Extra Punctuation: What Is the Matter with You People?

[newwiseman]

Number one reason I kill children in Bethesda games, they see a crime committed and instead of me being able to just kill them right there, I now have to fight my way through every guard in the city to get out; while had the kid been like every other NPC I could have snuffed them without witnesses and been on my marry way.

My basic reasoning, if your against the killing of children why have them in the game at all? I can't remember any whelps in Morrowind interfering in my escapades. If they're there then they need to be as susceptible to their surroundings as every other NPC.

As for going out of our way, enabling their 'death' is a hell of a lot easier than removing them from a finished game or disabling their reporting of crimes.

 

[Coldster]

Well would you look at that. An undeniable case against the modders and (some) users of Skyrim and put together very, very well to come to a logical conclusion. Outstanding work Yahtzee. I look forward to seeing more Extra Punctuation like this. This is the material that I really like to see.

No it's not. There is no case against the modders because they're not doing anything wrong. What someone does in their game (A fictional setting where no one real is hurt) is their business. Why do you care? Making the setting more consistent by making everyone susceptible to the same threats as anyone else doesn't make the modders freaks.

Can you please take your worthless argument somewhere else? I will not discuss this matter because it is obvious you have grounded yourself permanently on one side of it. All I will say is that I never dismissed the modders (or users) as "bad people". I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

EDIT: Fixed.

 

[HK_01]

From what I've seen (I don't have Skyrim yet), the children are really, really annoying. Bethesda seems to have designed them specifically to troll people by making you want to kill them and then going all like "oh, you want to kill this child? Well, you can't! HA!"

Same thing happened in FO3. The only reason I didn't install a child-killing mod there was because I got the "Child at Heart" perk and that made it somewhat bearable. Honestly, none of the adult NPCs act like such jerks.

 

[CommanderKirov]

What if I DO want to kill children?

What if my character is an Orc illusionist so fed up with how he was treated by humans for all his life he decided to take revange by driving all the other races to insanity shortly followed by a killing spree?

What if I want to sit sneaking in the corner and as a father puts his son to sleep send a nightmarish vision of monster eating his way out of his own offspring. Forcing the father to grab the sword from the nearby weapons rack and slice his son in two, as my orc warlock steps out of the shadow laughing maniacally taking out his enchanted mace trapping the father's soul in a gem and throwing it deep into the sea. Just so that the grieving parent can never know sweet embrace of death and is forced to re-live the deed he had done for all of the eternity in his timeless prison with no hope of escape?


IF I WANT TO DO THAT JUST LET ME!

 

[Raddra]

I got the mod because I was tired of children tanking dragons where the entire army of guards failed. It breaks your immersion for children to stand up from dragonfire that just killed three guards beside them.

Its a matter of immersion.

Thing is, Bethesta keep making the kids obnoxious. It really kills the mood, can nobody raise a child in this game? And if all the children are obnoxious, why are most of the adults fairly reasonable? Can the writers not write an ordinary child? They need to stop making obnoxious children. And they REALLY should not make children that throw insults and threats at the player, a character often walking around clad in full black ebony plate with a glowing red eyed helmet and a glowing red sword that steals souls on their back shrieking with the cries of the damned.

This no child death thing was purely included in the game to quiet news trolls and tabloids and the horrified outcries of layman non gaming people who don't understand what they're talking about and have no context on this matter except what fox news or the daily star gives them. The industry is bending backwards to cater to soccer moms and fox news.

Its not really the act that is the problem, but that it breaks the immersion, rules and the setting of the game.

Spoiler

For me it's just that it's more immersion breaking than anything. I was playing Skyrim last night and while I'm working at the forge in Riverwood a battalion of Stormcloak soldiers show up and just start straight up murdering the shit out of everyone. Needless to say this pissed me off because they also killed my supplier of Iron Ingots while they were at it. While all this is going on a Blood Dragon and a Frost Dragon show up and start attacking. So I pull out my bow while the epic music starts slowly building up in the background and get to work poisoning my arrows, finding a decent sniping spot and keeping an eye out for any potential cover. Needless to say, it felt like quite a kickass moment.

So after this battle involving a battalion of soldiers, innocent townspeople and two dragons is over I take a moment to survey the damage. This little village that I frequented quite often is now deserted. Empty. They even killed the dog! I think about how just a moment ago I was shopping, forging weapons and helping people out...and know they're all dea-

"I'm not afraid of you..even if you are my elder"

FUCKING KIDS!!!!

My way of thinking about the whole thing is to either makes the obey the rules of the game world like ever other NPC or just don't include them at all. They barely add anything to the game save a quest or two out of hundreds of quests.

