While I respect EC's opinion, one cannot deny the fact that Bioware promised "16 different endings". The fact that we essentially received 3 variation on the same one is at the core of why people are upset.
Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues
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Hammartroll said:
First off, the fundamental problem with this arguement is that the term "art" is so vague that none of what we're talking about can be considered fact, but what I know is fact is basic economic rules.DrVornoff said:
If I decide to shit in my hands and make a sculpture out of it and then decide to show it off at an art gallery then fine, some people may consider it art, some people may think it's just a piece of shit. And I think that's a debate totally worth having, since what we consider to be art is mostly subjective.
BUT!!!
When I try peddle my shit statue and no one wants to buy it, I HAVE NO RIGHT to go calling people narrow minded for not wanting to buy something that I think is a work of art. When I put my art on the market it no longer matters what I think of it, all that matters is if people like it enough and in the free market THE PEOPLE ARE NEVER WRONG.
Bioware is looking to sell a product, that's their whole purpose. Sure it's good to have an artistic quality to your product, they usually sell better when they do, but only if it's an artistic quality that people are willing to accept, otherwise it won't sell. It baffles me how some people can be so arrogant as to think the Bioware developers should be scolding it's consumers when it's the cosumers who are the ones who allows Bioware to exist.
IT'S OUR MONEY AND WE WILL PAY FOR WHAT WE WANT. it's Bioware's job to provide that, and the excuse that a lame ass product they put out should still be bought and infact admired because they deemed it a work of art is just that, a sorry excuse.
And I havn't played Mass Effect 3 so I can't say how bad it was, but the economics concept still applies, the consumers are obviously unhappy with this product.
Just because something is art doesn't mean it can't be changed or judged. Even the greatest artists changed their art to satisfy the person paying for it, but nobody says those are suddenly not art because they have no integrity. For an example, I think someone mentioned the pope demanding several changes to the Sistene Chapel Cieling. I also really doubt that leanardo Davinci never changed any of his works to suit the person paying. Do I think the ME3 ending is bad? Yes. Do I think it should be changed to something that isn't bad? Yes. Will I demand it be changed? Okay that's where I stop, I'm not going that far, admittedly. If they really don't want to change it that's there decision and I will respect it, but I will never believe that changing something destroys its value as art. It sometimes can, but I don't think this is one of those intances.Sutter Cane said:
I'll believe the ending was an artistic choice rather than a blunder as soon as they explain what they were aiming for artistically, and I can judge whether it was a) an artistic choice, 2) a good artistic choice, and 3) whether they succeeded in achieving that vision.Sutter Cane said:
Overall, this article makes a lot of good points. I wholeheartedly agree that if there's one thing this ending does, it's that it drives home how excellent the rest of the game and series were, that it elicits this much investment (and, as some would argue, the glaring shift from that quality the ending represents).
Here's the question I have about artistic integrity: Assuming the finished project does NOT sufficiently execute the artistic vision, what is better - a) to leave the ending unchanged, or b) change it in such a way where the quality is dramatically improved and it executes the original artistic vision? Would choosing the latter option compromise artistic integrity?
In other words, IF BioWare never intended this, and IF they feel that they themselves don't like the ending, would it artistically improper for them to produce an 'ending supplement'? (Imagine, for this, that fan reaction doesn't enter in to the question - I agree, bowing to popular outrage just because it is popular outrage is wrong, but assuming that wasn't a factor.)
Ok, then they aren't artists. They're making something with the intent on selling it, that's a product not art.DrVornoff said:
As I said in another thread, if a meal I order comes with the wrong sauce, I have a right to complain and get it changed, because that chef (who some believe to be an artform) messed up what he said he was going to make. He doesn't turn around and go "NO YOU CANNOT, IT IS ART, YOU EAT IT AS IT IS" that's just ridiculous.
*nods*survivor686 said:
I love the fact, though, that essentially everyone in the gaming industry defends Bioware by every means that's available to them without addressing the core issues that the players/fans have brought forth.
The sad thing about all of this is that I remember playing Star Ocean 2 and that had...what...86 or 87 different endings? Hell, even Chrono Trigger pulled the multiple endings off better and it had only....ehhhh 10ish?
I think it's safe to say, given all the reactions from the different gaming sites and sources, that no one in the industry is willing to confront the issues that were raised; either for their own sake or for the industry's. Make no mistake about it, I agree with the fans that they were cheated in what they were given in the game story-wise, but I also agree with Bioware's decision on what they put forth in the game. It's just that decision by Bioware results in me using my money in a different manner than before ME3 came out. I'm just glad I have a brother that I can borrow games from!
