'Walk it off'-healing actually sounds pretty interesting. Maybe make it so you absorb energy from your close environment so that you can't spin in a circle. It'd change how fights go since you'd have to keep moving to heal, but that also makes it easier for enemies to find you.
Extra Punctuation: Why Regenerating Health Sucks
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I think Yahtzee forgot "no regenerating health"
just get a decent sized health bar for the entire level and have it replenish when you're in the next level, until then your screwed. If I remember correctly that's what they did with the origional Goldeneye and I felt it was a good system
just get a decent sized health bar for the entire level and have it replenish when you're in the next level, until then your screwed. If I remember correctly that's what they did with the origional Goldeneye and I felt it was a good system
thereverend7 said:
This "Luck" system is nothing new. Brothers in Arms: Hells Highway uses it. It does give the Red Screen effect (not bloodspatter or so though, it's just red to show the threat you're in), but you can turn it off (and it's forced off on Realistic). Basicly, the more dark the red screen goes, the more likely it is that you're going to get hit by that one bullet with your name on it.FiendishFu12 said:
"Evidence": Check this video at 2:30-2:45 and 4:05-4:15
<youtube=tgOQ6uF47Mk>
It certainly is a nice system instead of the regenerating bullet-sponge health system.
I believe one of the best additions to gaming as a whole was regenerating health.
It allowed game designers to carefully craft epic battles as they knew how much life the player had when they faced each encounter, one of the reasons that the first Halo game revolutionised the First Person Shooter genre.
That said, in it's current form many people miss the old days of grabbing health packs, a "luck meter" in my opinion is exactly the same as a health meter, it's just like Duke Nukem Forever's "Ego meter" replacing the original health bar. In the end it's the same thing, just a re-branding.
One of the best ways of implementing regenerating health was Ninja Gaiden 2. They knew that their game was hard and so they could make much more challenging fights in the game, your health regenerated to a point after each major fight depending on your performance. To get back to full health you'd have to use consumable items to top it up.
Why not have something like that in an FPS? it stops the player from hiding behind walls to get their health back and they'd be forced to run around the battle field looking for a medipack or medic. It would mean that they'd have to fight their way out of each confrontation effectively so they could continue to the next area.
Personally I think that would be a much more effective solution.
It allowed game designers to carefully craft epic battles as they knew how much life the player had when they faced each encounter, one of the reasons that the first Halo game revolutionised the First Person Shooter genre.
That said, in it's current form many people miss the old days of grabbing health packs, a "luck meter" in my opinion is exactly the same as a health meter, it's just like Duke Nukem Forever's "Ego meter" replacing the original health bar. In the end it's the same thing, just a re-branding.
One of the best ways of implementing regenerating health was Ninja Gaiden 2. They knew that their game was hard and so they could make much more challenging fights in the game, your health regenerated to a point after each major fight depending on your performance. To get back to full health you'd have to use consumable items to top it up.
Why not have something like that in an FPS? it stops the player from hiding behind walls to get their health back and they'd be forced to run around the battle field looking for a medipack or medic. It would mean that they'd have to fight their way out of each confrontation effectively so they could continue to the next area.
Personally I think that would be a much more effective solution.
I think the best health bar I've seen was from Condemned 2. It regenerated, but it was divided into segments and you could only regenerate health within the segment you were on. If you wanted to restore lost segments of the health bar, then you had to use a med kit.
It made it so that if you just barely made it out of a fight alive, you'd still have a fighting chance against the next enemy you encounter, but you'd still be punished for taking so much damage, and you'd still have to scout around for med kits and manage your health.
It made it so that if you just barely made it out of a fight alive, you'd still have a fighting chance against the next enemy you encounter, but you'd still be punished for taking so much damage, and you'd still have to scout around for med kits and manage your health.
I could have told you the regenerating health was overrated and overused a LONG time ago, I miss Health packs and body armor
I always thought that the original Ghost Recon games were great about health. Your characters couldn't take more than a couple of bullets to the torso, and if you got shot in an extremity it'd affect you besides a health hit. Shot in the leg, you move more slowly. Shot in the arm, your aim is thrown off.
you know there are little pools of sparkly water everywhere that heal you forever without running out all through the end of half life, right? because i can imagine how that would have really sucked if those didn't exist, or, you know, you didn't know they were there.believer258 said:
Extra Credits did a good defence of regenerating health lately. Their point was that it allows you to string together the gameplay more effectively. That is, the devs always know how much health you'll have when you're in the fray (all of it) so every encounter has the desired impact. Is that a bad thing? Insofar as you're comparing it to the 'games allow you to create your own stories' philosophy, yes, it's bad, but I think the problem isn't so much that everyone is doing it but rather than everyone is doing it and forgetting you need to cramp up the difficulty.
