Extra Punctuation: Why Regenerating Health Sucks
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
With a luck system does it regenerate at all? Regeneration of health is used because the problem with health bars would be getting a checkpoint with low health then being screwed on a game like CoD. It totally depends what type of game, regeneration is better for CoD.
Another point: Some games (e.g. Assassin's Creed) shouldn't use both medicine etc and regeneration for gaining health. Although having more armour = more health is a good idea I haven't seen other games use it.
Another point: Some games (e.g. Assassin's Creed) shouldn't use both medicine etc and regeneration for gaining health. Although having more armour = more health is a good idea I haven't seen other games use it.
I always felt the regeneration from... Well I can't actually remember which game, it might have been Medal of Honor Airborne. Anyway, you had 4-or-so "bars". Those bars worked so that when 1 was empty, the next would start to drain, and you wouldn't be dead until they were all empty. A shot to the torso would take 1 bar or so, to the head would be 3-4 bars, and arms and legs (non-criticals) would be 1/2 of a bar. Obviously something more elaborate in the form of hit-boxes could be made, just to give you an idea.
The thing is, a bar can ONLY be regenerated if there is some hp left in that bar (regardless of how little). When the bar is empty and a new one has started draining, that bar is lost. A way to remidy having to go around with 3/4 or HP all the time after your first confontration could be by bringing back the medic class (I'm obviously talking multi-player here, sorry for not mentioning that earlier), which has the unique ability of applying bandages, 1 bandage would bring back 1 bar at say 10%, and it would then regenerate itself to full. This could be done as many times as needed to get the full 4 bars.
In my opinion, this is by far the most sane system that the developers could be using at the moment, and I really wish they would as it would also allow us to carry more magazines again, now your killing ability must be limited by only letting you carry a few magazines (typically 2-4), which is very annoying in my opinion (especially for games that seek to be realistic, seeing as the average soldier would carry 8-12 magazines if not more).
EDIT:
The thing is, a bar can ONLY be regenerated if there is some hp left in that bar (regardless of how little). When the bar is empty and a new one has started draining, that bar is lost. A way to remidy having to go around with 3/4 or HP all the time after your first confontration could be by bringing back the medic class (I'm obviously talking multi-player here, sorry for not mentioning that earlier), which has the unique ability of applying bandages, 1 bandage would bring back 1 bar at say 10%, and it would then regenerate itself to full. This could be done as many times as needed to get the full 4 bars.
In my opinion, this is by far the most sane system that the developers could be using at the moment, and I really wish they would as it would also allow us to carry more magazines again, now your killing ability must be limited by only letting you carry a few magazines (typically 2-4), which is very annoying in my opinion (especially for games that seek to be realistic, seeing as the average soldier would carry 8-12 magazines if not more).
EDIT:
I guess this is sorta what I'm on about =3.DugMachine said:
I think a way to justify "Healing by Killing", especially for a fast-paced action game, is to have health represent some sort of "Strength/Resolve/Endurance through Self-Confidence and Spirit," since it's already established that no health system can be realistically implemented and fun at the same time.
It's also the most sensible from the abstract when the point of the game is kicking names and taking ass, because since losing health is punishing screwing up and failure, success and doing things right rewards you with more health.
I like an idea you didn't mention, but I thought of when reflecting on Halo's system: Give two health bars, either a "Health from Time/action" like the Walk it Off, Health-through-Murder, or Regeneration systems, and one "Recover-through-depletion", like immobile health packs, med-stations, and usable Healing Potions; or a "Easy, short-term recovery" and "Hard, long-term Recovery" system, like that seen in Left 4 Dead, with its pills and first-aid kits.
Even my favorite tabletop game, D&D, uses a Dual-health-bar system, with Standard Hit Points and Temporary Hit Points on top of those.
And: Halo 1 had a better system than Halo-Reach, by not extending the Shield bar to also include half the health bar.
It's also the most sensible from the abstract when the point of the game is kicking names and taking ass, because since losing health is punishing screwing up and failure, success and doing things right rewards you with more health.
I like an idea you didn't mention, but I thought of when reflecting on Halo's system: Give two health bars, either a "Health from Time/action" like the Walk it Off, Health-through-Murder, or Regeneration systems, and one "Recover-through-depletion", like immobile health packs, med-stations, and usable Healing Potions; or a "Easy, short-term recovery" and "Hard, long-term Recovery" system, like that seen in Left 4 Dead, with its pills and first-aid kits.
