Extra Credits talks about gender sterotypes in game mechanics.

[deathbydeath]

Oh look, another reason not to watch those guys. It's nice to remind myself of why I stopped caring about them years ago, but I figure if I ever need "No shit, Sherlock"-caliber commentary they're worth a peek.

I notice someone else (youtube comments) mentioning that portal wasn't a FPS and I am thinking why isn't it? I mean it's based around solving puzzles, but a good FPS is a puzzle too. (Often a bloody puzzle filled with death, but then again so is portal. )

The whole point of the episode was to look at typical genres at different angles and not get caught up in assumptions of what they should be, in order to get out of that stereotyping mindset. Portal was designed with the Source engine--an engine which up until then had primarily been made to create shooters. At times you use portals to redirect projectiles or destroy enemies. You literally shoot the portal in the same way you'd shoot a gun in Half-Life.

A) Only on a technical level. At higher levels it more closely resembles how shooting works in Tribes or the TF2 Soldier[/nitpick]

B) Portal is only an FPS in the semantic, literal sense. Once you start to compare it to other shooters the comparison breaks down into meaninglessness. The general pacing and approach to problem-solving in Doom, FEAR, and Call o' Dooty hardly resembles that of Portal, aside from surface elements. I play FPS' because I want dynamic challenges that require quick tactical thinking and improvisation. Portal can't provide that.

 

[kris40k]

I think that the bigger problem with trying to define Portal is that there are two parts to the FPS meaning. First Person (as in perspective) and Shooter (the general gameplay elements being based around gunplay). Back during the Wolfenstein/Doom/Quake days, use of FP was generally always in a shooter, but the use of first person perspective has been successfully used in many games since then that do not use gunplay as their primary game mechanic.

Thief is a First Person Sneaker (FPSn)
Mirror's Edge is a First Person Runner (FPRr)
TES: Skyrim is a First Person Shouter (I mean RPG) (FP RPG)

While I do think that Portal falls more in to a First Person Puzzler category, it is going to get very unweildly if we start having to keep mental track of 100 more acronyms just to describe the first person genre. I'm talking US Military stupid levels of acronyms. I am more comfortable calling it a FPS and being done with it.

 

[Worgen]

That's no member of the AK family, artist, you wacky whale penis!

I used to be very surprised when girls told me they enjoyed Halo. I'd assumed they just didn't enjoy games like that because it didn't click with their minds in the way that you'd find yourself connecting with a certain book or film genre. How silly, it almost made me rather exclusionary toward them and we had so much more in common than I'd thought.

Girls tend to have a very weird place in society. They are expected to stop playing with toys pretty early and then they are seen as the killer of fun for the rest of the time. They are expected to be mothers and be there to stop the guys from having a good time.

Look at Bronies, they are seen as weird not because they like something for children, if that was the case then transformers, starwars and Lego's wouldn't be seen as cool. Bronies are seen as weird because they like something for girls, and society knows that girls don't like good things.

 

[Erttheking]

Look at Bronies, they are seen as weird not because they like something for children, if that was the case then transformers, starwars and Lego's wouldn't be seen as cool. Bronies are seen as weird because they like something for girls, and society knows that girls don't like good things.

And the weird (and kind of creepy) thing is that they try and say it obviously isn't for girls. I look up youtube clips of the final battle between Twilight and the Big Bad of season 4 and it's pretty awesome. Below are people commenting "and people say this show is for little girls."

I guess little girls can't like cool things?

 

[Lilani]

]A) Only on a technical level. At higher levels it more closely resembles how shooting works in Tribes or the TF2 Soldier[/nitpick]

B) Portal is only an FPS in the semantic, literal sense. Once you start to compare it to other shooters the comparison breaks down into meaninglessness. The general pacing and approach to problem-solving in Doom, FEAR, and Call o' Dooty hardly resembles that of Portal, aside from surface elements. I play FPS' because I want dynamic challenges that require quick tactical thinking and improvisation. Portal can't provide that.