It's not a desire to kill kids. It's a desire for the rules presented in the game world to be consistant. See....well, see my post that you quoted actually. Nowhere in the post do I mention a desire or anything close to that. We just want to be immersed and children that are immune to everything from Swords to Arrows to Fireballs to Bear maulings to Dragons prevents that not unlike a brick wall stopping any forward momentum.

Amen.

 

[Abedeus]

I want to kill everyone. Or have the option to do so, because Neverwinter Nights spoiled me on the idea of being able to kill everyone regardless of age.

 

[braincore02]

I didn't ask for children in Skyrim, and find them just as annoying as real children, so I'd like to be able to take them out. I will be installing this mod.

I would also settle for a mod that just silences the children. That might be better, since I'm not actually tempted to kill them until they mouth off at me, and there's usually guards around, making it more trouble than it's worth. It'd be so much better if they just never talked, or disappeared entirely.

 

[Yopaz]

Well would you look at that. An undeniable case against the modders and (some) users of Skyrim and put together very, very well to come to a logical conclusion. Outstanding work Yahtzee. I look forward to seeing more Extra Punctuation like this. This is the material that I really like to see.

No it's not. There is no case against the modders because they're not doing anything wrong. What someone does in their game (A fictional setting where no one real is hurt) is their business. Why do you care? Making the setting more consistent by making everyone susceptible to the same threats as anyone else doesn't make the modders freaks.

Can you please take your worthless argument somewhere else? I will not discuss this matter because it is obvious you have grounded yourself permanently on one side of it. All I will say is that I never dismissed the modders (or users) as "bad people". I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

EDIT: Fixed.

Or maybe because you have no case. I suppose that would make it hard to argue.

I just think that the desire to kill them for no other reason than "They annoy me" is a sign of a mind that's messed up.

I've killed adults for less in GTA. I don't see how killing kids in a game is more "messed up" than killing an adult. They're both equally fake, and it's equally harmless killing them.

So explain the desire to kill children without using the word realism or immersion since my posts have covered that.

 

[cornmancer]

The only time I have ever wanted to murder a child in a game was a brief moment in Skyrim. I was walking down the street, doing my thing, and all of a sudden some kid says, "I thought adventurers were supposed to look tough." I immediately saved, turned and put an ax in that kid's head, and that's when I remembered children are invincible. I was thinking more, "I'm going to murder this cock who happens to be a child." Not, "I'm going to murder this child."

But that was one moment and purely as a joke, not a serious desire to see this kid drop dead. Never have I wanted to install the child murdering patch, and I have on several occasions asked, "What the serious fucking fuck?" of my friends who have installed such things.

 

[Swifteye]

Maybe its because I work around a large number of kids and teens with a criminal record and conduct disorder, but I don't see what the hell is annoying about Skyrim's kids.

I played hide-and-seek with a little girl in Whiterun yesterday. Though she did cheat and counted too fast when I went to hide. But then again...so did I.

Maybe The Escapist just attracts an unusually large number of child haters.

I reckon I'd agree with you there. As a kid who grew up in classes filled with children with various cases of anger issues and disabilities I find it very bizarre just how negative the escapist community can be. I'm almost surprised yathzee even cares really. Yathzee's performance in his vids suggest his childhood was sapped away by bad video games and a cold family presence, so anything that is generally endearing to children makes him ill tempered and quick to bash.

But I guess that was all an act? I don't know I actually agree with him for the most part i'm just confused it's coming out of HIS mouth.

 

[Yopaz]

Well would you look at that. An undeniable case against the modders and (some) users of Skyrim and put together very, very well to come to a logical conclusion. Outstanding work Yahtzee. I look forward to seeing more Extra Punctuation like this. This is the material that I really like to see.

No it's not. There is no case against the modders because they're not doing anything wrong. What someone does in their game (A fictional setting where no one real is hurt) is their business. Why do you care? Making the setting more consistent by making everyone susceptible to the same threats as anyone else doesn't make the modders freaks.

Can you please take your worthless argument somewhere else? I will not discuss this matter because it is obvious you have grounded yourself permanently on one side of it. All I will say is that I never dismissed the modders (or users) as "bad people". I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

EDIT: Fixed.

Or maybe because you have no case. I suppose that would make it hard to argue.

I just think that the desire to kill them for no other reason than "They annoy me" is a sign of a mind that's messed up.

I've killed adults for less in GTA. I don't see how killing kids in a game is more "messed up" than killing an adult. They're both equally fake, and it's equally harmless killing them.

So explain the desire to kill children without using the word realism or immersion since my posts have covered that.