But see most of the people who say they want a "new ending" or want it changed would be happy with an indoctrination theory style ending. Keep the old ending as a basis to build from. And that has happened before with Sherlock Holmes and countless character resurrections from other series.Berenzen said:
And I'm guessing they didn't pay £40 for one movie ticket either. I don't care whether it gets redone or not, frankly I hope not, because it would be a disappoint for bioware to cave like that. I'm just saying that people do have a right to complain about it, and I'm fed up of that argument being beaten down by it being considered "art".DrVornoff said:
There's definitely a whole lot we don't know about what went down at Bioware, it's pretty safe to assume they didn't try to screw up this bad. But the thing is, some of those developer promises are from this year, they where made after the game was already complete and the reps from Bioware knew what they created wouldn't deliver on both the customer's expectations and their own claims. That's where the ordeal goes from unfortunate to suspicious, and it's generated quite a bit of mistrust.DrVornoff said:
And while expansion is all well and good, the problem me and a lot of other people have with the ending is how it completely obliterates any possibility of closure. Everything you worked to achieve is undone in an instant and there really isn't much you can explain beyond that.
True enough, but things aren't nearly as cut-and-dry as that right now.DrVornoff said:
Also, would you be surprised to learn there's an episode of "My Little Pony" that deals with that exact issue? Don't ask me how I know that.
Basically the point is that Mass Effect 1-3 have choices have actual consequence which all don't impact the ending at all in how the story ends. Player choice was offered across all 3 games and then taken away at the last minute... and all you said was "artistic integrety"?
"We are the players and this is how we tell our story" is what Mass Effect has given us and I'll be very damn sad if I couldn't just attempt to board a reaper or use the Catalyst to lure them away and then use it as a bomb (even if it is stupid) opposed to the forced "choice" of blowing up the entire galaxy with the Mass Relays.
"We are the players and this is how we tell our story" is what Mass Effect has given us and I'll be very damn sad if I couldn't just attempt to board a reaper or use the Catalyst to lure them away and then use it as a bomb (even if it is stupid) opposed to the forced "choice" of blowing up the entire galaxy with the Mass Relays.
How sure are you that noone filed a complaint with the FTC? Hell, if the person who filed a complaint with the FTC towards ME3 didn't make a thread about it on the BSN, you wouldn't have even known. The FTC doesn't publicly list what grievances have been brought against companies.DrVornoff said:
Why? Why do you have a problem with them defending Bioware making a choice as a group of artists to realize their artistic vision? I'm sorry, but that's idiotic. You're attacking the idea of art because....it's art and therefore you think it's pretentious? Pro tip buddy, in a work of art every single element is a diliberate artistic choice. They chose the ending to be a certain way, and they have the right as a team of artists to make that choice in their work of art. Once you leave art aside and cave into the "der her i didnt lik it chnge it cuz im a winey fanboi" bullshit it's not art anymore. It's the third Transformers movie.SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
[Not in response to above comment] I haven't played Mass Effect 3 yet so I have no idea what the ending is, but seriously folks. It's an ending. They made an artistic choice. You didn't like it. Deal with it.
Same here...their just repeating what so many others have brought up. I've lost respect for so many people these past few weeks it's really disheartening. It's not that they don't agree it's that they role out the same tired defenses.SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Captcha: The all-new Chevy Sonic, fuck that. *reloads* The All-new Chevy Sonic...well fuck you too then.
Quite simply, it doesn't. It's just that it's getting the wrong kind of critisism and people are badly over reacting. You can say "I didn't like that ending." Hell, you're probably well within your rights to call it a bad ending if you have good reason (I wouldn't know, I haven't played it). I take grievance with the people who seem to take an ending they dislike personally, like the artist went out of their way to flip them off with the ending.Fawxy said:
The thing about an ending is that the artist is trying to say something with the ending. Every part of a work of art is, for better or worse, deliberate. It was a concious choice by the artist. You can't demand that an artist change their vision or say that their interpretation of their own work is wrong. And you certainly can't whine and ***** about how the artist "owes" you something, because they don't owe you shit. You chose to pay the amount of money you paid. You chose to invest the time you did. The artist doesn't owe you anything for choices that you made yourself. Whine and ***** about how you didn't like it all you please, just don't act like an entitled fuckwit.
Games as art? They can be I suppose. It's going to depend on a game by game basis. I would say Journey looks very artsy and supposedly moves the player to feel some emotion. Sounds like art to me. I haven't played ME3 but from what I have seen, it doesn't look like art to me.
I don't want to sound like a condescending dick, but I just don't understand why the gaming community was mostly willing to sit back and let EA pull the day 1 DLC fraud and then turn around and jump down Bioware's throat over a game ending? People fail sometimes. Bioware failed in delivering a stellar ending to ME3. Sometimes it's good to wait to buy a game to avoid being blindsided by such things.
That day 1 DLC, however, was malicious and unethical. It may have been a minor infraction but the significance was huge and unfortunately has been swept under the rug with all this ending talk. Unless Bioware invented time travel, that DLC is content removed from your game and sold on the side. They short changed you and then had the audacity to sell it back to you are a jacked up price.