What's the problem with approaching a genre or gameplay style in a different way from what is typical? Yes it's extremely semantic and literal, but if they had not thought to apply the Source engine in such a radically different matter, then we would not have gotten Portal.

Why is everybody so keen on drawing such clear lines as to what is and isn't in a genre? If you don't like Portal then that's fine, but why is it so important to you that Portal not be called an FPS? I like platformers like Mario, Spyro, and Sonic, but I don't like Megaman because it's just a bit too unforgiving. But I still consider them all platformers. I enjoyed Plants VS Zombies because it was a simple and two-dimensional tower defense game, but I didn't enjoy Sanctum because 3 dimensions was a bit too hectic for me. TF2 and CoD are two very different kinds of FPS's, but both are certainly FPS's.

I've been on a Markiplier binge on YouTube lately, and he's played some Indie games which take some pretty unusual takes on typical genres such as FPS, RPG, or even text adventures. One RPG he played basically incorporated dying into the mechanics of the game--as you touched things in the room and found yourself dying in interesting ways, the world broke down more and the mystery was slowly revealed until you reached the end. And how do you even categorize something like Octodad or Surgeon Simulator, which are basically games dedicated to circumventing bad control schemes? And in a world where "sandbox game" has come to mean either GTA or Minecraft, where does Goat Simulator fit in?

I really don't understand this need to pidgeonhole games so much, or the offense which is taken when somebody turns their head sideways and points out "You know, when you think about it, Portal is really just a different kind of FPS." Hell Portal 2 itself pointed that out when Wheatley says to you "It's a gun, that shoots holes. Not bullet holes...oh you'll see."

Remember, FPS stands for "first person shooter." There is no other constraint on what is being shot or with what. Just because something breaks the mold and does something different with the formula doesn't mean it qualifies. That's like saying "I'm used to mashed potatoes where the potatoes are skinned before they're mashed. These mashed potatoes with skins are TOTALLY NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL because they have skins and there are some bits of potatoes not fully mashed up." But "mashed potatoes" neither means with skin nor without, and nor does it designate how mashed they are. They are just...mashed.

 

[Worgen]

Look at Bronies, they are seen as weird not because they like something for children, if that was the case then transformers, starwars and Lego's wouldn't be seen as cool. Bronies are seen as weird because they like something for girls, and society knows that girls don't like good things.

And the weird (and kind of creepy) thing is that they try and say it obviously isn't for girls. I look up youtube clips of the final battle between Twilight and the Big Bad of season 4 and it's pretty awesome. Below are people commenting "and people say this show is for little girls."

I guess little girls can't like cool things?

Thats pretty much what society thinks. Being called girly is one of the big insults for things. Things girls enjoy or are supposed are treated very harshly be the majority of society, or at the very least, guys.

 

[BarkBarker]

There are no gender stereotypes, only gender leans. Can anyone play a shooter? Yes. Do you think the appeal of a shooter appeals to a more masculine mind? Well yes. I don't know who is saying these things to the point they say they hear it from so many people, must be some thick headed morons in suits or something.

 

[sufjan]

This channel is so annoying, but I can't put my finger on why.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

So I am addressing the people who are claiming portal is not an FPS, it is. The arguments being brought up here, are centered in theme, rather then mechanics. FPS describes mechanics, not theme. The pure mechanics of the game, are as an FPS Puzzle Platformer. Aspects of the game that people may perceive as being missing from an FPS such as headshots, limited health, motion sensing radar, and even combat do not define an FPS they are merely theming elements brought in to the wargame school of video games. By arguing that portal is not an FPS, you are demonstrating a confusion between theming and mechanics.

The simple fact is portal is an fps, just because nobody screams "BOOM HEADSHOT" at you online, does not make it otherwise. Remember the brutal machine gun turrets with the soothing friendly voices? how would you describe stepping out of cover for a quick portal blast beneath them? Is this not shooting from the first person?

Now onto the proposed zombie apocalypse hidden object game.... i would be totally disinterested in this game unless it abandoned the traditional still image to look for objects in. If i could walk around a 3d environment and actually search, then you would have my attention.

Onto the nature vs nurture element and how the different sexes develop their bias towards different genres. I have no doubt that nurture plays an important role in this, but i think that is rather clear already, and I am here to make an argument that nature is not totally out of the game in our day and age.

Think about our time as a species when surviving was much much more difficult then it is now. Think about our time as hunters, as gatherers, taking shelter and huddling together as best we can to share the workload of survival. Think about our gender roles as they are traditionally defined, and the very important benefits they had for us in that time period.

I would argue, that over the generations If the men of a specific tribe developed a higher tolerance for stressful situations, and pressure to perform in all things, that tribe would be much more likely to survive and pass on those traits then a tribe that did not develop such affinities. Not to say that those traits are not valuable to the female members of the society as well, but the very survival of the tribe does not depend as heavily on the female members being able to handle the pressure of keeping the tribe alive, so the evolutionary pressure is not as strong on them.

My girlfriend, my mother, AND my grandmother all enjoy hidden object games. From observing them when i try to introduce them to other game types, I believe they do not enjoy the pressure to perform or fail and eventually decide they do not like the game. I have attempted to introduce all of them to platformers like old sonic games, turn based strategy like civilization and heroes of might and magic, shooting games like the original halo and even doom.

On the flip side my closest female friend very much enjoys the same video games that I do, and she frequently plays with myself, her boyfriend (another good friend of mine for years) and another male friend to round out our 4 person playing group. She loves headshots, swords, strategy, violence, and yes even heavily sexual and explicit characters. According to her "the bigger the tits are, the smaller her top should be"

Not everyone is the same, but there are trends.

 

[unbias]

"I hear FPS games are for boys and match 3 games are for girls"

Umm, This right away is wrong. I play with quite a few women who play FPS games(gears of war, teamfortress, left 4 dead, and payday). He probably is talking to the same little click that confirms all his biases.

"action rpg is boy games by the industry" citation needed. Most games like the Tales series have a lot of appeal to women, hell a lot of the action rpg games from japan have broad appeal. And who is to say the others dont as well? Again, citation needed.

"As soon as you get one about non violent conflict" This is him stereotyping women. Great. Beyond that, this is inferring it is bad to cater to a demographic in the 1st place, which on its own is actually sexist. This would be like getting mad at the romance genre in books because it caters to women...Well ya, they enjoy romance novels more, there is no problem here.


"Why did puzzle quest have a large male audience" Who ever said men dont like puzzle games? WTF? Again, citation needed.

"Gender is nurture not nature" Well great, lets talk about Keith K. Schillo's failed experiment. Also, women, you only like what you like because you were told so, same with you boys. Not like the father of the twins committed suicide over the guilt or anything.

"It's a conspiracy of companies forcing demand, not demand pushing companies to supply desires of the sexes!" Predictable, to say the least.

"Violent games will sell better to men then women" Ok, I dont see how this is a bad thing, men enjoy these types of games.


"FPS+men=are NOT for women" instead of FPS designed with men in mind, but women can play it too... He is enforcing the same stereotype he wants to break. Well, actually, the reality is this is a ninja dig at "toxic masculinity". But whatever.

"It locks us in" Left4dead, fallout 3, Evolve, Dayz, Rust, Garry's mod, boarderlands, Portal, Chivalry, Alien Isolation, Depth, Deus Ex, and ect are all examples of chaning things up. We are not locked in at all.

"Girl games" There is nothing wrong with appealing to women, but that doesnt automatically make them girl games, that just means women were the targeted audience. Again, nothing wrong with this and I see no stats that say men do not play them either.

"This set of idea's that mechanics exclusively appeals to the group" This based on you wanting to double down on the stereotype that women dont like violent video games. When women make up over 40% of the people who go watch action movies. Sorry, dont buy the explanation here.

The thing holding back AAA devs isnt genders, it's bloated budget and risk aversion because of this. Fix this, so we can get back to middleware and you will probably, eventually, will get your games you want. That said, nothing is stopping indie devs to do any of this either. Maybe there just isnt as much of a market your extra credits people's gamee idea's? Besides, FPS isnt the only genre and trying to get a specific type of game you want from a specific genre sounds more like complaining because you are not, specifically, being catered to, more then anything.

 

[kris40k]

--snip--

Would you consider a game like Fallout 3 an FPS since it can have first person combat with guns? You shouldn't since that only describes a very small portion of the game's tertiary game mechanics.

Yes, in fact I consider Fallout 3 and New Vegas to be FPS RPGs[footnote]but not a RPG in an FPS, because those explode[/footnote], oddly enough the same category that I consider the The Elder Scrolls series, but not the Borderlands series. There is not enough decision making in the Borderlands series for me to consider it a true RPG, too linear, while FO and TES series are RPGs that play out combat in the first person perspective. Whether its an sword, a fireball, or a rifle doesn't make enough of a difference to me, its an FPS. Mirror's Edge is too, even though that game encourages avoiding gunplay.

Your mileage may vary, but that is why a good chunk of this thread exists, there appears to not be a consensus of what FPS means to the overall community.

 

[kris40k]

But see, that's where you are mistaken. Fallout 3/New Vegas and Oblivion/Skyrim are RPGs with FPS elements since you can switch perspective freely. They simply contain elements from the FPS genre, these game are first and primarily open world RPGs. As for Mirror's Edge, just because it takes place in first person and there's the occasional option of using weapons you can't really consider it an FPS since it is primarily a platformer and such gameplay is entirely optional to the point you can complete the full game without even picking up a single weapon. A game can contain elements of various genres, but to be considered a part of a certain genre such elements need to compose the bulk of the game's mechanics.

The 3rd person perspective of both of the games, while available, is poorly tacked on as an afterthought. I am as quick to dismiss it as the designers were to implement it. Sad too, as I still use 3rd person in Skyrim (got to 'mire that armor) although I regularly find myself hitting 'F' to drop into first person to resolve fights that actually matter. The gameplay is primarily first-person driven combat, which you believe is tertiary, and I disagree. The TES and FO series are driven by a character choice (RPG) in where to go and resolve conflict by murder-hobo'ing some enemies (FPS); this to me, is the bulk of the game's mechanics.

I will however, give Fallout a nod that once you get Grim Reaper's Sprint the game ceases to be a FPS and more of a cinematic slide show.

 

[Muten]

Let the market decide, and do studies on it at different points in history.

While I don't entirely disagree with the idea of letting the market decide, I despise the way it gets thrown around in these types of discussions. The fact is, the marketers are far from blameless when it comes to influencing what the market wants. They also decide what the market gets.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario when the marketers don't support certain types of products because no one buys them, and then no one buys that product because it wasn't created/marketed in the first place.

You are assuming devs wont take risks, off course they will, if the risks pay off they will be the first ones to cash in.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

This channel is so annoying, but I can't put my finger on why.

It's Extra Credits, that's all there is to it.
They bleed annoying.

 

[SKBPinkie]

Portal isn't an FPS.

You wouldn't say Crash Bandicoot and Gears of War are the same thing just because they're played from a third-person perspective. Same goes for Portal and something like Halo. The Shooter part of First Person Shooter is kinda critical to the genre's name.

It's like the morons who go "point-and-click adventures are just like shooters, you simply point, and click, HURRDURR". No, just - no.

 

[CFriis87]

Wait, so the solution to gender stereotyping in mechanics is more gender stereotyping?

Huh.

I...am completely lost. I can't watch the video again right now, what are you talking about?

How they say that gender stereotyping is an issue (which it is), then go on to imply that to make a game's mechanics appeal to the opposite gender they must either make it more non-violent (Portal, Kingdom Hearts) or more violent (Puzzle Quest, James' Zombie idea).

I think that the thing that they were talking about was that we shouldn't be limited. That we shouldn't say "First Person shooters are only for guys and they all need to be violent" and "puzzles are only for women and need to be nice." Kingdom Hearts and Portal managed to appeal to both genders because it mixed and matched ideas and didn't stick to the stereotypes of one genre. I think the point of the episode was that we shouldn't stick to one extreme or the other and try and explore the in-between areas.

