Fallout 4 Eliminates Skills From Character System

[Atmos Duality]

Don't confuse complexity for depth. Complexity in and of itself is not something to strive for. It is only worthwhile when it brings depth. If complexity can be reduced without sacrificing depth, it absolutely should.

This is entirely accurate.
Which is why it's a pity there isn't an ounce of depth in Bethesda's games.

Just because Bethesda is shedding needless complexity between Fallout 3 and Fallout 4, does not mean Fallout 4 will actually be any better as a game. It will most likely be the same boring game as Fallout 3 with some of Skyrim's design elements.

 

[Zulnam]

Might be interesting. After four games, the skill system got way too old for me.

Also, how exactly are they explaining the fact that, even though the Nuclear War happened somewhere around 1950 and the year is 2200+, they somehow seemed to have managed to advance technologically with orbital beam lasers. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a decline of technology?

They forgot that a Nuclear Bomb is bad but orbital laser satellites? Pff, found that blueprint on a rock.

 

[spartan231490]

Good God Bathesda, please don't go the way of bioware. Pretty please. For real, stop dumbing down your games, we like them complex, and thanks to bioware going the way of the casual you're pretty much the only dev still making decent RPG games.

 

[Politrukk]

Take away more variety from my rpg's why don't you.

it's not like Skyrim was a dumbed down version of Morrowind/Oblivion and that being one of the exact points of critique on that game.


I don't get it honestly, when are we going to get games that cater more to indepth choices/play again instead of this malarkey?

 

[Shadowkire]

Take away more variety from my rpg's why don't you.

it's not like Skyrim was a dumbed down version of Morrowind/Oblivion and that being one of the exact points of critique on that game.


I don't get it honestly, when are we going to get games that cater more to indepth choices/play again instead of this malarkey?

When the "indepth" players are numerous enough to support a AAA game by themselves.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

I for one won't miss the skills. When you have a scale of 1-100, it's really hard to see the impact of those tiny increments you go up by each time you level up or use a skill book. With the exception of the hardcoded skill checks for science and lock picking in Fallout 3, there wasn't much to get excited about. Perks are definitely where it's at.

 

[EternallyBored]

Might be interesting. After four games, the skill system got way too old for me.

Also, how exactly are they explaining the fact that, even though the Nuclear War happened somewhere around 1950 and the year is 2200+, they somehow seemed to have managed to advance technologically with orbital beam lasers. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a decline of technology?

They forgot that a Nuclear Bomb is bad but orbital laser satellites? Pff, found that blueprint on a rock.

The war didn't happen until the 2070's, the 1950's stuff is just an aesthetic thing, the game is sort of based on what people in the 1950's thought technology would be like, so the 1950's ended but the U.S. never really culturally changed from that era in the Fallout universe.

The laser satellites, like the Poseidon Energy weapon in New Vegas and the one in the 4 trailer are not new technology, they are pre-war tech that gets rediscovered and utilized. There will be some new technology in 4 since it's based in the Boston area, and FO3 established that the androids from that area were new tech being built by the commonwealth, but pretty much all the other stuff: robots, plasma weapons, cyborgs, power armor, etc. is just repaired pre-war technology. You can see that in the FO4 trailer actually, which has a segment that takes place in the past during the war and you can see that they have vertibirds and power armor, as well as the Mr. Handy robot.

 

[Strazdas]

well that is interesting. while i liked skill system, this might work if done right. but then, i doubt that it will. whats "Right" for me is usually not popular.

Really it doesn't sound so bad, so long as no system they come up with requires me to grind, a la "makes 100,000 leather bracelets to train the Smithing skill."

i never had to grind in Fallout games. in fact i think the skill progression was too fast. i remmeber maxing everything in 3 by the time i was a third into the game. the only time i remmeber grinding anything was fallout 1 (1998) when i killed 10 deathclaws just to level up a bit before the ending. it involved having to kill 2 deathclaws then telling characters to wait so they would respawn.

Also the SPECIAL attributes were kinda meh compared to skills in Fallout games. I never really shouted it over and over but them being more important is nice.

On a side note, there's some interesting stuff on Bethesda's website this blurb doesn't cover. For example, magazines now give you Perks, either advancing ones you can get through regular levels or unlocking totally new ones.

well magazines gave you skills in previuos ones so thats not really new if we change skills for perks.

They did not, in fact there is no level cap and play long enough, you can get EVERY Perk to it's maximum rank and EVERY SPECIAL score to 10. Which is in fact required to get the Perks further down the line.

