Extra Punctuation: Roleplaying Homosexual in Dragon Age 2

[ImmortalDrifter]

Only thing that confuses me is that Anders was straight in awakening, then they just decided to "make" him gay. The retcon is killing me.

Ddn't think you could romance in awakening

You can't but he makes a lot of comments that indicates it. Such as "I wish i could just retire to the countryside with a plump wife and several nubile mistresses." or "Velanna, did you know i find women with tattoos extremely attractive?". Added to the fact that you can flirt with him when you are female but not male.

 

[rapidoud]

Wow, that was really stupid sounding. No offensive,

Stop, look at the world around you and think before you type. You'll sound smarter.

Says you, "No offensive".

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

I was going to ask how he handled the end game, but I see he covered that. I wasn't interested in Anders, and man was I angry at the end. I can only imagine someone pursuing a romance with him would be even more upset.
On a personal note, I don't think I like Anders being gay. (Throws in quick self-defense speech here), but because in Awakening, there was no hint of it. He seemed to be solely focused on the the ladies, so much so that it got to the point where I wanted to tell him to shut up. Him suddenly being gay was a bit of a jerking turn for me, breaking his character a bit. If it had been any other character I wouldn't have even noticed, but Anders I went, "Wait. Since when are you gay?"

confused gay men do this all the time. the ones struggling with their sexuality will try to get anything female on board in the hopes of hiding their confusion from the world, especially if they have some influence telling them that Homosexuality is Bad and You Do Not Like It. chances are, the intention was for him to become comfortable with it or he just kind of did it between games.

as for the article, i'm glad to hear this perspective be brought up for discussion, because i feel that the anti-gay sentiment in the mainstream media, though it has gone down a lot as people become more educated about homosexuality, is aggressive enough that gays are still an acceptable target of hate borne from confusion. men who are confused about their feelings or worried about being accepted by their peers if they so much as admit to having any are not alone in the world, and that confusion is certainly not specific to any single orientation. gay men and straight men are exactly the same for most of their lives-confused about sex and not sure they're doing the whole "social interaction" thing right until they are old enough to be comfortable in themselves. i applaud a game that caters not only to all sexual orientations (there's even an option for no romance, after all), but to both the audience who has found comfort in being someone else while accepting the details as they come up, like yahtzee, and those who have not yet discovered a comfort zone in that, like the anti-gay-romance campaign on the bioware forums. there really, truly is something in this game for everyone, so can we please just get along now?

 

[The Gnome King]

Or saying I'm not gay, I heard that works pretty well too.

That too.

Stop, look at the world around you and think before you type. You'll sound smarter.

You might do well to take your own advice and observe that you live in a world in which actively - violently, even - fighting against something can often be an indicator that you do in fact relate to the object of your visible dislike. For an example of this in action, observe politicians who make a huge show of how anti-homosexuality they are in their suggested legislation, their responses to media inquiry, etc., only to be later discovered in the company of a young male prostitute or in some similarly compromising position.

In other words, getting into fights as an attempt to prove you're not gay? It's not very dependable as tactics go.

And I really hate it when people pull that shit out. Liberals must secretly fantasize about Sarah Plain because they hate her. Israelis and Muslims also must actually love each other. Oh, and Nazis must have liked Jews which is why they killed them too... Yeah. That makes very little sense when put in other circumstances but as soon as its sexuality, it works. Why does everybody always assume the oddest things? I really don't get it.

I believe guys and girls go together great. Not guys with guys. Simple.

Actually, my friend: by acting violent towards gays who "hit" on you instead of simply saying, "No thanks, I'm not gay" you are acting homophobic; i.e.; exhibiting a negative attitude towards homosexuals and homosexual attitudes.

There have been scientific studies done showing that this is a sign of insecurity in your own sexuality. If you were secure in your sexuality, you could say "no thanks" without an issue. Saying that women need to know you're not gay and the only way they can know this is if you "beat up" gay men for hitting on you - which sounds suspiciously like internet bragging and not anything that has ever actually happened to you - that is quite sad. And it does indeed point to latent homosexual desires that you yourself may be hiding.

In other words, men secure in their sexuality don't need to beat up gays for being hit on. That sounds as ridiculous as gay men saying they need to beat women who hit on them so other gay men know they aren't straight.

Here's a link to the study, one of many:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

Abstract:
The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

ONLY the homophobic men - defined as men who have "admitted negative effect" towards homosexuals - got erections when watching gay porn. Kind of interesting, isn't it?

