Extra Punctuation: What Is the Matter with You People?
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I want to say it's dumb to have a game where you can kill everything but X, X being kids, kittens or the damn my little ponies.
Now for skyrim and other similar games, I'm going to say it's not exactly in there to be annoying, but more like since you can do things likes take their clothes, cut off their heads and pose them, it would be a complete ****storm the second someone did something like this with kids.
http://kotaku.com/5863096/a-peek-inside-the-home-of-skyrims-first-serial-killer
Think of all the laws it'd break.
Now for skyrim and other similar games, I'm going to say it's not exactly in there to be annoying, but more like since you can do things likes take their clothes, cut off their heads and pose them, it would be a complete ****storm the second someone did something like this with kids.
http://kotaku.com/5863096/a-peek-inside-the-home-of-skyrims-first-serial-killer
Think of all the laws it'd break.
I have no real need to kill a child in a game, they are threatening and I consider them background. But the ones in Fallout 3 - those fuckers that insult you continuously and then start shooting you when you try to discipline them but you have to run as you cant damage them. Them bastards deserved, maybe not death, but at least a slap to teach them some respect.
You know the kids im talking about.
You know the kids im talking about.
I would install a child-killing mod, and here's why:
Any time actually becomes relevent, it ruins my suspension of disbelief.
It's got nothing to do with the desire to kill children. I've got lots of games where I can murder friendly NPC's and I never do, unless I'm about to stop playing and feel like screwing around for 30 seconds first.
I didn't even know you could kill children in Deus Ex, because I never tried, but consider another game. In Half Life 2 you can't harm friendly NPCs. Ok, fine. It doesn't bother me that I can't jump around in the story bits and knock people around with the crowbar. It DOES bother me (very much) that if Alyx is being swarmed by zombies friendly immunity makes it a sound strategy to launch a grenade directly at her.
Any time actually becomes relevent, it ruins my suspension of disbelief.
It's got nothing to do with the desire to kill children. I've got lots of games where I can murder friendly NPC's and I never do, unless I'm about to stop playing and feel like screwing around for 30 seconds first.
I didn't even know you could kill children in Deus Ex, because I never tried, but consider another game. In Half Life 2 you can't harm friendly NPCs. Ok, fine. It doesn't bother me that I can't jump around in the story bits and knock people around with the crowbar. It DOES bother me (very much) that if Alyx is being swarmed by zombies friendly immunity makes it a sound strategy to launch a grenade directly at her.
I'd suggest developers allow npcs to kill children but not PCs, but I know it wouldn't help, people would just complain.
"how come the troll can kill a child and I can't? I mean, it severely devalues the active choice of not just murdering every child in sight if I know I can't! quick someone mod this so I can totally *not* kill any children!"
no I didn't read the 11 page thread.
"how come the troll can kill a child and I can't? I mean, it severely devalues the active choice of not just murdering every child in sight if I know I can't! quick someone mod this so I can totally *not* kill any children!"
no I didn't read the 11 page thread.
I agree with the general sentiment that killing children is an ethical no-no. However, I think Yahtzee's argument starts to falter under a little scrunity. If the intention of the developers to withhold the player from killing children to maintain the "heroic" nature, why is this not consistent within all the games quests and actions you can take?
I've recently got a quest from a daedric lord once I acquired it's weapon to seek out and murder those that I've gained trust with, and won favor for. So by this I can surmise that bethesda thinks systematically murdering those who trust me(10 people!), to power a blade that feeds on deceit and betrayal, is less morally dubious than killing a single child? Or how about beating a priest into submission until he forsakes his god's and is damned an eternity under the the "prince of rape" through my help with this god.
These two examples are of quests that the developer deliberately created! So how do we draw moral equivalencies between that of what happens in real life, and a videogame? We really can't to be honest. An invincible child is just obstruction of the overall flow of the game, one directly imposed on the player.
I had no reason to get the mod because I don't senselessly kill people in games, but other people have no such qualms.
I've recently got a quest from a daedric lord once I acquired it's weapon to seek out and murder those that I've gained trust with, and won favor for. So by this I can surmise that bethesda thinks systematically murdering those who trust me(10 people!), to power a blade that feeds on deceit and betrayal, is less morally dubious than killing a single child? Or how about beating a priest into submission until he forsakes his god's and is damned an eternity under the the "prince of rape" through my help with this god.