How do you know this? the no level cap thing if true just doubled my interest in the game.

There's no two ways about it, it's about dumbing down the game for the mainstream.
The less choice you give people, the worse it is, it's that simple.

But its not less choice. Before you could choose out of what, 20 skills? now you can choose out of 77 perks. According to Bethesdas video, its not tiered. so no "necessary progression path" for most.

For now, the only thing I can anticipate is agonizing even longer at the beginning over how to spend my SPECIAL points, in exchange for the occasional "Hmm, how to split up my 18 points this time?"

Not really, since now you can add SPECIAL points when you level up so if you made a mistake it can be quickly fixed.

 

[Auron225]

For now, the only thing I can anticipate is agonizing even longer at the beginning over how to spend my SPECIAL points, in exchange for the occasional "Hmm, how to split up my 18 points this time?"

Not really, since now you can add SPECIAL points when you level up so if you made a mistake it can be quickly fixed.

Oh, well that would give me some peace of mind - but at the same time, I didn't really like how you could get more SPECIAL points in Fallout 3. Does this mean you can get all SPECIAL skills to 10?

See, to me that kills the idea of SPECIAL. I thought it was designed to set up strengths and weaknesses of any character you build. "I'm weak as a kitten but damn clever", "I'm strong as an ox and no smarter than an ox", that kind of thing. To be stupendous at everything kind of takes away from that idea, and I know that you wouldn't be until you're already very far into the game and have levelled up a lot, but it still feels strange to just not have any flaws anymore with enough exp.

 

[Strazdas]

For now, the only thing I can anticipate is agonizing even longer at the beginning over how to spend my SPECIAL points, in exchange for the occasional "Hmm, how to split up my 18 points this time?"

Not really, since now you can add SPECIAL points when you level up so if you made a mistake it can be quickly fixed.

Oh, well that would give me some peace of mind - but at the same time, I didn't really like how you could get more SPECIAL points in Fallout 3. Does this mean you can get all SPECIAL skills to 10?

See, to me that kills the idea of SPECIAL. I thought it was designed to set up strengths and weaknesses of any character you build. "I'm weak as a kitten but damn clever", "I'm strong as an ox and no smarter than an ox", that kind of thing. To be stupendous at everything kind of takes away from that idea, and I know that you wouldn't be until you're already very far into the game and have levelled up a lot, but it still feels strange to just not have any flaws anymore with enough exp.

theoretically, yes. if you completely ignore all perks and put everything into SPECIAL you could get all SPECIAL maxed by level 42. If you pick all perks at least once (they have multiple levels with different benefits), that raises to level 112. If we assume (we dont know) they are using same level system as they did in new vegas, we are talking hundreds of hours of gaming here. so its not like everyone is going to be running out maxed.

do note that in Fallout 3 the level cap was at 30 and in new vegas at 50 (was smaller at launch), so even ignoring all perks is pushing it in comparative levels. And most people wont ignore perks.

 

[Zulnam]

The war didn't happen until the 2070's, the 1950's stuff is just an aesthetic thing, the game is sort of based on what people in the 1950's thought technology would be like, so the 1950's ended but the U.S. never really culturally changed from that era in the Fallout universe.

The laser satellites, like the Poseidon Energy weapon in New Vegas and the one in the 4 trailer are not new technology, they are pre-war tech that gets rediscovered and utilized. There will be some new technology in 4 since it's based in the Boston area, and FO3 established that the androids from that area were new tech being built by the commonwealth, but pretty much all the other stuff: robots, plasma weapons, cyborgs, power armor, etc. is just repaired pre-war technology. You can see that in the FO4 trailer actually, which has a segment that takes place in the past during the war and you can see that they have vertibirds and power armor, as well as the Mr. Handy robot.

Thank you for clearing that up; guess it's been a while since I actually paid attention to the story behind the games. I'm still a bit confused, but it's just nitpicking. Maybe I'm just bored with the crowded, modernized, post-apocalypse.

 

[happyninja42]

Might be interesting. After four games, the skill system got way too old for me.

Also, how exactly are they explaining the fact that, even though the Nuclear War happened somewhere around 1950 and the year is 2200+, they somehow seemed to have managed to advance technologically with orbital beam lasers. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a decline of technology?

They forgot that a Nuclear Bomb is bad but orbital laser satellites? Pff, found that blueprint on a rock.