Because why not? Because a virtual child's "Life" has the same value as a virtual adult's "life" because it makes no sense for one group to be immune to the rules of the game 'just because'. And for all the other reasons listed by others above. Because Children shouldn't be dragon-proof, or be able to be witnesses to your crimes and you be able to do fuck all about it.

Because these smaller fake people mean no more or less to me than the taller fake people.

Read through the posts you have quoted. I agree that if a village gets massacred the kids should go with the rest of the people. I got nothing against killing off kids if it's relevant to what happens, nor do I got anything against Deus Ex permitting child murders. I don't say their lives are worth anything, I simply want to know why you desperately seem to want to kill kids in games.
As for your well worded response to my question. Why shouldn't developers let us kill children? I am not sure if you remember what happened when Manhunt 2 was about to hit the shelves a few years back. It was almost kept from being released and even when they got the permission they weren't sure if they dared to release it. That was a very violent game, but it did as far as I know not include the death of children. So the answer is, no developer wants to risk their game being banned in huge parts of the world. So including the ability to kill children might actually severely hurt the money they earn. It also hurts their political standing.

 

[tigermilk]

The euro aversion to child murdering goes back to the Fallout series.

I like to think our aversion to killing children predates computer games!

 

[The Cheshire]

I'm playing my game in a console, but I would absolutely get the child killing mod for Skyrim. Why? Because Bethesda children are fucking annoying and slaying them is fun. And the girl in Modern Warfare 3, I actually snickered when she died. What, am I an asshole? No, she totally deserved it, "look mummy, birdies, hahahaha"...what a little ****! No real child acts like that.

In real life I am a teacher, I teach children and I love them. In fact, I like children so much I don't even have the thought of slapping them when they are annoying. Repeat, I don't even have the fantasy of slapping a child when he's being a screamin' little annoying brat. In fact, I don't even get angry, I just fake anger when I need them to behave.

But Bethesda children? Creepy little fucks they are.

 

[Frost27]

(As for the killing of kids, I think an acceptable compromise would be to link each child to an adult NPC. If the adult is killed, the child simply fades out. This way, the "whole village" is killed, but there is no need to depict dead kids -- what, are you going to loot them? -- and no need to empower the player to kill them.)

As long as afterward, the child teleports to the Riften Orphanage so I can stop in and watch Grelod the Kind flog them and tell them they will die alone etc. whenever I want.

 

[Polite Sage]

I agree with Yahtzee's point for most part and don't use the child killing mod myself, but his comparison of child killing / sex boils down to

hurr durr killing is evil, BUT any sex crime is even more evil! ooh, taboo sex

and thats pretty much how it's presented it in our media too (both fictional and real cases). A serial killer can still be symphatetic, but a sex offender is always decipted as a vile creature with no redeeming values.

 

[Aureliano]

I feel like Yahtzee has already answered his own question on this one (even if he tries to deny it by saying it doesn't fit in the story). I quote:

"Most gamers are dickheads and if you give them any kind of freedom, their first instinct will be to abuse it. If you give them guns, they will shoot old ladies. If you give them cars, they will run over old ladies. If you give them aircraft, they will ascend to the highest possible heights and hurl themselves out onto an old lady. And if you give them customizable outfits, their first instinct will be to take off their clothes and run around the streets hip thrusting in the faces of old ladies. If you try to stop them doing all this, they'll hate you for it."

Mod tools, one of the more permissive modding communities out there and a little barrier of 'no you can't' is just about all it takes. It doesn't detract from the fact that child killing is horrible, but you did after all explain to us that gamers are dickheads. Dickheads like horrible things and to roleplay doing horrible things.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

I'm SoS, and I approve this message and didn't thank God for Thanksgiving.

 

[Zeroththeking]

Speaking as the one who created the comment that Yahtzee quoted (in the first page) he completely missed the point of what I meant. And due to this, the proof that he had towards his case with my quote dies along with the rest of his very uncharacteristic post. I said...
"Or they could have zoomed in on Makarov caging up a bunch of children "HoloCaust style" And using chemicals on them first. It would have made an ironic statement and it would have been quite the upgrade, since it wouldn't have been instant incineration, but slow torture."

In response to:
"The shocking moment is that a kid dies? This is probably going to reflect poorly on me, but I fail to see how a kid dying on camera is a bigger deal than a nuke going off in the middle of a populated city. How many kids died in the nuke blast in Call of Duty 4? Hell, how many kids were in Paris when it got blown up in Battlefield 3? Activision should have listened to Yahtzee and made the shocking moment a puppy being stomped to death by a holocaust denier."

As much as I like Yahtzee, he didn't understand (apparently) that I was being sarcastic that the "Shock Factor" that Modern Warfare 3 should have been upgraded, since Modern Warfare 2's mission "No Russian" was a level created for the negative press. Now I agree that it was a part of the story, the company didn't have to allow you to kill the civilians. In the American version of the game, you could kill as many as you desired (And I did it... I killed nearly all of them). So I merely suggested an "Upgrade" as far as controversy goes. So unfortunately, Yahtzee's argument not only died with the "child fucking equals murder" concept, but with his own quote.

 

[Yopaz]

Well would you look at that. An undeniable case against the modders and (some) users of Skyrim and put together very, very well to come to a logical conclusion. Outstanding work Yahtzee. I look forward to seeing more Extra Punctuation like this. This is the material that I really like to see.

No it's not. There is no case against the modders because they're not doing anything wrong. What someone does in their game (A fictional setting where no one real is hurt) is their business. Why do you care? Making the setting more consistent by making everyone susceptible to the same threats as anyone else doesn't make the modders freaks.

Can you please take your worthless argument somewhere else? I will not discuss this matter because it is obvious you have grounded yourself permanently on one side of it. All I will say is that I never dismissed the modders (or users) as "bad people". I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

EDIT: Fixed.

Or maybe because you have no case. I suppose that would make it hard to argue.

I just think that the desire to kill them for no other reason than "They annoy me" is a sign of a mind that's messed up.

I've killed adults for less in GTA. I don't see how killing kids in a game is more "messed up" than killing an adult. They're both equally fake, and it's equally harmless killing them.

So explain the desire to kill children without using the word realism or immersion since my posts have covered that.

Because why not? Because a virtual child's "Life" has the same value as a virtual adult's "life" because it makes no sense for one group to be immune to the rules of the game 'just because'. And for all the other reasons listed by others above. Because Children shouldn't be dragon-proof, or be able to be witnesses to your crimes and you be able to do fuck all about it.

Because these smaller fake people mean no more or less to me than the taller fake people.

Read through the posts you have quoted. I agree that if a village gets massacred the kids should go with the rest of the people. I got nothing against killing off kids if it's relevant to what happens, nor do I got anything against Deus Ex permitting child murders. I don't say their lives are worth anything, I simply want to know why you desperately seem to want to kill kids in games.
As for your well worded response to my question. Why shouldn't developers let us kill children? I am not sure if you remember what happened when Manhunt 2 was about to hit the shelves a few years back. It was almost kept from being released and even when they got the permission they weren't sure if they dared to release it. That was a very violent game, but it did as far as I know not include the death of children. So the answer is, no developer wants to risk their game being banned in huge parts of the world. So including the ability to kill children might actually severely hurt the money they earn. It also hurts their political standing.

So it's mostly a political/financial reason it's not included? Good. I'm completely fine with companies not wanting to risk their profits, but playing the morality card simply makes no sense to me.

I installed the mod so kids would be as vulnerable as everyone else. I don't think about the kids in this game much at all, since they're not important to pretty much any quest. But far be it from me to tell people how to play their game. If they want to kill (fake) kids in game they paid 60 bucks for, let them. There's nothing wrong with that.

And nudity was once an instant AO rating for games. Now we see it pop up pretty regularly. In game death of children will most likely go the same way.

After discussing this you made me realize that I really don't care about who I kill. So including kids in the next GTA games wouldn't make me care one way or the other. However I am not a big fan of open world RPG games such as Skyrim where I get the opportunity to kill anyone that aren't my enemy so none of my favourite games give me the chance to kill anyone I am not supposed to kill.
However the financial and political bullshit might make a few games flop, even though the taboo on nudity in media is quite big too. I could be wrong though, I am too young to remember if anyone mentioned that when Deus Ex rolled out. I still laugh at that video where a guy gives a kid a candy bar to get a password then kills the kid, steals back the candy bar and dumps the kid in the ocean.

 

[Ulquiorra4sama]

I don't own either MW3 or Skyrim so i guess my human faults are already on the table now, huh?

Personally i'm not much NPC killing unless they're a bunch of annoying tossers. In that i don't mean just some mean-spirited comments after YOU engage them in conversation, but some that actually follow you around and call you a weak, pathetic jackass (or play you music, or ask for money).

The comment about street performers and beggars in Assassin's Creed sparked this 'cause i never actually felt any desire to kill those who didn't bother me, and from what i've seen the NPCs of Bethesda games aren't very fond of movement so if i just moved out of their vocal range i would think my urge to kill would be fading.