Extra Punctuation: Why Regenerating Health Sucks

[Mstrswrd]

Extra Punctuation: Why Regenerating Health Sucks

Yahtzee thinks waiting a few seconds to be at full health is bad.

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It's weird that this is the subject this week, because I was actually curious as to what you think would be better than Regen Health or the standard "This is a number that represents your health. It hit's 0, you die" kind of health.

A more pertinent question I have is what do you think of a combination of Standard Health + Regenerating Shield of some sort, as seen in Halo 1, X-Men Origins: Wolverine, Halo Reach, both Gungrave games, and probably a few more I don't know.

I know that, personally, it actually made my gaming experience better (in Gungrave and X-Men), because it still made me weary of taking to many shots, as I could die easily enough, but it also made me willing to go tae a few hits, because, hey, my external shield will take it, and it recharges, but can only take a small amount of abuse, so be quick about it.

 

[dantric]

I dunno that regenerative health needs to be done away with. We need look at the game. Most Action/Adventure, Hack n' Slash, like God of War but, Assassins Creed, Riddick, games all have health bars that require, pots, medkits, fonts, magic etc to heal. Cool...The "problem" lies in FPS's (oh and Gears of War...odd) specifically (in my experience) and I think it's all about how the developer wants you to feel in the game.

Having a regenerating health system allows you to move from encounter to encounter full health. The idea is you get full immersed in the experience, because you arent worrying about where the health packs are, or how much space your inventory has. You take your 2 or 3 guns. Find a wall to hide behind, blow everything away...rest up and go to the next encounter. If that is the "design of the game" - meaning the developers want you to feel fast paced action and not worry about health, then i think the regenerative health system is great and the flaw isn't so much with the system but rather that the encounters suck, aren't action packed enough etc.

Games like Far Cry, old school DOOM, Dead Space 1 and 2, the use of med packs, reflecting on the current state of games, is now used as a atmospheric device....does that make sense?

What I mean is, hunting for and acquiring health packs, or purchasing them, managing inventory space is now more about creating a certain...feel, to the game. It can create tension, make you take your time through a level or encounter, learn strategies to beat your foes, (of course the "see that part thats flashing, stands out or the game is telling you to shoot" deprives us of that strategy but whatever) adds a little something to the game.

With the current games being released now I think we need to view the system not as a mechanic of all games, but how it's used in a specific game and does it pull it off well. Does the regenerating health system add more excitement to the gameplay? Do you get to the next encounter and feel like it mattered that you could regen health?

If you don't like games that use a health regeneration system, it might be time to start thinking about health regen as a bias instead of a fad. If it has health regen maybe not play the game?

It can be done really well...imo CoD:MW did it well, Resistance 2...not so well. Resistance with blocks of health that regenerated and health packs to fill up depleted blocks...personally, i thought was inspired.

Main point...I think it depends on what the dev's want you to "feel" while playing. Tension = inventory and med packs etc. "Easy" Play through but exciting encounters = health regen. Also i think Multiplayer benefits more from regen.

 

[LadyMint]

Oldschool health systems did add a lot more challenge to a game. Recently, my brother and I have been doing "classic game nights" where we break out some oldschool game and try to get through it. One of the latest ones we tried was Streets of Rage 2 for the Sega Genesis. It was so thrilling having those moments where a group of enemies would beat you down to a sliver of health and your partner would have to do everything in their power to defend you from harm until you could make it to a Turkey a la Garbage Can to fill your meter back up. Games like that trained you not to be so reckless since health wasn't always forthcoming.

I also liked the Sonic the Hedgehog and classic Super Mario health handlings. Having to fetch back all your rings after taking a hit to the chin was insane--You'd almost never get them all back if you managed to get more than twenty. Then with Tiny Mario, you just felt the pressure to survive in hopes of seeing another mushroom somewhere down the road.

Of course, they were nothing like the Contra games that prettymuch said, "Screw health. If you get touched you die." Although I guess they fall under the category of games that use lives as health instead, since you started right back where you fell until you had no more lives left.