These two examples are of quests that the developer deliberately created! So how do we draw moral equivalencies between that of what happens in real life, and a videogame? We really can't to be honest. An invincible child is just obstruction of the overall flow of the game, one directly imposed on the player.
I had no reason to get the mod because I don't senselessly kill people in games, but other people have no such qualms.
To those arguing against the "immersion" points, think for a second. We're not asking that a game be realistic, we're asking that the game play by the rules that it created for itself. Magic A is Magic A [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA] (Fair warning: TvTropes)
Let's make an analogy: In the game, you have cheese, eggs, and berries. You can eat the cheese, you can eat the eggs, but you can't eat berries. And the game doesn't bother to give you any reason for not being able to eat the berries. The game could have said "berries are poisonous" and we would have been okay with it.
Gamers have this ability called suspension of disbelief. You kind of have to if you want to play any fantasy game. I guarantee you, if Bethesda had bothered to give the slightest reason for making kids immortal, people would be fine with it. But because there is no reason otherwise, the perceived reason is "because doing so is wrong in another reality's rules that have no bearing on this game".
P.S. = Someone said this before me, but I feel the need to repeat it because it was golden.
Sex with adults is legal.
Sex with children is illegal.
Murder of adults is illegal.
Murder of children is illegal.
Let's make an analogy: In the game, you have cheese, eggs, and berries. You can eat the cheese, you can eat the eggs, but you can't eat berries. And the game doesn't bother to give you any reason for not being able to eat the berries. The game could have said "berries are poisonous" and we would have been okay with it.
Gamers have this ability called suspension of disbelief. You kind of have to if you want to play any fantasy game. I guarantee you, if Bethesda had bothered to give the slightest reason for making kids immortal, people would be fine with it. But because there is no reason otherwise, the perceived reason is "because doing so is wrong in another reality's rules that have no bearing on this game".
P.S. = Someone said this before me, but I feel the need to repeat it because it was golden.
Sex with adults is legal.
Sex with children is illegal.
Murder of adults is illegal.
Murder of children is illegal.
You've been able to kill children in World of Warcraft since launch if you're the opposing faction, i do not see why this is suddenly big news
The reason why i want to murder skyrim(and fallout 3/new vegas)'s children is this:
A: I don't think of these characters as people. The characters have improved in skyrim, but they still suck, and for me, they're walking quest dispensers/pawnshops.
B: Most of the children in skyrim are FUCKING ANNOYING. Most of them just annoy by constantly walking up to you and talking to you(just as everyone else), but a few of them are downright infuriating.
You're not afraid of me, even though i am your elder? I GET IT NOW SHUT UP YOU LITTLE BRAT.
Also, i argue that at least in FONV/3, children getting murdered was very much within the tone of the game. If a kid wants thousands of bottlcaps for a toy gun that happens to bring fiery laser retribution down from the sky, he can die in a fire.
(also, just thought about this: presumable the C-finder in FONV is activated with the trigger, so wouldn't max accidentally bring down fiery murderdeathlasers the next time he plays with it after ARCHIMEDES is activated?)
A: I don't think of these characters as people. The characters have improved in skyrim, but they still suck, and for me, they're walking quest dispensers/pawnshops.
B: Most of the children in skyrim are FUCKING ANNOYING. Most of them just annoy by constantly walking up to you and talking to you(just as everyone else), but a few of them are downright infuriating.
You're not afraid of me, even though i am your elder? I GET IT NOW SHUT UP YOU LITTLE BRAT.
Also, i argue that at least in FONV/3, children getting murdered was very much within the tone of the game. If a kid wants thousands of bottlcaps for a toy gun that happens to bring fiery laser retribution down from the sky, he can die in a fire.
(also, just thought about this: presumable the C-finder in FONV is activated with the trigger, so wouldn't max accidentally bring down fiery murderdeathlasers the next time he plays with it after ARCHIMEDES is activated?)
Personally, I would prefer a game where I could kill Child Murder modders. There is no reason to have it in Skyrim. You're playing a game where you can shoot fire out of your hands and you are upset because a couple of children are running around a scorched town. Grow up.
