias to alter a product after a release to appeal to public demand. In fact some of the greatest works of literature and film have done just that. People taking this route of argument are arguing for a holier than thou point of view that is completely disconnected from reality. Fact of the matter is, it's special pleading and pure ignorance that forms this argument. Neither of which is good justification to make such an uninformed and pompous claim.

I am not denying that the ending is horrible, I even think it would be nice if it were changed. I think if I were to really think about it at the end of the day no one can force Bioware to change it, if the ending to Mass Effect is an ending that they truly stand behind, despite the hugely negative feedback then they should stick with it. I think it is ok to ask that they change it, but ultimately it is Bioware's decision.

Also in future they might want to stear clear of Peter Molyneux, I don't know if they've met but from the pre Mass Effect 3 marketing I've seen and from the ending they have clearly picked up some of his bad habits.
The major difference I find between Molyneux and Bioware is that you can actually see where Peter was coming from. He exaggerated some details, most certainly. But much of the time the hype that was created (Such as Fable 1) was due to ignoring many of his later statements about what was actually going to be in the game in favor of much earlier statements about what he wanted to place in the game.

The other thing is that I have never once gotten the distinct impression that Peter alterred his final vision for profit or left his work unfinished. From a gameplay standpoint, he's produced some rather awful elements. Yet you can always see how these decisions play into a larger vision of a finalized product (The sanctuary in Fable 3... such a bad idea on so many levels).

Truth is, I would call Peter an artist, and almost every single game he has produced art. They are a complete vision that he rigorously defends with substantial arguments. His games are very bad, but he has always produced a complete vision of what he wanted. More importantly he has always been very clear about the gameplay decision he had made in the games, for better or worse.

This is very different than Bioware. Bioware made extremely explicit statements about the end content of their product, in many instances only days before release. Not only were their statements extremely exaggerated, but some of them were out-right falsehoods. This is utterly without compare to Peter's work. Peter exaggerates things, but he never really tells outright falsehoods about content. He may exaggerate the effect of the details, but he has not to my knowledge ever stated that a certain element was integral and included within his products, only for said element to have practically no existence in the final product.

Truth of the matter is, Bioware took the "hype" thing a tad to far. They gave completely misleading statements that could not be backed up by the actual content of ME3, provided false information as to the actual content (In certain cases stating the exact opposite of what actually occurred within the game itself), and stated full lies about how they were going to approach the ending. This much is not up for debate, as all one needs to do is look at their statements and how excessively specific they were about certain content. It is rather clear that this goes beyond mere hype such as is the case with Peter (Who for all his flaws actually based his statements on actual content). They deliberately mislead their playerbase in what appears to be a hope that nobody would notice, or at the least care.

So really, I have respect for Peter. He has a clear vision, that he rigorously defends. I disagree with many of his decisions and think that he has a bit of a high-head, but I respect him as he never really completely mislead his costumers through stating complete falsities. I do not, however, have much respect for Bioware as their practices transcend mere hype and exaggeration. They have taken advantage of their core fans and the trust that the fans placed within the company. Something I find to be rather unprecedented in the community.
 

370999

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MiloP said:
Extra Credits win the internet again, The Escapist were crazy to let them go.

So...can we all agree that they were right and stop arguing about it now? We're all gonna have forgotten this in a few months regardless of what BioWare do, and I would love to make the forgetting process happen sooner rather than later.
Perhaps not posting in Mass Effect ending threads would be a step in the right direction?
 

MiloP

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370999 said:
MiloP said:
Extra Credits win the internet again, The Escapist were crazy to let them go.

So...can we all agree that they were right and stop arguing about it now? We're all gonna have forgotten this in a few months regardless of what BioWare do, and I would love to make the forgetting process happen sooner rather than later.
Perhaps not posting in Mass Effect ending threads would be a step in the right direction?
I doubt one person keeping quiet would stop my favourite forums from being clogged with ME3 threads discussing the same issues again and again and again.

And even past that, I do quite like the debate. I just hate the flamewars. And apparently you can't really have one without the other on this topic.
 

Juventus

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games cannot be art for the simple fact that there is day one patches (and patches in general).


let's take ME3 for example, which also had a day one patch. If we are supposed to believe that it is art, then there would be no reasons to release a patch to fix what ever the fuck the patch fixed. Bioware would have simply had to stand behind the original product as "art"
 

Forgetitnow344

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I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.
FUCK your artistic choice. Is that fair?
 

Smeggs

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By the end of this game, after that brutally intense final push, we are desperate to know the answer: "Did we make it? Have we saved everyone? Are my companions ok?"

None of the endings to this game provide a conclusive answer to that. In its last five minutes, Mass Effect shifts the focus to bigger questions with ambiguous results, and the switch happens right at the very peak of your investment in the fate of your squad, leaving us filled to bursting with dramatic tension. And without any relief for that tension, it quickly turns to frustration.
That more or less hits the nail on the head.

Again, if Bioware had just provided another minute or so at the ending just showing a cinematic of the races that we'd helped for the slightest bit of closure, then the shitstorm over the ending probably would have been very small.
 

Acier

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DrVornoff said:
Hammeroj said:
Basically, the crux of the argument seems to be that art is ruined, destroyed or otherwise rendered worthless the moment people other than the creators of said art get involved. And a whole lot of people other than the creators got involved on a whole lot deeper level before the game ever got released. Those people are the "higher-ups", and all they care about is the money. Which is another thing that destroys the argument. People are literally putting more trust into the hands of mindless corporate drones instead of people who care about whatever the point of discussion may be.
And you got all of that out of, "The ending was unsatisfying." I guess I'm not speaking the same English that everyone else is, because that is a strange leap of logic to go to based on that one sentence.

But here's the thing, the crux of my argument is that the ending was bad, but what to do with it should be Bioware's decision, not yours. They should have the right to stand by their decisions or decide if your argument bears enough merit to warrant a change to whatever degree. And you can give me as many anti-corporate talking points as you want, it doesn't change the fact that you are still talking about people.
+
"Wait you agree the ending is bad? Then...why are we having this conversation? If the ending is bad then what is wrong with Bioware fixing it? You agree that it breaks down the narrative cohesion, is nonsensical and disregards what the rest of the series has been building up to? So...what is wrong with it being changed? Cause it violates some ill-defined artistic integrity?"

I think this train of logic just shows how absurdly black and white this has gotten in a lot of people's minds, and how this argument is just growing stagnant because people bunker up in their opinions.
Why does the internet suck so much when it comes to intelligent discourse? ;~;
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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I would agree with the artistic integrity stance if the ending was worthy of the title but it isn't

It's like arguing whether to paint over a crappy piece of graffiti in a pretty public park.

The ending was clearly rushed with parts cut out (which is a fact since there is unused dialogue in existence) and has serious quality issues compared to the rest of the game. I think the fans are right to complain.

It's a quality issue not an artistic one.
 

TheNaut131

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...so anyone else think we should just erase the word "art" and all its other forms from existence?

I think it would solve a lot of issues.
 

ABLb0y

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Come on, there were worse things in that abomination than the ending. Like the bloody turret sections, for example.
 

poiuppx

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Coming in not from a Mass Effect fan standpoint, but instead from a massive Fallout fan POV, I really have to say, the multitude of people bringing up Broken Steel really don't seem to get how far off the two situations really are. Massive spoilers inbound, but there's really no other way to discuss the two reasonably.

Let's sum up; Bethesda created a massive open sandbox game with a central theme; sacrifice. It's a running theme through the whole of the central storyline. What are you willing to give up to achieve an end, to save lives, or to change the world? The Lone Wanderer's mother died giving birth to him/her. The father sacrificed himself to protect his life's work. If confronted rationally with how dangerous and destructive their plans are, both President Eden and The Overseer surrender their dreams wholesale, their negative effects in the latter case negated by rational choice and in the former upheld by a man who seeks his own ends. Even in the simulation, the 'correct' path from the game's karma standpoint is to kill and free the eternal prisoners, leaving the instigator alone eternally. And in the end, upholding this theme, the Lone Wanderer is expected to sacrifice himself, or conversely allow Lyons to sacrifice herself, to save the Capitol Wasteland.