I'm gettin' those nostalgia pangs again...

 

[KDR_11k]

I think it depends on the game design. E.g. the Last Stand mode in Dawn of War 2 has regenerating health but it's not based on staying out of trouble and it's not fast, you constantly regenerate and some builds boost their health regeneration to a level where it's hard for enemies to deal damage faster than it heals but it also means that when you're wounded you stay wounded for a while. Of course that mode doesn't allow you to just sit in place before moving to the next encounter so you don't get the usual full health reset other games give you.

 

[SenorNemo]

The Jedi Knight series had a great system for health.

If Lightsaber: face your opponent and things won't hit you

If Gun: Switch to the lightsaber you suicidal moron

Heh, I remember that. Don't forget the level 3 heal power either. Or bacta tanks in JKII. For that matter, lightsaber+heal+grip+lighting=godhood. Fun times. Well, except for some of the more...erm...poorly thought out levels in JKII, but that's what noclip is for.

But on topic, I think regenerating health has it's uses, but the points Yahtzee brings up are valid. Then again, I don't like the healthpack system much either. I used to be a proponent of the luck idea, but it seems kind of contrived, or maybe that's just me not being used to it. Come to think of it, none of the systems work perfectly purely on their own; I think the best health systems are hybrids.

Here's a bad idea: if the applied phlebotinum that makes the healing system works is nanotechnology, and health regenerates at different rates based on the quality of the air/soil/whatever you're standing near. This could open the way to various denial of regeneration attacks and tactics, and give another tactical consideration to the player. Or it could fail miserably. Either way.

 

[Advancedcaveman]

I like the health system in Sin Episodes. It has regular health pickups and stations, but you can refill empty health stations with special items. Certain health items also explode into a healing mist when shot or blown up. The mist hangs around for a limited period of time and regenerates your health when you're standing in it. Conversely, the mist does damage to certain types of enemies when they get in it. There's also a non-healing mist that makes enemies stronger while damaging you (it may have caused a bullet time effect rather than damaging you though, I can't remember). Again, it is created when certain items are destroyed, and it hangs around for a limited amount of time.

I've always thought it might be interesting to have an old-school shooter where there's a struggle between the player and the enemies for the same health/ammo resources in the environment or there are reactive heal/hurt materials like in Sin Episodes. But then of course we're stuck with the same "slowly walk down this linear, cluttered hallway and press the use button to put explosives on the scripted thing while noisy in-engine cinematics occur in the skybox outside the level" shooters over and over and over again. We can't have real level design or gameplay ideas anymore because people are shit eaters.

 

[Rivers Wells]

I wonder if a combination of a fighting games health regeneration system would work with a "Health Gathering" system in a different stle of game?

What if you took high damage at 100% health, health represented by a green bar, and it lowered you to 70%. However, there was still (on your little bar display of health, or however its done) a thin red line up to 80% that could be regenerated over time.

Essentially, you could regenerate up to 80%, but that's it. The remaining 20% after regenerating would have to be done with a health pack/station/etc. The idea being you maintain tension (and sine you're not sitting around waiting, pacing) between fights but don't punish the player too severely. You're forcing the player to be attentive to what they're doing instead of just running in guns blazing while not sacrificing the fun.

Please let me know if this has been done before, just crossed my mind on reading this.

EDIT: Just realized. Fallout 3 did kind of do this with the injury to certain body parts system as did MGS 3. Still like the idea though.

Also, the "Luck System" is something me and friends have passed around for years. I love the idea myself and there's a ton of creative ways to exploit it.

 

[Moeez]

What about leaning on walls for health in The Getaway?

 

[HaraDaya]

Far Cry 2 had the best healing system: get shot, pull that motherfuckin bullet out. You only had to do it when you're health was really low too.

Seconded.
One of the most immersive health system even though not that realistic.
But I would suggest the block health system.