Personally, I think Alan Wake did it well. Oh god, regenerating health in a horror game? Really? But since you don't have any green herbs to concern yourself with, when your health is dropping you're toast. Either win the fight already or get the fuck out. Or die, that's an outcome.
It's true though that it's a sign of larger laziness on devs, but it's not to be entirely dismissed.
Personally, I think Alan Wake did it well. Oh god, regenerating health in a horror game? Really? But since you don't have any green herbs to concern yourself with, when your health is dropping you're toast. Either win the fight already or get the fuck out. Or die, that's an outcome.
It's true though that it's a sign of larger laziness on devs, but it's not to be entirely dismissed.
Yeah I stand corrected by 2 people. I never played the BiA games so I wasn't aware of that. Was it done well?cke said:
Yaht, regenerating health means either the player can stand about bored or move on very carefully. Its designed to keep the action fluid and put the choice into the hands of the player as 'player choice' is key to making the game fun, you idiot.
You keep commenting on design principles you don't actually understand. These things exist for a purpose, not just cus some 'idiot' professional AAA developer whose job it is to intrinsically understand games had a brain fart.
I like your reviews, but I?m gaining the opinion that for all your acerbic and admittedly hilarious commentary, you don?t understand the systemic design behind the products you review.
You keep commenting on design principles you don't actually understand. These things exist for a purpose, not just cus some 'idiot' professional AAA developer whose job it is to intrinsically understand games had a brain fart.
I like your reviews, but I?m gaining the opinion that for all your acerbic and admittedly hilarious commentary, you don?t understand the systemic design behind the products you review.
As mentioned I love how Far Cry 2 did this, especially in MP Get critically wounded? You take care of the wound or die!
to the people complaining about reaching a checkpoint at low health with no healthpacks or whatever around... that's just poor game design. half lifes (all of them) knew to put a health station or a bunch of kits right before a fight where they knew you'd probably take a lot of damage, or right after a big fight. the devs don't need to "know" how much health you have before a fight, they just have to provide you the tools to make sure you have it.
this works especially well when you lose access to the charger when the big fight starts so you can't recharge to full mid-fight and trivialize the encounter. it's not difficult to manage the placement of health kits, so if you found yourself in that 1 health no kits can't go back situation blame the developers
that said, it's also possible that you're just playing poorly and if you stopped getting shot so much you wouldn't die. just saying
this works especially well when you lose access to the charger when the big fight starts so you can't recharge to full mid-fight and trivialize the encounter. it's not difficult to manage the placement of health kits, so if you found yourself in that 1 health no kits can't go back situation blame the developers
that said, it's also possible that you're just playing poorly and if you stopped getting shot so much you wouldn't die. just saying
You know, I'm rarely a person to do this kind of thing to people whom I consider actually know what they're talking about BUT: Wrong. Guess again.
Two main flaws in your reason:
Being punished for experimenting or having fun doesn't seem like a good mechanic does it? I can go through most games barely taking a hit, most of them I can go through barely using healthkits (I remember getting to the end of Max Payne and constantly full of painkillers). However that forces me to play defensively. To play it carefully, and safely... and what the fuck is the point? Honestly if I wanted to play "safe" I'd go outside. What the fuck is the fun in playing a game designed to let you do crazy shit... so you can be afraid of doing said crazy shit? It's like letting you drive a Ferrari that'll self-destruct if you go above 60...
That's one thing the original Assassin's Creed did better than ACII. Despite having to sit through a fucking 10 minute long speech every single fucking time I wanted to play the game, when I did, I never felt I was being punished for actually having fun and experimenting in the game.
There are few things more utterly rage inducing in a game than the feeling that you're suddenly screwed by a mistake you did 5 minutes ago... Or for not having the clairvoyance to know what you should expect before finding a new health pack/station/source. What's that, you didn't think you'd need more than 45 health 2 rooms ago? Well fuck you then, here are 10 elite soldiers. Either cower like a ************ or GG. What? You had the audacity of trying a different approach than cookie cutter safe approach? Ok then, here are your options: a) Reload your last saved game (IF you have one) and play it our way, or b) go suck nuts and bolts, and try to slog through to the next health source with low health!
If you're gonna punish someone for doing bad punish them WHEN they do bad. If they're not performing up to standard kill them and let them try again. Don't just let them push along for 10 minutes until they realize that they're suddenly fucked (extra fucked if they didn't keep a previous save). How much would you enjoy it if your mom walked into your house right now and slapped you across the head over something you did 20 years ago?
I honestly don't see why in the world you'd think this is "fun".
The other advantage of having regenerating health is that it lets the developers pitch more intense and harder encounters at the player, knowing that:
a) They can't simply press an item key or run over an item and instantly reset whatever damage they've taken. While you're in the fight, you're in the fight. You can't regen health while taking damage, so you have no way of recovering during an encounter. It's do or die.
b) They can punish the player as much as they want at the moment, knowing they can regen it for the next battle. There isn't a "wait, if we throw this shit in now, most of them will get stuck later".
Not much of a strategy involved in planning for something you don't know. The only strategy is "try to have as much health and ammo saved up as you can". Not exactly strategy...
Two main flaws in your reason:
This is absolutely right, which further confuses me on how you seem to ignore it for the remainder of the article.Yahtzee Croshaw said:
Being punished for experimenting or having fun doesn't seem like a good mechanic does it? I can go through most games barely taking a hit, most of them I can go through barely using healthkits (I remember getting to the end of Max Payne and constantly full of painkillers). However that forces me to play defensively. To play it carefully, and safely... and what the fuck is the point? Honestly if I wanted to play "safe" I'd go outside. What the fuck is the fun in playing a game designed to let you do crazy shit... so you can be afraid of doing said crazy shit? It's like letting you drive a Ferrari that'll self-destruct if you go above 60...
That's one thing the original Assassin's Creed did better than ACII. Despite having to sit through a fucking 10 minute long speech every single fucking time I wanted to play the game, when I did, I never felt I was being punished for actually having fun and experimenting in the game.
There are few things more utterly rage inducing in a game than the feeling that you're suddenly screwed by a mistake you did 5 minutes ago... Or for not having the clairvoyance to know what you should expect before finding a new health pack/station/source. What's that, you didn't think you'd need more than 45 health 2 rooms ago? Well fuck you then, here are 10 elite soldiers. Either cower like a ************ or GG. What? You had the audacity of trying a different approach than cookie cutter safe approach? Ok then, here are your options: a) Reload your last saved game (IF you have one) and play it our way, or b) go suck nuts and bolts, and try to slog through to the next health source with low health!
If you're gonna punish someone for doing bad punish them WHEN they do bad. If they're not performing up to standard kill them and let them try again. Don't just let them push along for 10 minutes until they realize that they're suddenly fucked (extra fucked if they didn't keep a previous save). How much would you enjoy it if your mom walked into your house right now and slapped you across the head over something you did 20 years ago?
I honestly don't see why in the world you'd think this is "fun".
The other advantage of having regenerating health is that it lets the developers pitch more intense and harder encounters at the player, knowing that:
a) They can't simply press an item key or run over an item and instantly reset whatever damage they've taken. While you're in the fight, you're in the fight. You can't regen health while taking damage, so you have no way of recovering during an encounter. It's do or die.
b) They can punish the player as much as they want at the moment, knowing they can regen it for the next battle. There isn't a "wait, if we throw this shit in now, most of them will get stuck later".
No. I just reloaded the scene and played it "safe mode" so I could go through mostly unharmed, so I could be sure not to get locked out of the rest of the game due to not having the clairvoyance of knowing I'd need more health up ahead.Yahtzee Croshaw said:
Not much of a strategy involved in planning for something you don't know. The only strategy is "try to have as much health and ammo saved up as you can". Not exactly strategy...
I agree with this completely. Halo 1 really did have the best health system and while it's not entirely realistic (as Yahtzee says, that's a BS argument anyway) it makes perfect sense within the game world.Scow2 said:
I like the luck idea. Brothers in Arms Hell's Highway already has something rather similar. You can only take one shot, then you're dead. Instead of health, the screen will turn red. The redder it gets, the closer you are to finally getting hit. Now if you want a REAL challenge, turn off the red screen and play the game on hard. No hint as to when you are about to be hit, so you better be good at covering fire.
I've always thought hank-n-slash games suffered from this too. Instead of constantly beating an enemy with a sword that can slice them in half in a cutscene, how about in the actual game you have to break their guard--as in the guard is their life bar. Once broken, one hit from the sword/spear/whatever, will kill the enemy.
I've always thought hank-n-slash games suffered from this too. Instead of constantly beating an enemy with a sword that can slice them in half in a cutscene, how about in the actual game you have to break their guard--as in the guard is their life bar. Once broken, one hit from the sword/spear/whatever, will kill the enemy.
I think health packs are fine for linear games, but for open world games like GTA, it gets really frustrating to have to go sleep off a wound or chow on a burger every so often. When you're on a linear path, you can guess at how much health a player will have at any point, but with sandbox games all players play differently. Some might be careful and take almost no damage in between missions, others like to drive like crazy and occasionally smash through a windshield. In the case of the reckless windshield smasher in GTA 4, he gets money taken from him for dieing, and in the case of GTA:SA and all other previous games, he also gets all his weapons taken away. I can't imagine playing Just Cause 2 without the partially regenerating health that it had, unless they made the health bar 5 times as long.