The war didn't happen until the 2070's, the 1950's stuff is just an aesthetic thing, the game is sort of based on what people in the 1950's thought technology would be like, so the 1950's ended but the U.S. never really culturally changed from that era in the Fallout universe.

The laser satellites, like the Poseidon Energy weapon in New Vegas and the one in the 4 trailer are not new technology, they are pre-war tech that gets rediscovered and utilized. There will be some new technology in 4 since it's based in the Boston area, and FO3 established that the androids from that area were new tech being built by the commonwealth, but pretty much all the other stuff: robots, plasma weapons, cyborgs, power armor, etc. is just repaired pre-war technology. You can see that in the FO4 trailer actually, which has a segment that takes place in the past during the war and you can see that they have vertibirds and power armor, as well as the Mr. Handy robot.

Sorry if this is a repeat question, haven't followed this thread very closely. Did they ever report where chronologically FO 4 takes place in comparison to FO 3 and NV?

 

[Souplex]

Oh, well that would give me some peace of mind - but at the same time, I didn't really like how you could get more SPECIAL points in Fallout 3. Does this mean you can get all SPECIAL skills to 10?

See, to me that kills the idea of SPECIAL. I thought it was designed to set up strengths and weaknesses of any character you build. "I'm weak as a kitten but damn clever", "I'm strong as an ox and no smarter than an ox", that kind of thing. To be stupendous at everything kind of takes away from that idea, and I know that you wouldn't be until you're already very far into the game and have levelled up a lot, but it still feels strange to just not have any flaws anymore with enough exp.

That's just life. There are some people who are just amazing at everything. We're strong, perceptive, durable, charismatic, and intelligent.
Sure, I'm not exactly agile or lucky, but who needs that?

 

[Zen Bard]

So Skyrim removed abilities and classes and added a perk system based on leveled skills. Fallout 4 will remove the skills system and retool the perks to be based on leveled abilities.

Hmmmm...

Could work. Or it could be a complete disaster.

As long as there are no repetitive fetch quests involving dungeon...er...vault...crawls and draugr...I mean...ghouls, I'll wait and give it a try.

Good news is even if the Fallout 4 perk system horribly fails, the modding community will fix everything for us.
Because that's what they did with Bethesda's Skyrim with the mod called Unofficial Skyrim Patch and the other patches for DLCs.

Sure. Unless you're a console weenie like me.

(Sigh) Maybe it's time to build a gaming PC and gave my wife our living room back.

Either way, if Fallout 4i is NOT a complete unmitigated mess, it will require a hardware investment from me.

 

[Politrukk]

predictions combined with nuclear resource wars in 2070+.[/quote]

Take away more variety from my rpg's why don't you.

it's not like Skyrim was a dumbed down version of Morrowind/Oblivion and that being one of the exact points of critique on that game.


I don't get it honestly, when are we going to get games that cater more to indepth choices/play again instead of this malarkey?

When the "indepth" players are numerous enough to support a AAA game by themselves.

It's Fallout 4 , that means it has 3 predecessors, that means it has built up a fanbase to sustain a fourth game, Fallout 3 was already triple A status and it was a hit.

This current successor is built on those who bought the previous game, people liked the depth and variety and wanted more, so why take out depth and variety instead.

 

[MrCatchTwenty2]

"But its not an RPG if its not over-complicated and stupid. How DARE they make games like Skyrim, with organic level up systems as opposed the broken calculus of TRUE RPGS! Don't they know that everyone HATED Skyrim!?!"

They fixed the shit shooting and got rid of something that was useless.

 

[kenu12345]

There's no two ways about it, it's about dumbing down the game for the mainstream.
The less choice you give people, the worse it is, it's that simple.

But its not less choice. Before you could choose out of what, 20 skills? now you can choose out of 77 perks. According to Bethesdas video, its not tiered. so no "necessary progression path" for most.

20 skills and 80 perks. Yeah, its less choice

 

[EternallyBored]

Might be interesting. After four games, the skill system got way too old for me.

Also, how exactly are they explaining the fact that, even though the Nuclear War happened somewhere around 1950 and the year is 2200+, they somehow seemed to have managed to advance technologically with orbital beam lasers. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a decline of technology?

They forgot that a Nuclear Bomb is bad but orbital laser satellites? Pff, found that blueprint on a rock.

The war didn't happen until the 2070's, the 1950's stuff is just an aesthetic thing, the game is sort of based on what people in the 1950's thought technology would be like, so the 1950's ended but the U.S. never really culturally changed from that era in the Fallout universe.