Even my favorite tabletop game, D&D, uses a Dual-health-bar system, with Standard Hit Points and Temporary Hit Points on top of those.
And: Halo 1 had a better system than Halo-Reach, by not extending the Shield bar to also include half the health bar.
I found from watching several playthroughs of Dues Ex, that I prefer their use of health. You can find FA kits, you can replenish at medical robots, and you can even get a augment that regens your health by consuming Bio-electrical energy. This probably wouldn't work in COD, of course, but still a decent system.
I agree that regenerating health alone is a pretty poor game mechanic; I don't think, however, that it is without its uses in a discerning design. For instance, I'm working with a triple-mode system in my own pet RPG/action-adventure project:
1. Regenerating health in order to allow you to fight each enemy on essentially even ground - this is, je pense, an important function to have, as it can keep you from getting truly stuck in a long string of fights.
2. Wounds system (think Dragon Age: Origins) to give some consequence to poor blocking/dodging/fighting skill. Wounds should matter, but not leave you completely ineffective.
3. Energy/food system to give you a resource to manage. Fighting, running, and doing things take energy; energy recharges slowly but drains your "stomach," which you must keep full by eating. If you're starving, you can't fight.
1. Regenerating health in order to allow you to fight each enemy on essentially even ground - this is, je pense, an important function to have, as it can keep you from getting truly stuck in a long string of fights.
2. Wounds system (think Dragon Age: Origins) to give some consequence to poor blocking/dodging/fighting skill. Wounds should matter, but not leave you completely ineffective.
3. Energy/food system to give you a resource to manage. Fighting, running, and doing things take energy; energy recharges slowly but drains your "stomach," which you must keep full by eating. If you're starving, you can't fight.
I liked Bioshock, where not only did you use health kits and stations to heal yourself, the enemy did, too. Well, at least the health stations. Until I sabotaged them. muhahaha!
I like the old school health bar & kits. Why fix something that's not broken? Dead Space does it pretty craftily, as it's a health monitor system resembling your spine, I rather liked that - it didn't detract from the game's immersion, but fit into it.
Don't like the regenerating health systems, I agree, they are less fun.
I like the old school health bar & kits. Why fix something that's not broken? Dead Space does it pretty craftily, as it's a health monitor system resembling your spine, I rather liked that - it didn't detract from the game's immersion, but fit into it.
Don't like the regenerating health systems, I agree, they are less fun.
It's not that odd. There's often times hate over opinions, and what people personally like. Someone tells someone that they are dumb for liking something, for example. That is wrong. Yahtzee likes a certain type of game: Games with hit point systems instead of regeneration. If that's your thing, more power to you. I will not criticize an individuals taste. However, Yahtzees tastes say absolutely nothing about the validity of regenerating health as a whole.Fronzel said:
I for example don't like peanut butter. I can say that I don't like peanut butter. But the fact that I don't like peanut butter means absolutely nothing to anyone else. If there was poop in a jar of peanut butter, I could say that, "This peanut butter is bad because it has poop in it". And I would have an excellent point about the peanut butters quality. If I just said that peanut butter is bad, im not adding anything to any meaningful discussion. In this article, Yahtzee isn't pointing to poop in the peanut butter, he is saying that peanut butter is gross.
The luck system would be great in a shooter. You're running from cover to cover while under fire, and the more you get shot at, the more likely you are to get killed.
I actually prefer regenerating health. I feel like a health bar takes me out of the experience, while regenerating health keeps the game flowing and moving forward. Nothing is less fun than getting blown away over and over just because you made a mistake 2 rooms back and there's no health kits nearby.
I'm not terribly fond of the instant-regen-at-end-of-combat in the Dragon Age series, personally. There's absolutely no incentive to try and push your party to the limit so that you're not taking massive damage during the fights, because you only have to make it to the end of THIS fight and everything's fine.
Contrast this with other games where you have to use potions or rest (although the resting mechanic has been mangled in some games to basically be a post-combat reset button, so it's little different from instant-fix) in order to restore lost health/mana/whatever. Taking a lot of damage in THIS fight can mean you'll be ill-equipped to handle THAT fight later on. So it's a lot more fun to look for strategies where you don't get hurt.
