I liked the mixed health system in Mass Effect 1, and I was really dissapointed when it wasn't carried over to the sequel. Your first 'health' bar was your shields, which were pretty weak, but could regenerate. If you lost that, you started taking health damage, which could only me fixed by med-pack (well, medi-gel).
Extra Punctuation: Why Regenerating Health Sucks
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I completely disagree. For one thing, backtracking for 15 minutes only to find that health-pack you thought you is gone is an absolutely soul-crushing experience. Health Packs also seem to be an arbitrary "fun limit", where when I ran out of them, I might as well give the fuck up. With regen, you'll be fighting until your last breath, because it'll never be completely impossible.
Regeneration also allows for more complex level design, because developers no exactly how much health you have before each encounter.
Regeneration also allows for more complex level design, because developers no exactly how much health you have before each encounter.
We're mainly dealing with multiplayer shooters here, amirite?
A buncha people mentioned Far Cry 2(and Riddick, which I haven't played), wherein your health will regenerate up to a certain notch, but you gotta stop and use a healy if you want the whole thing back. That seems like a pretty good standard, but why have a standard?
Thing is, couldn't the devs just put multiple systems in the game, and whoever sets up the match chooses one?
"We're playing TDM on Charnel House with random-spawning Medkits-only, no regen."
"We're playing Infected Flaming Zombie Bubble Bath on Shitler's Sanctum with no life regen whatsoever, and no shotguns except the shitty one."
"We're playing Capture The Junk on Hooptie Palace with Farcry-2-Style-Regen, and up to 3 medikits per team in play at once (they respawn 10 seconds after use on a table in your team's base, but nowhere else.)"
..it wouldn't take that much extra effort, would it? Just configure each map to work with a variety of options/settings, like they already do. I haven't played Modern Warfare or any of the "big boys" of modern shootin', but Smash Brothers on Gamecube had a bajillion options you could configure before the match, and I know I've played shooters that did similar things (I think it mighta been Timesplitters or Metal Gear Online?)
A buncha people mentioned Far Cry 2(and Riddick, which I haven't played), wherein your health will regenerate up to a certain notch, but you gotta stop and use a healy if you want the whole thing back. That seems like a pretty good standard, but why have a standard?
Thing is, couldn't the devs just put multiple systems in the game, and whoever sets up the match chooses one?
"We're playing TDM on Charnel House with random-spawning Medkits-only, no regen."
"We're playing Infected Flaming Zombie Bubble Bath on Shitler's Sanctum with no life regen whatsoever, and no shotguns except the shitty one."
"We're playing Capture The Junk on Hooptie Palace with Farcry-2-Style-Regen, and up to 3 medikits per team in play at once (they respawn 10 seconds after use on a table in your team's base, but nowhere else.)"
..it wouldn't take that much extra effort, would it? Just configure each map to work with a variety of options/settings, like they already do. I haven't played Modern Warfare or any of the "big boys" of modern shootin', but Smash Brothers on Gamecube had a bajillion options you could configure before the match, and I know I've played shooters that did similar things (I think it mighta been Timesplitters or Metal Gear Online?)
Half Life changed my view on regenerating health. I now think it's a good thing.
The problem with HL is that it has 90s health mechanics and 00s damage. It's not like Doom, where you can reasonably expect to take a fair number of hits before you go down. Most of the enemies in HL can chop of half your health bar in a second or two, and that just forces you into trial and error gameplay and quicksaving after every fight. I find the gunfights in STALKER: SoC less frustrating than those in HL.
Trying to get to the next health station on low health is fun, occassionally. Struggling through the entire bloody game on half health because ridiculous damage can (and will) be done by a single burst of enemy gunfire - not fun.
The problem with HL is that it has 90s health mechanics and 00s damage. It's not like Doom, where you can reasonably expect to take a fair number of hits before you go down. Most of the enemies in HL can chop of half your health bar in a second or two, and that just forces you into trial and error gameplay and quicksaving after every fight. I find the gunfights in STALKER: SoC less frustrating than those in HL.