The main thing is immersion. I would like killable children in Skyrim. Not because I want to kill them myself, but because it makes sense that they die from a dragonsbreath. The emotional impact it could have could also make the game more engaging. Children are a cheap emotional leverage, but it feels good when you save them because they are pretty helpless.Sylocat said:
Saving a city from a dragon would be all the more epic when the kids come crawling out of the woodwork afterwards, rush around you and thank you for your heroic effort. Likewise, the negative emotional impact would be big when you dont manage to save them.
In short: Killable kids, yes please.
I'd want children in Skyrim to be able to die, not because I want to kill them, but so something else like an attacking dragon could.
It can add drama and grittiness if NPCs can kill them or if they die as a result of collateral damage. I'll have to watch where I fling that sword around a bit more than usual.
It can add drama and grittiness if NPCs can kill them or if they die as a result of collateral damage. I'll have to watch where I fling that sword around a bit more than usual.
I really cannot believe Yahtzee took that quote from his video seriously. It's pretty obvious it was sarcastic comment about how people not finding the death of a child shocking enough, a joke, like "You people are really complaining about a childs death not being shocking enough? Okay well here's another shocking child-killing scenario for all you sick, jaded whackos out there. Shocking enough? You satisfied?"
Kind of disappointed in Yatzhee right now.
Kind of disappointed in Yatzhee right now.
I think it would make more sense if the mod made it so children could die, just not by your character (I.E. dragon kills them), but then that too raises annoying complications and laughable scenarios.
I don't get why removing child invincibility is so terrible. People may go on mass murder sprees. So what? They can make an evil character if they want to. Killing helpless adults is terrible. No less so than killing the kids.
Besides there have been games in the past that have featured child murder without mods. Fatal frame 2 is one of them. There are scenes where children are strangled to death as sacrifices. one ceremony didn't work which resulted in the brutal murder of everyone in the village including all of the children (who wander and occasionally attack you as ghosts). I also remember a child character being killed off in Shadow Hearts Covenant when a town your character lived in was occupied by a foreign military. Her soul then lives inside you to help you find final happiness as you slowly die over the course of the game.
Besides there have been games in the past that have featured child murder without mods. Fatal frame 2 is one of them. There are scenes where children are strangled to death as sacrifices. one ceremony didn't work which resulted in the brutal murder of everyone in the village including all of the children (who wander and occasionally attack you as ghosts). I also remember a child character being killed off in Shadow Hearts Covenant when a town your character lived in was occupied by a foreign military. Her soul then lives inside you to help you find final happiness as you slowly die over the course of the game.
its not about killing children, its about removing an immersion-killing annoyance from the game. ideally they shouldnt be there to begin with, because bethesda made invincible, untouchable children who are annoying little shits that get bathed in dragon breath without so much as a reaction... which kind of kills my "mighty dragon-slayer" vibe. kind of a bad habit theyve gotten since fallout 3. when people bring up the "realism" argument, that is sarcasm. they are telling you how obnoxious having children in a game where you can murder everyone is, because obviously you wouldnt be able to murder children.
and bethesda knows the issues, they just apparently forgot them. in oblivion, Miaq the liar, the in-game mouthpiece for why something isnt in the game, said "i think children are the future, but i dont want them ruining our fun."
i dont want to kill children. i want to have fun. children are impeding that. is it any wonder these mods come up? and that i am in FULL support of them?
and bethesda knows the issues, they just apparently forgot them. in oblivion, Miaq the liar, the in-game mouthpiece for why something isnt in the game, said "i think children are the future, but i dont want them ruining our fun."
i dont want to kill children. i want to have fun. children are impeding that. is it any wonder these mods come up? and that i am in FULL support of them?
I very much second that. I wonder how much modding competence one need to aquire to accomplish such a feature.Raddra said:
Though I would rather give them some good medieval spanking myself. Just like the "brawl" minigame...
Come to think of it, a lot of the adults should get someform of non-lethal method of getting taught a lesson. Especially the racist-idiots in Windhelm.
It's funny that Yahtzee jumps down that route, because it's not really applicable. In fact, it reeks of the same sort of attempt at "shocking" people as Activision is attempting to check off with their game, here's Yahtzee, here's his "shocking" review, his dick jokes, his biting and scathing sarcasm and hatefilled opinion... oh.
I suppose a lot of us depend on check-lists.
I suppose a lot of us depend on check-lists.