The problem being, whether you looked at the story and enjoyed it, or hated it, following through on the theme had the unfortunate side effect of ending the actual GAME part of the game. Once you make your sacrifice... well, that's that. Game over. You're radioactive worm food. Cue Ron's narration and a few still shots relating to your actions. From the perspective of someone who enjoyed the story arc, I understood it. From the perspective of a player, I was pissed. It felt like it betrayed the very idea of having this massive world to explore that I didn't get to, well, keep exploring it.

Bethesda themselves realized they'd kind of shot themselves in the foot, and responded in a way that prevented the arc from being undone; the sacrifice is made, but the player survives. But rather than just fix it, they added new missions, new subquests, new weapons and enemies, new locations... simply put, they made a full and worthy expansion. Fans were happy to pay up, because it wasn't just a fix, it was an expanded game experience, and paved the way for future expansions and a widening of the storyline. To this day, I can still go back to Fallout 3 and have a good time, partly because they fixed what I felt was the one big glaring flaw... well, that and not getting to aim for the eyes or the junk like in the first two games, but I digress.

However, with Mass Effect 3... you have a very different problem. Let's put aside the artistic arguement for a moment here and consider the ending(s) on display. Yes, they violate the arc up to that point. Yes, they defy the lore. And yes, they're not very... well, satisfying. And yes, they're in direct defiance of what the game was sold on, the idea all your choices would matter in the end and would impact the endings, of which it was claimed there were far more endings then the game reall shipped with. On the surface, it's F3/Broken Steel all over again.

The issue, however, is that it's not. The Fallout 3 problem was with the GAMEPLAY. I can't emphasize that enough. Fallout 3 ended the game when you put in the code and fell over, credits roll, done. Fans pissed, Bethesda's not overly satisfied either, so out comes Broken Steel to change that while also adding a lot more to the game itself.

Mass Effect 3, however, finds its problem in the story, and that way lies madness. The game itself, as shipped, has a damn bad ending by most accounts... most being the key word here. Some folks liked the ending. Some didn't care and were more interested in the road to get there. Some folks couldn't give a toss about the story and are in it for the gameplay. As with F3, the dislike isn't universal. But with F3, the fix more or less made everyone happy; if you liked the original ending, then you didn't have to get Broken Steel. Your Wanderer falls over dead, game over. Hell, even buying it didn't revoke the fact that you STILL had to make a choice, STILL had to have someone put in the code, and even still got the effective ending cinematics et al.

ME3, on the other hand... well, look at all the camps we have. The ones who want the option to just fight it out, damn what the Deus Ex Machina offers as choices. The ones who want the option to point out their own Perfect Paragon-y actions as proof it's full of shit and the three choices are all flawed and based on faulty assumptions. The ones who want it all to be indoctrination. The ones who want to keep their existing endings, either because they liked them or because they feel the artistic integrity is compromised otherwise. The ones who don't care about that part, but demand an epilogue that explains what happens next. And, undoubtedly, a fair few more I've skipped.

What all of these ultimately have in common is that they are purely story-based. Few are asking to fight the Catalyst as some special boss, or use some alternative method that involves dog-fighting the Reapers down to save the day like Master Chief with variable gender and sexuality. They want the STORY to be fixed, because THAT is where it fell apart for them.

The question then ultimately becomes very murky, even from a purely mercantile capitalistic perspective; if Bioware/EA released the new ending(s) for free, then that's a lot of cash and resources out of pocket that aren't likely to come back. If they make it actual paid DLC... then they're utterly boned, because players could easily just watch it on YouTube instead and ultimately miss out on nothing. There is no gameplay, no additional game part of the game, to be harvested here. And without that, the legitimate incentives start to peel away.

Furthermore, story is a tricky beast. Especially story set in such a way that the player, ultimately, shapes the story within a very extensive framework. The survival or death of countless characters, even whole species, is in play. Yes, it was a cop-out to not ship with the endings promised, even verging on false advertising. But asking for a do-over now really is setting yourself up for disappointment on all fronts.