Trying to get to the next health station on low health is fun, occassionally. Struggling through the entire bloody game on half health because ridiculous damage can (and will) be done by a single burst of enemy gunfire - not fun.
The first time I played Fallout 3, I felt like it did a really good job of making health matter, at least in the early hours of the game. I found myself relying heavily on irradiated water to heal myself, knowing that there would be hell to pay down the line from the radiation sickness, but needing to stay alive in the interim.
Unfortunately, once you get some money and enough stimpacks (and access to a bed), it ceases to be an issue. I keep meaning to play through New Vegas on hardcore mode to see if it can manage to sustain the same feel.
Unfortunately, once you get some money and enough stimpacks (and access to a bed), it ceases to be an issue. I keep meaning to play through New Vegas on hardcore mode to see if it can manage to sustain the same feel.
I thought of another system, though it could really only work for a ninja-ish game. When mr. Ninja gets hit, he has to make a button command to see if he lands on his feet. It's sort of like the sonic system because the amount of health you lose is based on your environment (ex. weather you have to land on astroturf, or the ends of chopsticks) and how good you are at the game.
While you would also have to implement some other system to decide how you actually gain health, It does allow the charecter to take a realistic amount of health when he lands incorrectly. Also, when mr. ninja gets hit in a vital area, that body part (ex. skull and brain) would fly in chunks and you would have to actually reassemble it using ninja magic or something, making it very hard, but possible to avoid death if you say, get sniped in the head.
While you would also have to implement some other system to decide how you actually gain health, It does allow the charecter to take a realistic amount of health when he lands incorrectly. Also, when mr. ninja gets hit in a vital area, that body part (ex. skull and brain) would fly in chunks and you would have to actually reassemble it using ninja magic or something, making it very hard, but possible to avoid death if you say, get sniped in the head.
I know I'll be a little late to the party, and the informed brigade will have been and gone, but to anyone who is ragging on Halo for having introduced the health regeneration mechanic.
This is not true. Firstly, Halo 1 didn't feature it, but had a quite interesting dual system with a regenerating shield and health bar. It's probably my favourite system I've found, because it provides a gameplay justification for why you have regenerating health, and you still have to scout for med packs in the hairier sections. Although I think it could have been improved by some sort of counting method that if your shields get knocked to zero too often then the generator overcharges or something and you don't get any more shields until you finish. (or something)
I liked health meters in games, and I wish they could come back. Not quite as 'run over a med kit and boom you're all healed' as they used to be, but maybe something like the Left 4 Dead system, where you had to actually take a minute to heal.
This is not true. Firstly, Halo 1 didn't feature it, but had a quite interesting dual system with a regenerating shield and health bar. It's probably my favourite system I've found, because it provides a gameplay justification for why you have regenerating health, and you still have to scout for med packs in the hairier sections. Although I think it could have been improved by some sort of counting method that if your shields get knocked to zero too often then the generator overcharges or something and you don't get any more shields until you finish. (or something)
I liked health meters in games, and I wish they could come back. Not quite as 'run over a med kit and boom you're all healed' as they used to be, but maybe something like the Left 4 Dead system, where you had to actually take a minute to heal.
I think I like the Luck system. It makes sense. However I don't think all regeneration is bad. I enjoy and evening of NWN2 and have spent a lot of time searching for a Ring of Power which regenerates health. This kind of regen is earned. and I think it enriches the game by making you really want it.
The screen went red at the edges the more you exposed yourself and the more people were shooting at you. Then you'd get hit, your controller would vibrate a bit and you'd die.thereverend7 said:
It's nothing special, really. Just adds a pinch of realism.
You can check it out on YouTube if you're interested.
I have had a thought for a system which may improve Health in games.
Instead of a health bar or regen health, you could have a little graphic in the corner of the screen displaying your 'vitals'. This would literally be a heart monitor that glows green and pulses steadily when you are in good health. When you are wounded badly the graphic could turn red (as a substitute for 'bloody screen'), your movements and aiming may become more sluggish, and you could see your heart rate become more erratic, (if you die you could even see yourself flatline before the screen blacks out.) Once you've killed all enemies in the area your vitals will stabilize (you return to full movement and heart rate steadies), but the graphic will remain red untill you fully heal yourself via a medkit or whatever (also, instead of just walking over a medkit you could actually see your character give themselves a shot of adrenaline in the leg).
I know this still wouldn't be completely realistic, but it would be a hell of a lot more immersive than health bars/regen at least.
Instead of a health bar or regen health, you could have a little graphic in the corner of the screen displaying your 'vitals'. This would literally be a heart monitor that glows green and pulses steadily when you are in good health. When you are wounded badly the graphic could turn red (as a substitute for 'bloody screen'), your movements and aiming may become more sluggish, and you could see your heart rate become more erratic, (if you die you could even see yourself flatline before the screen blacks out.) Once you've killed all enemies in the area your vitals will stabilize (you return to full movement and heart rate steadies), but the graphic will remain red untill you fully heal yourself via a medkit or whatever (also, instead of just walking over a medkit you could actually see your character give themselves a shot of adrenaline in the leg).
I know this still wouldn't be completely realistic, but it would be a hell of a lot more immersive than health bars/regen at least.
I agree with Yahtzee with this. I just played Bulletstorm with hardest difficulty and only time I had problems were when I was riding that train thingy and I couldn't get to cover to recover my health. Other part was when I was on helicopter and the helicopter didn't have healt renegation system, only health bar so I needed to come up with a plan how I'm going to pull off that event.
What I am saying is regenerating health is easy mode for every game that has it, just 2 seconds on open and go hide again. Sure that tactic takes time to complete level but it's easy in any game to do so. Like Yahtzee said, when you have health that doesn't regenerate until you find health pack you need to collect, it makes you think how to proceed with next encounter. Thought like Doom 2, the game I grew up with, you had quick save that made it bit easier but still.
Last thing that I had notice with Call of Duty games, atleast MW2 and Black Ops, You can't just camp and kill dudes or they come forever. You need to move foward all the time to stop them coming, so they kind of balanced it out with eternal spawn of enemies if you don't move on, I mean balanced regenerating healing thing, but in the end it got boring. There weren't really tactics in it when I played those games, just killed few dudes, rushed to next cover and hoped for autosave or that the enemys stoped to respawn at that place.
So I would like to see games with 100% health system that doesn't regenrate automatically, you need to work for your health and survival. It's hard game but I like challenge in my games.
What I am saying is regenerating health is easy mode for every game that has it, just 2 seconds on open and go hide again. Sure that tactic takes time to complete level but it's easy in any game to do so. Like Yahtzee said, when you have health that doesn't regenerate until you find health pack you need to collect, it makes you think how to proceed with next encounter. Thought like Doom 2, the game I grew up with, you had quick save that made it bit easier but still.
Last thing that I had notice with Call of Duty games, atleast MW2 and Black Ops, You can't just camp and kill dudes or they come forever. You need to move foward all the time to stop them coming, so they kind of balanced it out with eternal spawn of enemies if you don't move on, I mean balanced regenerating healing thing, but in the end it got boring. There weren't really tactics in it when I played those games, just killed few dudes, rushed to next cover and hoped for autosave or that the enemys stoped to respawn at that place.
So I would like to see games with 100% health system that doesn't regenrate automatically, you need to work for your health and survival. It's hard game but I like challenge in my games.
One of the best combinations of the Regen/meter systems I've ever sen has got to be either Halo 1 or Metroid Other M.
Before you I get torn apart by that (hardly seems likely since we're on page 4) Other M's system would probably only work for a high-powered space marine in power armour, but this is the BEST application of a "Saftey net" (so to speak) in terms of player health.
For those that don't know. Other M would allow you to recharge 99 units of health if your energy was at 0 (the same way you recharge missiles). It does force you to run and hide, but it A) doesn't bring you back to full health. B) makes sense from a technical standpoint. If the armour malfunctions, you're still alive, your armour is just toast. Don't get hit again! C) still gives you a fighting chance when the going gets tough or it gets the that point where you're killed by "the last baddie in the room" and have to start from your last save/encounter/whatever.
Anyways this is a couple examples of many. I don't have THAT big of problem regenerative health per-se, but I do believe that it's kind of a plague in the industry right now, and I do believe that it is in many ways inferior to meters.
A game where regen health works 100% brilliantly, Portal.
Before you I get torn apart by that (hardly seems likely since we're on page 4) Other M's system would probably only work for a high-powered space marine in power armour, but this is the BEST application of a "Saftey net" (so to speak) in terms of player health.
For those that don't know. Other M would allow you to recharge 99 units of health if your energy was at 0 (the same way you recharge missiles). It does force you to run and hide, but it A) doesn't bring you back to full health. B) makes sense from a technical standpoint. If the armour malfunctions, you're still alive, your armour is just toast. Don't get hit again! C) still gives you a fighting chance when the going gets tough or it gets the that point where you're killed by "the last baddie in the room" and have to start from your last save/encounter/whatever.
Anyways this is a couple examples of many. I don't have THAT big of problem regenerative health per-se, but I do believe that it's kind of a plague in the industry right now, and I do believe that it is in many ways inferior to meters.
A game where regen health works 100% brilliantly, Portal.
I liked the Just Cause 2 approach--you take permanent damage if you get hit by powerful weapons, and you take temporary damage if it's light weapons that you can run away from. Yeah, it cheats a bit, but if you've taken permanent damage, then you're SOL until you can chance across a health kit, which are one-time use per life, and they are only in so many places.
And glad to see Infamous and Prototype got a word in edgewise on this one--they come to mind when he discussed the problems with regenerating health. And, if memory serves, the first Halo had a separate shield and health system, where your shield would regenerate, but health required a pickup to recover.
And glad to see Infamous and Prototype got a word in edgewise on this one--they come to mind when he discussed the problems with regenerating health. And, if memory serves, the first Halo had a separate shield and health system, where your shield would regenerate, but health required a pickup to recover.
What about if your ability to heal was inversely linked to your ability to fight?
So you have a fixed amount of health, and 'fatigue'. You lose some health, and the only way to heal is to sacrifice fighting effectiveness (and thereby gain fatigue), until you become weak and need to rest so you'll be fighting fit again (and replenish your fatigue).
This system worked best when I was thinking of a game where you use food-based weapons, like a burger bar or a kebab-bomb (ke-bomb) or a fish stick and so on...
So you have a fixed amount of health, and 'fatigue'. You lose some health, and the only way to heal is to sacrifice fighting effectiveness (and thereby gain fatigue), until you become weak and need to rest so you'll be fighting fit again (and replenish your fatigue).
This system worked best when I was thinking of a game where you use food-based weapons, like a burger bar or a kebab-bomb (ke-bomb) or a fish stick and so on...
I disagree, and I unfortunately do not have time at the moment to go in depth but I think your complaint is not about the re-genning health, but about how it's most often used (much like any concept). Considering in half your examples you only fight 1-4 Enemies at a time, usually dispatched in what, a shot or two? And anytime there's a boss fight or large number of baddies coming up you conveniently find a big pile of health and armor. Thus achieving the very thing you don't apparently like. Go play DOOM or HL again and see how easy it is now.
Bhaalspawn said:
Irridium said:Ironic Pirate said:
Granted thats not entirely fair. Occasionally there's a box-shaped room with a maze of crates, but not usually.
Shit, when I said level design, I meant in terms of set-pieces and things of that nature. Also, most games back then had just as simple level design and you know it.