Also there's a lot of fighting in Kingdom Hearts.

EDIT: Well there's first person shooting in Portal. There really isn't platforming in Dear Esther

So... Gender stereotyping of themes in games is okay and should be used to eliminate gender stereotyping of genres in games because that's bad?
Just another half-baked, somewhat self-contradictory idea from the Identity Politics Taskforce.

 

[CFriis87]

This channel is so annoying, but I can't put my finger on why.

Identity Politics...
You're welcome.

 

[webkilla]

-Huge Wall 'o' text-

Spot on.
People are making a fuss for nothing. Video Gaming started as a male hobby and it shows in the genres that became popular. In the past few years more women started to play and it is going through the same developments. If people would just let it run its course then we'll probably see a good "female" line-up of games next to the "Male" and all stuff in between.

agreed - both with Therumancer and and Exos.

"Extra Credits is right in a general sense, but only in that the big budget gaming industry tends to stick almost exclusively with what it knows works, causing stagnation, something which has been being complained about for years. Trying to tie gender issues to it seems pretty much ridiculous... as well as the whole basic point of this video with all the complaints about how there were no games being developed FOR women, now that it's obvious that there have been, and for a very long time, having these girl games is suddenly wrong?"

This is so spot on. Its NOT a question of not wanting to make games for women, its a question of money.

Big publishers only want to fund safe bets, so games that are sure to sell get funded.


I have been saying - ever since Sarkeesian's kickstarter - that what these feminist gaming advocates need is NOT to change the rest of the industry, but what they need is their own minecraft.

They need to make a game that sells like hot shit to women, to prove to the bigger developers that women is a viable audience to sell to.

What are revolution60's sales figures again? Gone Home's sales figures? Depression Quest? (oh wait, that was given away for free)


The idea that FPS mechanics are somehow inherently only for male gamers... its the good old causation vs correlation fallacy.

Sure, a lot of first person view games might be made and sold primarily to a male demographic - but EC themselves say that Portal 1 and 2 were popular with women, and they're with a first person view. Gone Home uses a first person view.

And with that, the argument that first person games are inherently masculine falls to pieces.

Come on EC, I know you can do better. Stop with the identity/gender-politic bullshit. Their whole video is riddled with assumptions that have no citations or proof, beyond them simply being the opinion of the EC crew. If they have their heads so far up their own asses that they believe this stuff, then I fear for their ability to function in the game industry as a whole.

 

[Allum_Bokhari]

Their broad points are hard to argue with. Take the mechanics of FPS and stick female-friendly themes like puzzles on top of it, or take the mechanics of puzzle games and add male-friendly themes like adventure and violence onto it. Yay, more thinking outside the box. Yay, more creative new titles.

Where they (somewhat predictably) fall down is explaining how the themes themselves came to appeal to different genders. They acknowledge that FPS mechanics appeal to more women when you replace violence with puzzles (Portal 2), but give a pretty lackluster explanation of why this might be the case. All they have to offer is around a minute of tired old pre-Pinkerian assumptions about the effects of society, culture, etc, with no consideration granted to the newer research.

Of course they could have quite easily made the case for innovative, Portal-style usage of game mechanics without bringing gender into it. But seeing as they did, it would have been nice to see them demonstrate knowledge about where the current debate on group gender preferences actually stands, as opposed to where it stood in, say, 1976.

 

[Silvanus]

Portal isn't an FPS.

You wouldn't say Crash Bandicoot and Gears of War are the same thing just because they're played from a third-person perspective. Same goes for Portal and something like Halo.

Saying something shares a mechanic or genre with something else isn't saying they're "the same thing"; it just means they share that one characteristic.

So, Crash Bandicoot is a third-person, 2D platformer, while Gears of War is a third-person shooter. Portal is a puzzle-solving FPS, while Half Life is an FPS centring on combat (though the latter kind is so much more common, we usually don't need to specify that an FPS centres on combat. It would only be relevant when comparing it with one that doesn't).