Where would the do-over begin, if one were not to simply tack on an epilogue? Would you change everything in the final ten minutes? If you did, you'd piss off the people who wanted the ending(s) to remain. Would you add new unique options for the player to select, new routes to take dependant on certain actions throughout the trillogy? Well, what if someone didn't take those new routes? How many routes are on offer here? How many choices, and which ones, should add up to those new choices? Should it be purely dependant on Paragon or Renegade? If so, wouldn't that in and of itself still not be fufilling, given it ignores the REASON for the label in favor of label-alone? And again, ultimately, if there is no additional gameplay, how many people are actually going to pay to see it as opposed to just watching videos of it online?

Again, this is just one poorly-informed soul's view on the matter. Take it, leave it, whatever you will. I just wanted to poke my head in and clarify, in my opinion, how comparing this situation to Broken Steel is a faulty comparison at best.
 

GloatingSwine

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Tanakh said:
Well, to be fari Kubrick's movies seem to be alwasy shitty as adaptations of the source material. 2001 was a great film, but if you read the book start to wonder if Kubrick ever did.
Probably not, given that Clarke hadn't even finished writing it when the film came out ;)

The book and film of 2001 were written at the same time, the film came out first.
 

GloatingSwine

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Smiley Face said:
I'll believe the ending was an artistic choice rather than a blunder as soon as they explain what they were aiming for artistically, and I can judge whether it was a) an artistic choice, 2) a good artistic choice, and 3) whether they succeeded in achieving that vision.
If they have to explain what their artistic vision was, they didn't succeed in achieving it.

In art as in politics: If you're explaining, you're losing.
 

Atmos Duality

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GloatingSwine said:
If they have to explain what their artistic vision was, they didn't succeed in achieving it.

In art as in politics: If you're explaining, you're losing.
Small wonder nothing gets done via politics.
Everybody wants to talk and get their way, but never talk about 'WHY'.
 

Jesse Billingsley

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Mimsofthedawg said:
Jesse Billingsley said:
http://extra-credits.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2008

Nothing much to say except that Extra Credits decided to respond to this issue, and they have some pretty good views.
While I think it would be stupid if they changed the ending (I don't care about "artistic integrity", the damage was done, the series ruined - you can't fix it), I really, REALLY hate people who in any way defend it.

It's especially ridiculous because it's almost ALWAYS followed by a "well, yes it could have been done better, but this is what they chose! it shows growth in the industry! Why are people so angry!?"

As the guy who does Experienced Points has shown, this ending is not a mature ending in anyway. It broke with consistent Lore, broke with the themes and ideas presented in the Mass Effect lore, this was a literary cope out - Bioware essentially said, "we don't want to take the hard route and account for the 1,000 different choices players made, so we're just gonna end it all." It was the equivalent of dropping an atomic bomb on everything they had worked for. It's like reading Lord of the Rings right up until the part where Frodo drops the ring into Mt. Doom and then going into your backyard and burning the book, claiming it somehow was a good ending.

It just wasn't good. Look at it artistically, look at thematically, look at it any which way you want to and you have to admit, it's not good. The guys from Extra Credits admitted they never played the damn thing - how can they truly understand the core issue here? They can't. It's akin to writing off Lord of the Rings as "generic" fantasy and never reading it because you heard it has elves and goblins and orcs in it - even though LOTR was one of the first series to truly propel "generic" fantasy into the foreground in the first place! No. Looking at it from the most objective, unopinionated point of view, where your ideas are formulated by centuries of artistic and literary theory, the ending of Mass Effect was down right abysmal. Stop making excuses for it. Stop defending it. Just let the damn thing die!
The Guy writing the post played it, so I think that means he can say whatever he wants about the endings.
 

Vault Citizen

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thememan said:
Which is a whole load of crock, as it is not an unprecedented practice in either the literary or film medias to alter a product after a release to appeal to public demand. In fact some of the greatest works of literature and film have done just that. People taking this route of argument are arguing for a holier than thou point of view that is completely disconnected from reality. Fact of the matter is, it's special pleading and pure ignorance that forms this argument. Neither of which is good justification to make such an uninformed and pompous claim.
I?m confused, by uninformed and pompous claim do you mean the people that claim Bioware shouldn?t change the ending or what I said?
I didn?t realise that literary works had been altered post released to suit fan demand (besides retcons in comic books) so I take back what I said about the difficulty in changing the ending of a movie or book.