And the thing is--games that push you into "I must prevent myself from getting hurt" have a gameplay mechanic that actually increases immersion to a certain degree. Because all that damage you've been taking MEANS something. Some of the pain of combat gets communicated. It's not all completely detached.
Contrast this with other games where you have to use potions or rest (although the resting mechanic has been mangled in some games to basically be a post-combat reset button, so it's little different from instant-fix) in order to restore lost health/mana/whatever. Taking a lot of damage in THIS fight can mean you'll be ill-equipped to handle THAT fight later on. So it's a lot more fun to look for strategies where you don't get hurt.
And the thing is--games that push you into "I must prevent myself from getting hurt" have a gameplay mechanic that actually increases immersion to a certain degree. Because all that damage you've been taking MEANS something. Some of the pain of combat gets communicated. It's not all completely detached.
When I think about the games I played before regenerating health having health packs strewn all over a battlefield, I'm glad that we have this type of health recovery now. It's not realistic, but eventually we'll get there.
I think ideally you would either make a game where your character is armored up, the luck system that Yahtzee suggested, or a mix of recovery items, some health regeneration, and some sort of minigame where you or a medic character patches you up.
I think ideally you would either make a game where your character is armored up, the luck system that Yahtzee suggested, or a mix of recovery items, some health regeneration, and some sort of minigame where you or a medic character patches you up.
Been playing Fable III recently and feel the same - what was the problem with Fable II's food/potions? It even added a layer, food makes you fat (or thin in celeries case) but is cheaper and more common then potions.
Also the loss of the health bar has quite peeved me off.
Also the loss of the health bar has quite peeved me off.
Regenerating health by running around was (sorta) done in Giants: Citizens Kabuto, where Delphi recovers by immersing herself in deep water...and normally has to run round to avoid being shot, or swim way out. She can't use weapons or anything while in the water as well, it's one or the other.
It was actually pretty annoying, really, IMHO.
It was actually pretty annoying, really, IMHO.
Like Trilby: The Art of Theft? Or Super Meatboy? or...quite a few "Life" based games.Yahtzee Croshaw said:
Hidden and Dangerous and most of your vaunted "Stealth" games rely on you having to run like hell from a single dangerous encounter.
Yahtzee,
I can definately agree that regenerating health is overused, but I can see why so many developers use it. It's a cheap, easy way to keep the game moving at a good pace. Today's gamers are fickle, impatient people who don't want to spend even 30 seconds diverting from the path foreward to hunt for a health pack. And when they press on without the benefit of a full health bar they get gunned down over and over again leading to frustration and quitting the game. It's lazy, but unfortunately it pleases the low standards of Call of Duty players.
That said, I think you're absolutely right about tying to find new ways to restore a player's health. However, I believe a combination of systems would work as well. I know everyone likes to pick on Halo (for some reason), but I think Bungie had the most effective health system with the first game and thankfully brought it back with Reach. You have your shield, which will always regenerate as long as you're careful, and you're actual health that will immediately give away to one or two shots. You could say that is like any other shooter, but the difference is that you still need to hunt down health packs for maximum survivability. You still get that feeling of triumph after you visciously beat four brutes to death with an empty energy sword handle while your shield is broken, but never really feel like you HAVE to search for health packs in order to continue. It's still a good idea, but not required.
I can definately agree that regenerating health is overused, but I can see why so many developers use it. It's a cheap, easy way to keep the game moving at a good pace. Today's gamers are fickle, impatient people who don't want to spend even 30 seconds diverting from the path foreward to hunt for a health pack. And when they press on without the benefit of a full health bar they get gunned down over and over again leading to frustration and quitting the game. It's lazy, but unfortunately it pleases the low standards of Call of Duty players.
That said, I think you're absolutely right about tying to find new ways to restore a player's health. However, I believe a combination of systems would work as well. I know everyone likes to pick on Halo (for some reason), but I think Bungie had the most effective health system with the first game and thankfully brought it back with Reach. You have your shield, which will always regenerate as long as you're careful, and you're actual health that will immediately give away to one or two shots. You could say that is like any other shooter, but the difference is that you still need to hunt down health packs for maximum survivability. You still get that feeling of triumph after you visciously beat four brutes to death with an empty energy sword handle while your shield is broken, but never really feel like you HAVE to search for health packs in order to continue. It's still a good idea, but not required.