Thirded. Though I would've liked if they had gone more survivalist with it. Healing with an ampoule would only give you temporary health ala L4D. To completely heal you'd have to perform first aid for each block lost. Which takes a lot longer, so you couldn't afford to do a full heal in a gunfight, unless the AI gets stuck or something. Exploitable.

 

[HentMas]

depending on the game i can agree, but on online gameplay i disagree, i much prefer each encounter between enemies and myself to have equal health for equal opportunity, when i kill someone in a game without regenerating health all it takes is someone to go around the corner and they have me dead probably 95% of the time, they have to be extremely bad for that not to happen, in which this process just keeps continuing until either someone has the OP weapons and are in an OP spot in the level, or someone is just that good compared to the really bad people in the room.

i dont know, i play MW2 with my friends at home and i had to put "hardcore mode" on because they died a LOT when playing with health, they cant aim for S#!T, and i always was lucky enough to get the headshot they complained "man wtf, i had you, i shot you like 2 F$%(!ng times and you didnt died... yeah, they shot my foot...

that gave them a fighting chanse, but it was kind of dumb that the whole game became a "i see you first you die" and everyone started to camp...

i had to change strategies, grenades now were a sure kill, a shot in the foot killed them, damn, it became harder, because i was used to the health regenerating, but i learned to play this way

and then i tryed to play online... there is no "hardcore" in the first levels, immagine how that went?? i had learned to shoot and forget, and i had to unlearn that fast, go and shoot and make him stay on the floor.

i guess there is strategy for both kinds of games... but in the hardcore one, the "luck" is a more important factor.

 

[michael87cn]

Bullshit. Entitled to your opinion sure, but frankly, Yahtzee is just plain wrong here. Regenerating health is a great idea. It resets every challenge, giving a fresh perspective each time. No artificially difficult sections where you have extra low health, no resource management to distract you from the action at hand. There are PLENTY of other ways to add narrative continuity besides a big red bar. Not every game should have regenerating health: Games like Half Life, Dead Space, etc get a good deal of improved pacing and tension from a health system. But honestly, I can't name a game with regenerating health that should have used hit points, or vise versa. For all the design mistakes out there, the health system choice is not one of them. Maybe video games just need more games that have a slower pace, and less focus on manic action. Maybe we need less games that benefit more from regeneration. But that's a completely different aissue. Regenerating health is here to stay. And you know what? Regenerating health may not be realistic, but it FEELS more realistic. Because if you don't die, you can simply assume that whatever happened was an ignorable flesh wound. That feels a lot more reasonable then getting shot in the face, being fine, then dying from a paper cut.

Bullshit? Hardly.. I see regenerating health as boring as turning on God mode. Let's look at Call of Duty as an example. You can die very fast, but you heal very fast. It's very easy to become punished by the game, but also very easy to finish the game without any real challenge( when it comes to shooting at things atleast ). Basically, as long as you don't run out into the open like an idiot, you'll NEVER DIE. To make the game the slightest bit challenging... ENEMIES NEVER MISS. Pop your head out for a second? TATATTAT BAMBAMBAM you've been sighted with terminator like efficiency and shot at before a single second can tick by. BUT, all you need to do to survive is make pop-shots or throw grenades over cover and slowly, oh so very very slowly crawl from cover spot to cover spot to finish a mission..

Shooters have DIED. They've become military training simulators, and that's great if you're gung ho about the military, but what about those of us that want to play a good old fashioned shooter? At least in Halo 1 it was just a weak shield that regenerated, that was cool because you still had to manage your health blocks and it gave you a little freedom to make some mistakes. Now a days you can't make mistakes or you get the dreaded game over screen, you can't go in guns blazing and just enjoy blasting everyone around you away while managing your health, and you can't play a game in a different way. It's always the same game of ducking behind cover, making a popshot/burst fire then duck back and heal up , twiddle your thumbs, go bake a cake, etc come back and move to the next cover; oh look a quick time event killed you because you were so BORED you weren't expecting something crazy to happen.