The line has been crossed and tone has been set. This practice will continue and grow in scale. The fire has been started. Are we going to ignore it until our house burns down or are we going to snuff it out now?
I don't want to sound like a condescending dick, but I just don't understand why the gaming community was mostly willing to sit back and let EA pull the day 1 DLC fraud and then turn around and jump down Bioware's throat over a game ending? People fail sometimes. Bioware failed in delivering a stellar ending to ME3. Sometimes it's good to wait to buy a game to avoid being blindsided by such things.
That day 1 DLC, however, was malicious and unethical. It may have been a minor infraction but the significance was huge and unfortunately has been swept under the rug with all this ending talk. Unless Bioware invented time travel, that DLC is content removed from your game and sold on the side. They short changed you and then had the audacity to sell it back to you are a jacked up price.
The line has been crossed and tone has been set. This practice will continue and grow in scale. The fire has been started. Are we going to ignore it until our house burns down or are we going to snuff it out now?
"they made an artistic choice."
All available evidence suggests they did not, two people slapped something together in the final moments. The ending was planned out on scrap paper by one guy. If that guy was the original lead and this vaguely resembled what they had planned then that is something more than nothing. But right now, there doesn't seem to be any vision of any kind.
Furthermore I do not understand why it being an "artistic choice" means they should ignore fans. I take it Fallout 3 isn't art, the Alex Rider book series isn't and so on. Or are these things are and being art and possessing some level of artistic vision doesn't mean they should ignore what fans want. Bioware has always been about trying to give fans what they want, doing so correctly or not they are trying. For them not to listen would be something new.
Remember the Mako? An entire gameplay aspect, a full third of the games variety was removed because people did not like it. Or have we all agreed that gameplay isn't the product of any artistic vision?
People are going overboard with their demands that Bioware fix the utterly broken ending, that is clearly true. But does that mean that Bioware should act differently and not listen?
People have every right to say "You promised us X, Y and Z and we got none of that. The ending is on every level broken. You should correct this mistake". Bioware listening to people and correcting their mistake isn't bad or new, not to art, not to games, not even to Bioware.
EDIT: Because I like this video and feel and deserves more views, and it is on topic.
All available evidence suggests they did not, two people slapped something together in the final moments. The ending was planned out on scrap paper by one guy. If that guy was the original lead and this vaguely resembled what they had planned then that is something more than nothing. But right now, there doesn't seem to be any vision of any kind.
Furthermore I do not understand why it being an "artistic choice" means they should ignore fans. I take it Fallout 3 isn't art, the Alex Rider book series isn't and so on. Or are these things are and being art and possessing some level of artistic vision doesn't mean they should ignore what fans want. Bioware has always been about trying to give fans what they want, doing so correctly or not they are trying. For them not to listen would be something new.
Remember the Mako? An entire gameplay aspect, a full third of the games variety was removed because people did not like it. Or have we all agreed that gameplay isn't the product of any artistic vision?
People are going overboard with their demands that Bioware fix the utterly broken ending, that is clearly true. But does that mean that Bioware should act differently and not listen?
People have every right to say "You promised us X, Y and Z and we got none of that. The ending is on every level broken. You should correct this mistake". Bioware listening to people and correcting their mistake isn't bad or new, not to art, not to games, not even to Bioware.
EDIT: Because I like this video and feel and deserves more views, and it is on topic.
What makes ME not Art, when Bioware listens to the fans?
Books are generally considered Art, right?
So in Germany there's a series of books called "The Dwarfs".
The Author wrote 3 books and said that this series was finished after the third book.
This caused an outcry among fans, because the third book ended on multiple Huge cliffhangers.
So finally the author caved in and Wrote an ENTIRE 1000 PAGES BOOK, to wrap everything up and to give a clear ending.
Are Books less Art, of course not.
So what's your problem.
Books are generally considered Art, right?
So in Germany there's a series of books called "The Dwarfs".
The Author wrote 3 books and said that this series was finished after the third book.
This caused an outcry among fans, because the third book ended on multiple Huge cliffhangers.
So finally the author caved in and Wrote an ENTIRE 1000 PAGES BOOK, to wrap everything up and to give a clear ending.
Are Books less Art, of course not.
So what's your problem.
I'm just being honest.370999 said:
Therein lies part of the issue: BioWare isn't coming right out and saying "Yeah, we fucked up. Sorry." Instead, they're saying everything else and so you have threads like this.370999 said:
I'm sure you already know this, but there's a fine difference between "promising closure" and openly admitting that good idea you had on paper didn't translate very well in application. From my own experience, people will have far more respect for you in the latter case than the former.
The news stories - hell, even some posts in this very thread - I've read definitely say otherwise. I'll kill it here since I feel we both have said too much on the subject already.370999 said: