Fallout 4 Eliminates Skills From Character System

[WonkyWarmaiden]

How about the doomsayers in this thread actually wait to see more info on the system before you guys actually judge it? I get being wary but I don't think judging something without seeing an in depth example is a good idea.

I am seeing the info right now and I am not liking it. I hate this sort of argument. Its not productive at all.

Yes, because immediately hating on a game because it has a few new features is super productive.

I'm just saying that people shouldn't judge Fallout 4 before they actually play it themselves and see how the system fully works in the game.

 

[immortalfrieza]

With lockpick and science, the hard targets (25/50/75/100) made nuance pointless (and forcing is a lock-out risk I never took, it's also pointless when you can just keep resetting; if you fail the force you're either save scumming or walking away), but outside of that I can agree. Even so I don't think many people will miss subtle differences.

I don't think many people will miss the subtle differences either, especially since so many people are ignorant that those subtle differences even exist, however I know those differences were there and unless this new leveling system somehow mimics that I know I will definitely miss them.

Fewer skill points would fix the late game problem but would starve characters in early and mid game. Grinding levels just to get some decent skills doesn't sound like fun. I like the sound of a wholesome perk system that gives me tons of choices without complication and sacrifice.

The perk system will have a lot of complication and sacrifice. You'll have to take one perk or one level of a perk every single level and forgo any that you don't currently have the SPECIAL stat points for, sometimes forgoing perks just to raise a SPECIAL stat for later. All this means is you'll have a ton of choices many of which you'll have to give up until you level up an excessive number of times.

BTW, the answer to that "starving for skill points" issue is to increase the number of skill points given at lower levels and significantly decrease them at higher levels as the player gets used to the game more and more and thus can compensate for skills in other ways like better equipment, this would also deal with DLC unlocked levels eventually coming into play.

A use system would be welcome, minus the leveling part, for accuracy and making you efficient with everything. Enough time with a revolver should make you the fastest gun in the wasteland, but you should still have to learn the finer points of rifle shooting.

I greatly enjoy a EXP leveling system as simply killing multiple enemies and completing quests getting EXP for it, leveling up and assigning skill points to improve my ability to shoot, I have to actually play the game to get good at it. I have a massive problem with a usage system because with that I could do some simple exploit like take a 9mm pistol, find a Super Mutant Behemoth, get to a spot out of it's reach and shoot a Super Mutant Behemoth a thousand times to max out my guns skill, and then go find say a molerat and just stand there letting a it chew on me for a few hours healing every couple seconds to max out my medicine skill, and so on. A usage system sounds more realistic in theory but not in practice, at least the way Bethesda has used it so far.It's tedious, boring, doesn't make the player actually have to DO anything to get good at anything, and makes the rest of the game much worse as a result. What's worse is that the usage system punishes the player for not using these sorts of exploits because otherwise you'll suck at pretty much everything you try to do for a very long time, especially at earlier levels and with the earlier Elder Scrolls games. I always looked for and used exp leveling mods for Elder Scrolls games precisely for this reason and just how much it improves the games is ridiculous, the difference is night and day and Fallout starts out just that much better. The more I can just sit back, relax, and just play a game and the less I have to worry about what skills my character is using and just use them whenever I want or need to the better.

This is why I can live with the perk system despite the potential caveats, I don't have to constantly worry about what I'm doing, I can just DO things and let playing the game progress naturally as a result.

 

[kenu12345]

How about the doomsayers in this thread actually wait to see more info on the system before you guys actually judge it? I get being wary but I don't think judging something without seeing an in depth example is a good idea.

I am seeing the info right now and I am not liking it. I hate this sort of argument. Its not productive at all.

Yes, because immediately hating on a game because it has a few new features is super productive.

I'm just saying that people shouldn't judge Fallout 4 before they actually play it themselves and see how the system fully works in the game.

This is not new features, this is re doing the system that I like about the game

 

[Rastrelly]

This change is shite, fellow escapists.

I still maintain that it's too soon to know that. However, whether the change is shite or not has nothing to do with whether it's an RPG or not. This sounds more like a "they changed it, now it sucks" argument than whether or not it is an RPG. Which is fine, thought I personally find it needlessly reactionary. Just don't dress it up as "this isn't an RPG."

Heh, I don't base my 'not-an-RPG' statement on the fact of skill removal; on the contrary, I thinks skill removal is kind of cementation of that fact. Fallout 3 could barely scratch the bottom of RPG definition; it had basically zero roleplaying value with options boiling don to "Gimme moneh!!!1111" / "Naaaah, keep yer moneh" or "Blow da bomb!!!!111" / "Disarm da bomb". It's not roleplaying. These chioces can be present in RPG, but they don't make an RPG. Fallout 3 mechanics do not support actual roleplaying unless you crank the difficulty to absurdly low level (thus eliminating all the remains of challenge) and then stop using anything but 3 or 4 skills you've chosen. You cannot BUILD a character, you always gaet an allmighty Thor who, for some reason, gets worse and worse at actually killing enemies. The rest of ckills - not combat-oriented - are, in fact, useless, due to nature of this game; you do not need speech, you do not need barter. You can basically choose go all HP or go all sneak in the beginning with getting both ways fully operational at level 15+-.

New Vegas partially fixed it with much more skill checks in dialogs, highly raising the role of dialogs in gameplay, building all quests around pacifist solutions and so on (I don't remember a single quest in NV that would demand you to kill someone except, I think, that mission with Fiend leaders). While this solution works only partially, it actually makes NV a proper RPG with some serious flaws.

But now, getting to Fallout 4, you can see the same process one could observe with Skyrim - throwing away essential mechanics in favor of 'simplicity and focus on main stuff', which more or less means NO ROLEPLAYING FOCUS. You can try to roleplay if you want in Skyrim - but this way you can do even in Quake, and this doesn't make Quake a proper RPG. Proper RPG enforces roleplaying, it makes playing certain role a better option then not playing one. Fallout 3 failed at that department, Skyrim failed at that department, and, I am sure, Fallout 4 will fail at that department, because the path Bethesda has chosen for their games is pretty much obvious.

And the worst part - even mods won't be able to fix that.

 

[croc3629]

The system needs to have more than one perk per level of SPECIAL stat to encourage differences even among those with similarly built characters, and to make it much harder to go for a master of all build.

Also, the perks themselves need to be real game changers. Not just number modifiers. Stuff that really changes the way your character interacts with the world.

The issue here is not the skills, but keeping what the skills represented in this format. Tying it to SPECIAL is something I'm willing to try, but flawed if the perks themselves are lackluster.

I would also have wished that there was a level limit in this game as well, combined with a doubling of the perk numbers. That would help to further ensure players really thoughht about their perk choice while leveling up.

Still, won't matter if the game is mechanically sound if the body has no soul. That's what I'm really waiting for. If at least a low intelligence character doesn't get special dialogue, then I have no idea what the hell all those recorded lines were for.

Why in the hell did Fallout of all games need a voiced protagonist? Why is it so important these days? Who is going to care? That is something I could rant about for ages and is potentially far more damaging to the experience. This though? This could have some potential, if the perks are not braindead.

 

[IceForce]

Well at least we're moving back to the old kind of shitstorms.

Already we're seeing the good old "No True Scotsman" fallacy being trotted out in terms of what constitutes an RPG and a genre being declared dead because of changes because apparently the old ways were always better.

I don't even understand why it's even an argument. Okay, so, the game is now a different genre I guess? And that's a bad thing, how?

Have our complaints really gotten so base that we're now complaining that we can't pigeonhole a particular video game? I just don't get it.

 

[Rastrelly]

Well at least we're moving back to the old kind of shitstorms.

Already we're seeing the good old "No True Scotsman" fallacy being trotted out in terms of what constitutes an RPG and a genre being declared dead because of changes because apparently the old ways were always better.

I don't even understand why it's even an argument. Okay, so, the game is now a different genre I guess? And that's a bad thing, how?

Have our complaints really gotten so base that we're now complaining that we can't pigeonhole a particular video game? I just don't get it.