 

[CrawlingPastaHellion]

Yeah, Bulletstorm sucked so much... Where was I? Health regen, right. It sucks too, muahaha.

But seriously, Bulletstorm is just broken easy. You could slide in any direction for like a mile at a time, and redo that at will, all whilst your hp was regenerating. Near the end of the game I mastered that "technique", so that nothing could do me any harm at all. I was playing at hard and I died about 8 times, and that was before I learned that ridiculous trick.

It's just a bad, bad? Bad! Bad... Game...

 

[Nomanslander]

I don't know, personally I always liked the health system from the first Resistance game. Segmented regenerating health, if you lost a segment you had to get a health pack to store yourself. Of course with Resistance 2 they gave into the full regen, but then again I don't have the problem Yahtzee does with the whole thing.

=/

 

[Dastardly]

Extra Punctuation: Why Regenerating Health Sucks

Yahtzee thinks waiting a few seconds to be at full health is bad.

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The "luck" system is used pretty commonly in tabletop games to explain why a character can "survive" being hit with a bastard sword in the damned head. Your "hit points" actually represent your ability to avoid attacks, and successful attacks whittle away at that ability until you can be hit. Your "wound points" then take over to indicate how much physical damage you've received, and armor mitigates some of that.

On paper, it can be a mess... but in a game? So much easier to just keep that math behind the scenes. The problem? People like immediate feedback.

The animation shows a spurt of blood, and the sound effect says, "Oof!" You've been hit, and you know it. People like that little Pavlovian dinner bell that tells them it's time for their favorite endorphins.

I'm a fan of systems in which taking damage makes you less capable, so that you will have to devote your attention to either a) escape, or b) a race to finish off the opponent before he finishes you. You have to make in-the-moment tactical decisions, which only get more critical as you progress. But, as you've indicated, this can lead to the "downward spiral" in which the player is constantly asked to do more with less, and may end up frustrated... or just reloading every time they get scratched by the corner of a table or looked at funny.

Regardless, the key to any health management system is scarcity. Maybe it's time that's short... maybe it's inventory space... maybe it's the number of consumables. Either way, the player has to feel the pinch somewhere--the sense that the failure state is rapidly approaching, or is just around the corner.

Time-regenerative health works against that in multiple ways. For one, you never run out of anything. It'd be one thing if your suit needed fuel to keep supplying you with the nano-bots that heal you over time... but I haven't seen that. You have unlimited use of the Fountain of Youth. Two, the time it takes is nearly always too short, meaning it can be used mid-combat, or between short bursts of combat. Three, you don't have to find or carry anything. There are no supplies to manage in any way and no choices to make.

There are many, many different ways to handle it, some of them almost completely opposite. As long as the system turns health into an important strategic resources for which the player has to make tactical decisions, you've got a good system. But regenerating health isn't a solution at all.

 

[JakobBloch]

Health regeneration is not the worst thing that has ever happened to games. Lets just be clear about that up front. Just because Yahtzee enjoys Doom and Painkiller style games doesn't mean they all have to follow that formular. That being said it is perfectly reasonable to say that health regeneration is missapplied in many cases. Case and point: Bulletstorm. In a game that encourages agressive play styles from every other part of the games reward system, the health system should also reward this behavior. Encouraging pasivity with a HR system goes contrary to the games idea. A health-by-murder style would be better. Perhaps skill shots could heal you BUT do so at the cost of skill-points.

Anyway the point it that different health systems are appropriate for different games. Games in a setting with force fields and powerarmors can use the HR system easily from a setting standpoint. Other titels usually need a little more thought.