If you are so insecure and frightened that the only way you can fend off a gay advance is to attack the man, that is just sad; plain and simple. If, as I suspect, this is internet e-peen arguing then you just need to realize your attitude makes you look immature.

There's a simple way to fend off a gay advance - say no thanks. It's the same way I "fend off" advances from both men and women who hit on me that I find unattractive.

If you believe that heterosexuality is the way to go, that's fine. I don't think there's a single gay man out there who would care to "convert" you - but there are very easy ways to fend off unwanted attention. (Just ask women; they've been dealing with unwanted attention from men who objectify them for many, many years.) You say "no thanks" and move on.

And if the women you hang out with seriously need to see you "beat down" a man to "prove" you're not gay; you need to find some new women to hang with, my friend.

In the meantime, you might want to consider those studies on homophobia. No self-confidant straight man feels the need to resort to violence to handle a simple come-on. That's just ridiculous and immature and... well, it speaks more to your own fears about yourself than it does to gays.

The reason people say this about sexuality is that study after study (and homophobic republican after homophobic republican) shows that those who react with violence towards homosexuals are the ones who have... well, let's just say they're the one with some things they're hiding.

Perhaps even from themselves. No normal, mentally healthy individual responds to somebody "hitting on them" with violence.

And if you do like violence against gays for its own sake, might I suggest attending an "International Men of Leather" convention? You'll see plenty of very manly, very large gay men there more than happy to respond to your violence with some violence of their own.

 

[The Gnome King]

And I really hate it when people pull that shit out. Liberals must secretly fantasize about Sarah Plain because they hate her. Israelis and Muslims also must actually love each other. Oh, and Nazis must have liked Jews which is why they killed them too... Yeah. That makes very little sense when put in other circumstances but as soon as its sexuality, it works.

Actually the difference isn't relating it to sexuality (the Nazis killed a lot of homosexuals, too, as I recall), it's more the sense of scale. Hundreds of people bashing one person? Doubtful that they all are doing it as a way to deny more positive feelings toward that person or what they represent. One person making a big deal out of denying X quality about themselves? That falls under the heading of, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." When you go out of your way to deny something - in this case by going so far as to start a fight over it when a simple "Not interested" accomplishes the same goal - it gives people reason to wonder why you're making such a big deal about it, as though it's hitting closer to home than it should.

It comes up frequently in discussing sexuality, particularly with regard to men and homosexuality, because of social constructs around the concept: expectations of what men are supposed to be and how they're supposed to act vs. what's actually going on, wanting to live up to those expectations, the differences between blahblahblahthisisnottheforumforasocialscienceslectureblahblahblah which is why, if you think about it, you're better off with the gel soles rather than hiking boots when corralling pythons anyway.


Edit: point of clarification, I'm not insinuating anything about your sexual preferences by pointing this out. I'm only observing that others who witness your actions might come to conclusions other than those you intend for them to derive from your behavior.

They've even done studies on it, like the one I provided to him above -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

"The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies."

 

[Sgt. Dante]

I tend to play a female character in RPG's like this, coming back to Yahztee's point about playing a role that isn't in our own nature, But I have nothing against same sex relationships, it's happened in the occasional play through if it makes sense for my character.

 

[sapphireofthesea]

I have to say, the same thing happened in the first DA with Liliana (I had a female character). For some reason from the very start I had an affection for her (and even though she was a theif and my character was also a theif I always had her in my party). Then when it came time for conversation at the camp I always found her dialogue to be interesting. It was only when she was close to maximum respect that I thought (as I wasn't too keen on the whole romance thing) hey, this is actually kinda interesting and I am not really too keen on seeing my character with anyone else (I had harboured the idea of going with Alistar before but Liliana took more of my nterest). It was kinda weird but did add an interesting new level to the game that i must say I really enjoyed.
However, it worked a litle too well, as I want Liliana back in DA2, cause it don't feel right without her in my party.

 

[arikata]

Bravo! It's always good to see that not all video game males are insecure little boys. Anyone who has a problem with gay characters in a video game need to seriously sit in a corner until they can grow up.

 

[sarahvait]

Why are people so homophobi?

Its not your going to get the case of the "gays" by playing a game... haha

Always fun to poke fun at homophobis go and "hit" on them its funny as all hell how mad they get.