It's times like this that I sort of wish Yahtzee was required to read all of the responses he gets because... well, I'm about to sort of knock him around a bit more than I have before, and I really think he needs it:
Yahtzee, even though you will never read this you DO realize that this game is one where you have the actual abillity to be evil right? You know sort of like your proclaimed plans to want to play as "Ming The Merciless" in Fable always get ruined by the central game design not allowing you to be evil enough. Cases where being evil is more like being a puppy kicking jerk than anything truely villanous...
In Skyrim this is a game where one quest involves you luring a guy into a dungeon so you can eat him in worship of a demon in order to obtain a mystical ring. The most powerful weapon in the game is a rip off of "Stormbringer" where you are not encouraged to kill random people, but to murder people who trust you because you did quests for them in order to power it up.
Let's say your playing a pitch-black evil run through, and honestly you have no real reason to criticize because you've made it abundantly clear you do this, and are the one guy I would think I don't have to explain the appeal of dark play, horror movies, and similar things to. Your a cannibal seriel killer, who gets their rocks off by earning people's trust so you can lure them back to your place and feed them to your soul drinking sword. Your hobbies include theft, and depopulating towns, and only want Alduin dead because you can't stand someone else competing with you for the title of most evil bastard on the mortal plane. In this case why should children be excluded from your rampages?
Let's also be blunt about something, not ONE parent, babysitter, or person who has worked with children has not occasionally wanted to just haul off a pulp some little sh@t against a wall. Kids are annoying, noisy, and frustrating. We don't do this because it would be wrong, and we're not self-serving sociopaths. However it can occasionally be somewhat relaxing to give in to an impulse like that harmlessly.
This is to say nothing about the existance of child-soldiers throughout the third world, or the age at which kids in ancient times frequently entered the battle field.
A big part of why this issue recurs is because game designers don't try and make their kids likable, but as annoying as possible. About the 47th time I had child gueriellas make me play gofer while calling me "Mungo" in Fallout 3 I was ready to just splatter the whole community of Little Lamplight, and really even as a good guy I would put it into the context of say dealing with a group of gun toting African child-fodder.
To seriously ask this question raises questions about "why would anyone want to play as the bad guy?", "why do people enjoy horror movies?", why had Kane Hodder gone to conventions or things like "Spooky World" (closed now, theme park in Massachusetts) and signed plastic replica hockey masks (he's perhaps the most famous actor to portray Jason Vorhees). People ask these questions frequently, and the answers vary... but the end result is that it's perfectly normal behavior. For there to be a problem with things like this you need to be dealing with people who cannot seperate fantasy from reality at all or are both sociopathic and murderously sadistic... both of which are unthinkably rare despite what Hollywood might lead you to believe from the movies.
When it comes to having sex with children, that's not my cup of tea, especially given that I was raped (by an older kid) when I was like six. I tend to have an issue with it, but there are contexts where I think it might be appropriate. A game attempting to say promote ancient greece, rome, or asia that insisted on a modern age of consent would be odd, given the huge focus on child brides and such which have had a lasting culture influance on those cultures into today (I've read a bit on why there is such a pedo-phille focus in Japan and why extreme youth is so heavily associated with beauty, I won't break it down, but let's just say it's something that goes beyond modern pervs, not that it in any way makes it acceptable).
It's sort of like slavery, I have no desire to take or keep slaves, but I see no real reason why if I'm supposed to be reveling in barbarian, egyptian, roman culture or whatever I have to be the only guy running around with the morality of a new millenium ulta-liberal.
If we as gamers want to get away from accusations about how video games cause violence and lead to violent behavior, we also need to get over things like how say someone who has no problem with killing kids or playing evil in a video game has something wrong with them that reflects on real life. The entire point of gaming is to get away from reality and do things you never would in reality.
Long, but hopefully this has been read. The bottom line is I think when it comes to an "M" rated game there should be little or no moral limitations imposed, especially if your dealing with a sandbox where the point is to dictate your own path and morality.
At the same time though, I do think there needs to be a bit more of a reaction to player behavior in these games. For example if you kill one town, I would think especially with mages and oracles and everything else that other towns might hear about it and become increasingly ready for you. If your going around banging (sexually) everyone in a game where it's permitted, likewise I think you'd develop a reputation, and might even have people going after you for your antics as much or more than you see from stealing stuff.