Need for Speed is a racer. Doom is a shooter. Fallout is an RPG. Want make it a different genre? Release a spinoff.

 

[EternallyBored]

The perks were always better game changers than the skills from 3 onwards. Skills in 3 were either incremental improvements that were often only noticeable in increased VATS hit chances or more HP healed, handy but often times I could barely tell what was being improved and by how much. It didn't help that the skills system heavily rewarded and favored INT heavy builds

Others were just hardline increases at 25 point intervals which sometimes left you with the absolutely shitty situation where you dump all your points into lockpicking or science and fall just short of the 25 point threshold, meaning your level up was basically just setting yourself up with 0 improvements until the next level up, and if you didn't get a perk that level then the entire level up screen was basically pointless except to increase a separate meter in anticipation for the level after that one where you actually get something useful.

Skills in 3 and NV were mostly worthless nonsense, and they either needed extensive changes or to be part of a new system, they just don't work outside of a turn-based system where everything can be calculated in percentages. Whether this new system is the improvement the Fallout leveling system has desperately needed since 3, or an even worse alternative, remains to be seen.

I am a bit confused by people talking about Skyrim's leveling system being shit and using the fact that leveling mods quickly came out to fix some people's perceived problems with the system as some sort of proof of this. That's been true of every Elder Scrolls game since Morrowind, there have always been people who have wanted to change the way the leveling works, people hated the Morrowind system, then the Oblivion system, then the Skyrim system, different people, different complaints, but leveling system changes have always been some of the first mods to hit after a Bethesda game launches, only UI fixes come out faster.

I remember some of the first mods out for Morrowind were to fix those fucking stupid attribute multipliers you got on level up which could cripple your attributes if you didn't plan the skills you improved on your way to the next level. It resulted in seriously dumb situations like getting lower multipliers because athletics got leveled up one too many times while trying to improve your magic, or jumping a couple times and having your acrobatics skill increasing fuck up getting the strength multiplier you wanted. The Skyrim system has problems, but at least I didn't have to purposely avoid leveling up skills in order to increase my stats efficiently, especially acrobatics and athletics which always messed up the multipliers just by walking around or jumping too much.

 

[Auron225]

For now, the only thing I can anticipate is agonizing even longer at the beginning over how to spend my SPECIAL points, in exchange for the occasional "Hmm, how to split up my 18 points this time?"

I may try & decide (based on what perks are available within each attribute) how to build my character before I ever get the game.

 

[GladiatorUA]

This might work, it also might not.

As long as they don't Skyrimize it, it should be fine. Skyrim perks sucked so very hard. Fallout3/NV Perk system was much better. On the other hand, now some perks are hidden behind other perks which would definitely suck for some builds.

I just Hope they don't remove the option of reading magazines and chemming up for certain dialogue options.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Well at least we're moving back to the old kind of shitstorms.

Already we're seeing the good old "No True Scotsman" fallacy being trotted out in terms of what constitutes an RPG and a genre being declared dead because of changes because apparently the old ways were always better.

I feel like people put too much into certain systems.

That old Rush lyric, "Changes aren't permanent, but change is" is a hell of a thing ain't it?

OT: I'm amused, once again, by all of the pre-emptive doom saying and moaning about a game no one has even played yet. We can all do the same whining about how the game is so different from what it has been; but, until the day when we can actually play the game, I give no shits about about the game and other people's opinion about it one way or the other. After all, there's still the chance the game can be changed down the road.

...and then, obviously, the chance for more bitching at that, too.

 

[PapaGreg096]

I don't see the dumbing down, what was the concept of putting a ton of numbers into a category was considered smart.

 

[tacotrainwreck]

It's times like this where I'm glad I didn't jump on the pre-order bandwagon. I'll be waiting for it to actually release so I can weigh all the changes before I decide to probably not buy it.

 

[Zen Bard]

So Skyrim removed abilities and classes and added a perk system based on leveled skills. Fallout 4 will remove the skills system and retool the perks to be based on leveled abilities.

Hmmmm...