A thing I would like to touch on here is what a HR system brings to the mix. One thing it brings is the easier balancing of encounter. if the developer knows you are going to be at full health before every fight the job of balancing the encounter gets a lot easier. This also allows him to make very dificult encounters without fearing that a person low on ressources will find it impossible. Extra credits explains this quite nicely. Another thing it brings to the table is controled boldness in the player. He knows he can get his health back quickly if he gets hit so he is willing to take risks BUT he also knows he needs to stay close to some cover or risk loosing his behind. This makes it ideal for games that encourages slow advance or cover to cover gameplay but with a dash of heroic bravado (say running up and chainsawing a man in half). A last thing (that I can readily think of) is the idea of pinning. I am sure we all know the phrase "they got us pinned down". HR gives this kind of feeling. You are ducking and hiding, unable to bring your own guns to bear and thus giving your enemies time to reposition and maybe flank you. This is a nice tense moment but it also has to end and that is when the regen comes in. When you are at full health and out of the pin at least for now. This also lends itself to cover based games and games using trenches.

The problem is not that there is anything wrong with HR. The problem is that it has been overused and that has been used in games where it really has no place.

 

[carletonman]

Personally I think having regenerating health has led to the explosion of ass-hattery in online play. People don't think to use tactics or skill any more, its just a case of sprinting out, drawing fire, spinning to wherever the fire is coming from and hiding until your health comes back (Exception: hardcore mode in COD4, where if you were shot, you died.).

Recently however, I've been playing the World of Tanks beta, which nicely incorporates a damage model into the game. For example, if I'm driving a tank, and get hit in the tracks, they become damaged, and can even break. Engines and fuel tanks can catch fire, turrets and guns can become jammed, and crew members can be killed from spalling (little metal shards that break off from the inside of a tank during an explosion). Some of these issues can be repaired in time by the crew, but they won't be as effective as they were before. Example: if your turret gets hit and the ring is damaged, it can be repaired, but one of your crew will have to hand-crank it, resulting in a slower traverse speed and longer aiming/reload times. There is also an overall health bar for your tank that doesn't regenerate.

As a result of all of this, most people play smart, forming packs of tanks and most importantly, they work together! While there are other issues with the game, I personally think that shooters can take a page from this game's book when it comes to damage modelling.

 

[cymonsgames]

Anyone play Desktop Dungeons? Health by exploration.

 

[michael87cn]

To reiterate on my original post, there are basically some serious drawbacks to regenerating health.

1) It sucks realism out of the game in more than one way; you can heal from anything from a tank shell, grenade, or just plain bullets and enemies don't really have AI. they don't act like human beings but super-computer androids that know exactly where you are and shoot at you with robotic precision and speed.

2) If you're patient enough you'll never die; if you get impatient and try to take risks you'll usually find yourself looking at a game over screen, you're basically all around punished. The gameplay is artificially slowed down.

3) You have much less leeway to make mistakes, because most games with regenerating health give you very little health in an attempt to make the game playable. You'll often find yourself saying to the screen: WHAT? HOW? WHY? THAT'S BS! etc.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

I think systems like the one Dragon Age uses are really the best way to implement a regenerating health mechanic - have your health and stamina/mana quickly regenerate sure, but only once combat is over. During combat, no health regen for you - suck it up and use those potions/spells/whatnot. That way battles stay hectic, while still allowing you to take the sort of risks that you wouldn't if your health was persistent and never regenerated between fights, and you don't have to worry that you'll blow through all your supplies of healing juice just recovering from your last fight and won't have enough for the next big battle royale waiting around the corner.

It's a far better solution than only allowing one method to freely regain health (usually via sleeping in some safehouse somewhere or whatnot), especially when you factor in compulsive hoarders like myself who will never ever use any expendable item if they can possibly help it, as it saves us an awful lot of boredom and backtracking while not diminishing the "do well or take a dirt nap" aspect of gameplay.

 

[L34dP1LL]

Far Cry 2 had the best healing system: get shot, pull that motherfuckin bullet out. You only had to do it when you're health was really low too.

Holy crap, that's what I was about to say. I loved it when you had to pull a bar from your gut or burn some gunpowder in your arm. It is definitively one of the best health systems in a game. EDIT: I also liked the health system from alone in the dark, I dunno why.