Because gays are scary dude... O.O

Haha. Thats prolly the truth. But seriously, I have gotten into fights with gays who think its cool to hit on me. Why? Because I have to prove I'm manly and not gay. I know I'm not into homosexual stuff but the ladies don't. And yes, its necessary.

I wish it wasn't like that but thats just how it is.

And... is it difficult living in Hickville and are your "manly man man" friends as insecure as well?

Seriously, there's no other explanation but horrid, massive insecurity for that kind of behavior.

Wow, that was really stupid sounding. No offensive, I'm sure you're a real nice guy but you didn't even read my comment. I said the only reason I fight gays (with the occasional exception, like when a gay's annoying as fuck) is because some women might get the idea that you're gay. So I'm not proving it to my friends, genius. Ladies are my reason. And here in hickville we would actually be over-joyed if all the homosexuals left. Then we'd go and ride our pick-up trucks and shoot some shotguns. Unfortunately I don't live in this legendary "hickville". And fighting is not always a sign of weakness. People like you are usually the ones I end up fighting.

Stop, look at the world around you and think before you type. You'll sound smarter.

You know, I'm just one female out of many, but if I was around to see you get in a fight with a gay guy just because he was hitting on you, I wouldn't find it manly at all. I think it would be kind of dumb. And I wouldn't even be inclined to believe your display of "Look ladies, I'm not gay". Call me crazy, but you simply telling the guy "I'm not gay, so don't hit on me" would be much more convincing to me than a fist fight. Or is it just unreasonable to give people the benefit of the doubt anymore?

 

[arikata]

Or saying I'm not gay, I heard that works pretty well too.

That too.

Stop, look at the world around you and think before you type. You'll sound smarter.

You might do well to take your own advice and observe that you live in a world in which actively - violently, even - fighting against something can often be an indicator that you do in fact relate to the object of your visible dislike. For an example of this in action, observe politicians who make a huge show of how anti-homosexuality they are in their suggested legislation, their responses to media inquiry, etc., only to be later discovered in the company of a young male prostitute or in some similarly compromising position.

In other words, getting into fights as an attempt to prove you're not gay? It's not very dependable as tactics go.

And I really hate it when people pull that shit out. Liberals must secretly fantasize about Sarah Plain because they hate her. Israelis and Muslims also must actually love each other. Oh, and Nazis must have liked Jews which is why they killed them too... Yeah. That makes very little sense when put in other circumstances but as soon as its sexuality, it works. Why does everybody always assume the oddest things? I really don't get it.

I believe guys and girls go together great. Not guys with guys. Simple.

As a lady, nothing turns me off faster than a scared little boy who thinks fighting will make him look like a man. Which is exactly what you sound like right here. And fighting just because some dude hit on you? That just doubles the patheticness. The mature option is to just say 'thanks man, but I'm straight,' in which case the other man will probably smile, laugh and appologies and move on. With that response all the ladies will see that you're comfortable with your sexuality and would be much more likely to respond to your advantage. But seeing you start a fight just because he was hitting on you? All that's gunna do is make someone call the cops on your ass and go over to comfort the poor man you just assaulted.

In conclusion.


Grow. The. Fuck. Up.

 

[Xersues]

I found it interesting how you can get into any relationship you want, but many of them just felt very insincere.

I did both the lesbian and gay relationships and they both felt wooden and unpleasant, not because they're something I'm not, but because it was unbelievable acting.

That's the thing about relationships, they come in all kinds of shades of emotion and commitment with different expectations. It feels more like the NPCs take you for a ride, and you can't really take them for one. Seriously, they can do some pretty unsettling things to the plot line, but you can't really do them back if you wanted to.


Either way, roleplaying aside, the gameplay for DA2 was terrible and so was the environments for me. Made me care less about the world since you couldn't go exploring and understand the world. Its only forcibly described to you, you can't discover it.

JRPGs allowed for more random town-person subplots than DA2 ever let me do. Where you find out a little about some one and their aspirations and you had some effect on them if you explored a little.

That to me means a lot more out of a game, not that you can cross swords with another dude or something. Who cares, it didn't make the game any more or less interesting in the long run. The first one allowed me to effect the world and explore a bit more, but the second one was just devoid of it. Why Bioware?