Could work. Or it could be a complete disaster.

As long as there are no repetitive fetch quests involving dungeon...er...vault...crawls and draugr...I mean...ghouls, I'll wait and give it a try.

 

[Veldel]

And another note for the whiners bleating about "dumbing down..." FO 3 and NV improved on the formula of 1 and 2. I said it, and it's true. Every character in 1 and 2 had to go down the same path or die. Level small guns early, learn power armor, and then learn big guns or energy weapons. Because you needed power armor and big guns or energy weapons to beat the super mutants and power armor soldiers. It was a more linear system for creating varied versions of the exact same hero. However, in FO3 and NV it was not only possible to beat the game without power armor and big guns or energy weapons (as it was possible but rarer and more difficult in 1 and 2) it was actually a viable build. I was so bored with FO characters ending the game with power armor and big guns/energy weapons that my first characters in 3 and NV went the entire game without ever getting power armor or big guns or energy weapons. And as we all know, you take a more cautious and tactical approach (less kick down the door and smash) and this is a character "build" that is easily valid and can even be overpowered. We went from "the player makes different versions of the same hero" to "allowing the player to be whatever kind of hero he would like." I guess you could call that "dumbing down" I would classify it aas making it a better RPG. And again, accepting that it's possible the changes to 4 could be bad, I also recognize that changes to the series up to this point have been way more good than bad. I'll give Bethesda the benefit of the doubt.

actually you don't need that in Fallout 1 or 2 I watched my friend play his first playthrough with nothing but fists and speech. He never used a gun even against muties.
Honestly it duesnt matter much to me if it sucks il just wait for a mod on pc to fix it.

I just hope the game has a better story then 3 or skyrim

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

Looks to me that it's about giving the player better choice and an easier time of planning ahead. But screw Bethesda for wanting more people to enjoy their game, am I right?

Whether you like it or not, you're right. Mainstreaming is a sound business decision, but it's horrible for the IP and often the gameplay.

I'd argue mainstreaming generally improves gameplay, but I concede it tends to hurt in other areas. Like with Mass Effect the third game has the most fun gameplay but worst story (well, tied with 2 at least but no where near as good as 1). And then there is the Witcher series, it has become more mainstream with each game and I very much doubt there are many Witcher 1 purists bitching about Witcher 3's improved gameplay.

 

[Caffiene]

So essentially now I have the choice of whether I want to be effective in combat or to do fun stuff like Bloody Mess, instead of being able to do each separately? Woooo what an improvement that sounds like!

 

[Frankster]

I'm neutral like the swiss on this topic.

I'll need to see the perks in question and how many of them there are before I jump to conclusions, my main fear being that there won't be enough of them to make levelling feel satisfying or that it would be too much like skyrim perks, which imo was somewhat lacking and one of the first mods I always get it something to make the perk tree more interesting.

Levelling is at least 20% of the fun in rpgs! xP So yeah will have to wait and see on this.

 

[AntiChri5]

When I think about all the time I've spent hemming and hawing over how to split up eighteen points across five skills, something with a little less busywork can sound appealing.

[silently boils inside]

Meaningful decision-making, the cornerstone of any computer RPG. Is a bad thing.

I want to go kick something.

Meaningful decision making is great, but all too often applying points to a chart feels pretty meaningless. But, then, I also think statistical busywork in tabletop RPGs is usually a waste of time too.

I was always a fan of more game complexity, not less - especially considering Fallout 2 was my favorite game for a long while, seeing one of the crucial elements of the game stripped away in favor of a World of Warcraft type of system is especially depressing.

Almost makes me want to wish we lived in an alternate universe where Interplay didn't sell the Fallout rights to Bethesda and instead kept them and used them for a Kickstarter a la Pillars of Eternity, making Fallout 3 a glorious isometric CRPG like in the old days.

No, Wasteland 2 isn't as good.

Don't confuse complexity for depth. Complexity in and of itself is not something to strive for. It is only worthwhile when it brings depth. If complexity can be reduced without sacrificing depth, it absolutely should.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

I really enjoyed skills! D:

Come on... :c