Yahtzee, even though you will never read this you DO realize that this game is one where you have the actual abillity to be evil right? You know sort of like your proclaimed plans to want to play as "Ming The Merciless" in Fable always get ruined by the central game design not allowing you to be evil enough. Cases where being evil is more like being a puppy kicking jerk than anything truely villanous...
In Skyrim this is a game where one quest involves you luring a guy into a dungeon so you can eat him in worship of a demon in order to obtain a mystical ring. The most powerful weapon in the game is a rip off of "Stormbringer" where you are not encouraged to kill random people, but to murder people who trust you because you did quests for them in order to power it up.
Let's say your playing a pitch-black evil run through, and honestly you have no real reason to criticize because you've made it abundantly clear you do this, and are the one guy I would think I don't have to explain the appeal of dark play, horror movies, and similar things to. Your a cannibal seriel killer, who gets their rocks off by earning people's trust so you can lure them back to your place and feed them to your soul drinking sword. Your hobbies include theft, and depopulating towns, and only want Alduin dead because you can't stand someone else competing with you for the title of most evil bastard on the mortal plane. In this case why should children be excluded from your rampages?
Let's also be blunt about something, not ONE parent, babysitter, or person who has worked with children has not occasionally wanted to just haul off a pulp some little sh@t against a wall. Kids are annoying, noisy, and frustrating. We don't do this because it would be wrong, and we're not self-serving sociopaths. However it can occasionally be somewhat relaxing to give in to an impulse like that harmlessly.
This is to say nothing about the existance of child-soldiers throughout the third world, or the age at which kids in ancient times frequently entered the battle field.
A big part of why this issue recurs is because game designers don't try and make their kids likable, but as annoying as possible. About the 47th time I had child gueriellas make me play gofer while calling me "Mungo" in Fallout 3 I was ready to just splatter the whole community of Little Lamplight, and really even as a good guy I would put it into the context of say dealing with a group of gun toting African child-fodder.
To seriously ask this question raises questions about "why would anyone want to play as the bad guy?", "why do people enjoy horror movies?", why had Kane Hodder gone to conventions or things like "Spooky World" (closed now, theme park in Massachusetts) and signed plastic replica hockey masks (he's perhaps the most famous actor to portray Jason Vorhees). People ask these questions frequently, and the answers vary... but the end result is that it's perfectly normal behavior. For there to be a problem with things like this you need to be dealing with people who cannot seperate fantasy from reality at all or are both sociopathic and murderously sadistic... both of which are unthinkably rare despite what Hollywood might lead you to believe from the movies.
When it comes to having sex with children, that's not my cup of tea, especially given that I was raped (by an older kid) when I was like six. I tend to have an issue with it, but there are contexts where I think it might be appropriate. A game attempting to say promote ancient greece, rome, or asia that insisted on a modern age of consent would be odd, given the huge focus on child brides and such which have had a lasting culture influance on those cultures into today (I've read a bit on why there is such a pedo-phille focus in Japan and why extreme youth is so heavily associated with beauty, I won't break it down, but let's just say it's something that goes beyond modern pervs, not that it in any way makes it acceptable).
It's sort of like slavery, I have no desire to take or keep slaves, but I see no real reason why if I'm supposed to be reveling in barbarian, egyptian, roman culture or whatever I have to be the only guy running around with the morality of a new millenium ulta-liberal.
If we as gamers want to get away from accusations about how video games cause violence and lead to violent behavior, we also need to get over things like how say someone who has no problem with killing kids or playing evil in a video game has something wrong with them that reflects on real life. The entire point of gaming is to get away from reality and do things you never would in reality.
Long, but hopefully this has been read. The bottom line is I think when it comes to an "M" rated game there should be little or no moral limitations imposed, especially if your dealing with a sandbox where the point is to dictate your own path and morality.
At the same time though, I do think there needs to be a bit more of a reaction to player behavior in these games. For example if you kill one town, I would think especially with mages and oracles and everything else that other towns might hear about it and become increasingly ready for you. If your going around banging (sexually) everyone in a game where it's permitted, likewise I think you'd develop a reputation, and might even have people going after you for your antics as much or more than you see from stealing stuff.
It's kind of foolish to say that "age of consent" and "laws" prevent you from banging kids, when you support murdering them, which is against the law.Marik Bentusi said:
If the modders really didn't just want to kill kids, They could've made it so that only NPCs can kill kids and not the player character. I think I would actually prefer that. It would give the best of both worlds