 

[DTWolfwood]

I anticipate at least a few "lol, ur gay" comments.

the obligatory:

lol, ur gay XD

Its strange. I wanted to use Anders being the only healer NPC in the party, but he just rubbed me the wrong way somewhere down the line. No idea y so i never brought him along. O i guess it could be i was a Mage spec'd for elemental AOE and healing XD

edit: actually now that i think about it was because the man was completely Squishy! he was almost always the first to drop dead >.< had to spec him with the rock shield just so he wouldn't be the first to die. which to me felt like he was a gimped healer! XD ...yeh too much MMO in my past.

 

[Therumancer]

Well, as I've said before I don't think you need to be "homophobic" to not want to deal with having gay guys make passes at you. What's more it's important to note that pretty much every character in this game is romancable by both genders. One of the big complaints is that this was a lazy approach compared to the first game, where the differant characters were more realistically set in their sexual orientations. Morrigan for example was solidly heterosexual. Not to mention the simple fact that Anders is a recurring character from "Dragon Age: Awakening" and he wasn't supposed to be gay... that irks some people as well.

It's interesting to note that it's not just heterosexuals that are upset by this, but also the gay community, or portions of it, don't much care for the stereotypes involved.

On top of everything else, I think it's also not being considered that gays are a tiny percentage of the population. One of the big defenses of homosexuality and the gay rights movement in general is that one does not need to go on the offensive, since these people are liable to just leave you alone. When you start running into video games with aggressive homosexual themes, that plays havoc with the entire idea. Especially when the proliferation of homosexuality is well out of proportion to what it is IRL.

I'll also say that I think "homophobia" is a deliberatly loaded and offensive term, as it was always intended to be. Using that term/label tends to create a confrontational attitude where one doesn't need to exist. I am anti-gay men, and feel there can be a dialogue on the subject without needing to turn it into a giant war, though that usually happens anyway. I won't go into my thoughts and experiences with the subject, I've done that before, but let's just say that there is far more to the issue than arguements based on religion, it's just you rarely hear those arguements because the only anti- side that tends to be given a platform is a religious one.

For the sake of being realistic, I will also say that fair or not lesbianism is received differantly by the general public, especially the gaming public. You'll notice plenty of complaints about Anders, but not many about Isabela or Merril for example. I admit to finding two or more hot girls getting it on to be well... hot, as do a lot of straight guys. Argue a dual standard and hypocricy among the audience all you want (even though I think this is hardly the case and gays and lesbians should be seperated, just as genders are seperated for other issues. That is however well off topic and I'm not going to go into it, but it goes beyond any "turn on" factor despite my earlier honesty in this paragraph), but frankly if a company wants to include homosexuality in a game without causing these kinds of complaints, that's the way to go.

 

[Baldry]

You almost made me cry Yahtzee, with this beautiful love story...Wish I had dragon age 2...

 

[InevitableFate]

Well, as I've said before I don't think you need to be "homophobic" to not want to deal with having gay guys make passes at you. What's more it's important to note that pretty much every character in this game is romancable by both genders.

This is a recurring topic here. I feel obliged to point out that it's not a problem, presumably, for heterosexuals to have the opposite gender er "make a pass at you". Also, presumably, it's ok for you to make a pass at opposite gender homosexuals as you don't know that's what they are. Does it not occur to you people that the same might be true for the homosexual?

This poster then brings up the difference between MalexMale and FemalexFemale homosexuality. The thing is, this IS a double standard. I have a hypothesis that sex is, by default, disturbing and slightly gross and sexual attraction overcomes this feeling, but only when involving the group that the subject is actually attracted to. This is derived from a number of sources; the majority of asexuals feel this way, heterosexuals, even non-homophibic ones, will admit to feeling... let's say unnerved by the idea of homosexual relationships between members of the same gender, but NOT opposite gender. In fact, they will say that opposite gender is attractive.

------------------

Now, onto the article.

The article brings up a phenomina very prevalent in the asexual community: The difference between romantic orientation and sexual orientation. A large portion of asexuals, myself not among them, experience romantic attraction. That is, the desire to enter romantic relationships with people, but without the desire to have sex with them. Romantic orientations can be all the things sexual ones can: Heteroromantic, Homoromantic, Biromantic, [aromantic], panromantic, etc. This concept is supported by other scientific theories (primarily dealing with the idea of primary and secondary attractions if you want to look them up). One thing that's been talked about is the idea that romantic and sexual attraction can be dissassociated. Someone sexually attracted to men, by romantically to women if you understand me. It's very likely true that there are a number of aromantic sexuals about the place. What Yahtzee describes strikes me as Biromantic Heterosexuality.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

Why are people complaining about the gay relationships between men in dragon age 2? Did anyone complain about the lesbian relationship between Leliana and Marjorie or Leliana insinuations to Morrigan on Origins/Awakening?!