The laser satellites, like the Poseidon Energy weapon in New Vegas and the one in the 4 trailer are not new technology, they are pre-war tech that gets rediscovered and utilized. There will be some new technology in 4 since it's based in the Boston area, and FO3 established that the androids from that area were new tech being built by the commonwealth, but pretty much all the other stuff: robots, plasma weapons, cyborgs, power armor, etc. is just repaired pre-war technology. You can see that in the FO4 trailer actually, which has a segment that takes place in the past during the war and you can see that they have vertibirds and power armor, as well as the Mr. Handy robot.

Sorry if this is a repeat question, haven't followed this thread very closely. Did they ever report where chronologically FO 4 takes place in comparison to FO 3 and NV?

The prologue starts right when the bombs fell, so technically the game starts in October of 2077. The bulk of the game however, takes place somewhere between 200-300 years after the war, so well after Fallout 1 (2161) and 2 (2241), and possibly at the same time as 3 (2277) or right around New Vegas (2281).

The only concrete information we have right now is from the trailer where the Mr. Handy robot Codsworth tells the main character that it's been over 200 years since the war, Fallout 3 takes place exactly 200 years after the war in 2277, so it's likely the game takes place a few years after that. So it's probably only a few years after 3 and either before or right after New Vegas. Anything more than that we'll have to wait to find out.

If I had to guess, I would say the game takes place sometime between 2277 and 2300.

 

[Strazdas]

There's no two ways about it, it's about dumbing down the game for the mainstream.
The less choice you give people, the worse it is, it's that simple.

But its not less choice. Before you could choose out of what, 20 skills? now you can choose out of 77 perks. According to Bethesdas video, its not tiered. so no "necessary progression path" for most.

20 skills and 80 perks. Yeah, its less choice

not if you account for different effects of perk levels. as in, from what it looks like now most of perk levels are not like skills but like perks that unlock after previuos perk is unlocked. for example if a perk has 3 levels thats 3 different effects you are going to have. so assuming bethesdas number is correct its more like 270 perks, just not all at the same time. Of course some are going to be progression skill like perks. we saw sneaking perk that is 5 levels of 20%.

We still got too little information to really judge variety here. ALso remmeber that if i heard things correctly there is another 100 unique perks from magazines hidden throughout the world.

But its not less choice. Before you could choose out of what, 20 skills? now you can choose out of 77 perks. According to Bethesdas video, its not tiered. so no "necessary progression path" for most.

I see what you mean, but you're forgetting that you can make very different characters based on those 20 skills (or however many there are). It's not a fair comparison at all mate.

With Fallout 3 they already dumbed it down, but this is going all the way.
I get why, it's for the large amount of console players who just want to jump in and enjoy the game for a while and that's fine, but I really hate this. It takes almost all the fun out of planning your character, which to be honest, kind of died with Fallout 3...

why do you think you cannot make a very different character based on what perks you choose in fallout 4?

I cant say i was a very keen player but i played both the old fallouts and the new ones and i liked both. they were different, but they were still fun to play for me.

I do get what you mean by removal of character planning now that you can easily (well, relatively, still takes 42 levels to max it) boost special where needed. but for me personally thats more of a relief because im the kind of player that wants to max everything and has nightmares when i cant (i dont cheat though, even though i could mod the stats up i prefer not to, more fun to play without it).

The only concrete information we have right now is from the trailer where the Mr. Handy robot Codsworth tells the main character that it's been over 200 years since the war, Fallout 3 takes place exactly 200 years after the war in 2277, so it's likely the game takes place a few years after that. So it's probably only a few years after 3 and either before or right after New Vegas. Anything more than that we'll have to wait to find out.

If I had to guess, I would say the game takes place sometime between 2277 and 2300.

i wonder about the environments though. are the plantlife going to be regrowing now and if it takes so close to fallout 3 how its going to contrast with the grey landscape that one had.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Did they ever report where chronologically FO 4 takes place in comparison to FO 3 and NV?

F4 takes place in the same year as F3. F4 takes place in the same state where the F3 expansion; Point Lookout is set.

OT; It does seem like that the new system is similar to Skyrims. Though despite the many options, I always played Skyrim the same; I largely ignored the magical talents (except Conjuration [2 Dremora is awesome]), I reckon there will be skills for F4 that revolve around companions (specifically, the dog [what is it with animal companions anyway?]) that I will largely ignore because the A.I is less than stellar.