OT: I am now playing origins/Awakwening and all the small quests so I can get DA2 soon. Its funny that being a man, playing Leliana's Song,

Spoiler

I ended up filling the same about marjorie as yatzze felt about Anders. Despite her betrayal, the attachment I felt existed between her and leliana made me spare her life in the end. Although a future together was impossible.

Too bad that the only caracther that is opened for relationship on the main campaign is Morrigan. I would like to have seen possibilities with Leliana or Allistair.

 

[IamGamer41]

Yeah I guess it would.So when one of them knocks the shit out of you for doing that are you going to take them to court for a hate crime?

Baa they all hit like girls. Beside why so mad?

Who's mad?

 

[le picklez]

I do believe this is the first time I've read something by Yahtzee that didn't complain about anythin.

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

*reads a bit of the final part* Oh sh...he's started Pokémon White?!? Okay, I'm scared now. I actually started a "Let's Play" of sorts about Pokémon Black and White on another forum and actually did it in the style as if being read by our favorite Aussie in the fancy cap who did this article!

Seriously...here's a bit of it...

Well...how nice! Me and my two friends, Bianca and Cheron, are getting Pokémon! All wrapped up in a fancy box and everything. Well...we WILL as soon as Bianca stops being fashionably late and gets here already.

Right...now to choose, and I get first dibs. I'll take the Tepig, since the second and third gyms are going to be cake with this one. (Sorry for looking ahead.) Now Bianca can surge forward and snatch one before Cheron can and Cheron gets the one he wanted anyway. Seeing as how he wanted the one with the type advantage over mine, there's no doubt who my main rival is.

What? Bianca wants to battle in my room? Are you MAD, Bianca? We're dealing with little monstrosities with potentially more firepower than the sixth fleet! Oh...you don't care and you've attacked me anyway. Well, I still managed to beat you, despite the lack of any elemental attacks, and now my room looks like my dorm room did after that one kegger in college. Should I be concerned that the Pokémon managed to get footprints on my walls and ceiling despite only using Tackle and moves that lower defense either by wagging a tail cutely or looking at you funny?

Right...well at least Cheron healed our Pokémon after that rout. Makes me wonder where he got Nurse Joy's Aura of Smooth. Now Bianca's suggesting me and him battle since we cannot make my room any messier. (She obviously hasn't seen the aforementioned dorm.) But he got whipped soundly as well. Time to go downstairs and apologize to Mom for turning my room into an artistic statement representing Charlie Sheen's career.

Well, Mom wasn't too mad and even had said she'll clean up the mess while the rest of us go see Professor Juniper. Trust me Mom...after seeing what the Pokémon did, you'll probably want something DERIVED from juniper afterwards. Oh...and she had my Tepig rest so it was healed. Must be some kind of RPG requirement that a good sleep has healing abilities.

Anyways...off to the Prof, but first I'll see what Bianca is doing since she had to get something at home. Apparently, that something being getting a verbal beatdown from her daddy for not having the smarts to go adventuring. Oh...her mom's saying he just oveprotective. Still...why does this bode ill?

Well...no matter. We went to see the prof, she gave shiny new Pokédexes, and told us to meet her on Route 1. Very well...we all head off and...

Hang on a bit. Bianca wants us to step onto Route 1 at the same time? Oh lord...she's one of THOSE kinds of friends, is she? If she suggests matching uniforms for the three of us, I am so unfriending her on my Facebook page.

Anyways...Professor Juniper showed us how to capture a Pokémon and then gave us some Pokéballs. Say what you want about being a Pokémon trainer...but you definitely needs some balls to be one. The Prof then says to meet her in Accumula Town...whereupon Bianca suggests seeing who could catch the most Pokémon before getting there. Cheron seems on board, so I guess it's not TOO braindead an idea, despite where it came from.

Right. Managed to snag a Patrat and 4 Lillipup on route, and Bianca was impressed. I'd be even more impressed if she actually told me how many she caught. Wasn't this supposed to be a challenge? Anyways...off to Accumula Town to see what the Prof wants, and hopefully get some more free stuff.

 

[pieguy259]

...Then, even having finished the game and moved onto Pokemon White...

And suddenly I've lost all respect for Yahtzee and his opinions whatsoever.

Yeah, Black was way better.